The Pentax "shopping cart" or the Nikon "shopping cart"?

FutureSailor

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I am deciding between a Pentax K100D and a Nikon D40. I have no old equipment so am starting from scratch. My immediate need is for equipment that I can use on our Med cruise this summer in museums and churches (indoors, low light, no flash situations). In the long run, I'll use the camera for the ordinary family photo opportunities--birthdays, Christmas, trips to WDW, the kids' band concerts, the dog in the backyard . . .

Pricing things at Amazon (for a rough starting point--I'll look at some of the on-line specialty stores recommended here before I actually purchase) here is what I am considering:

The Pentax shopping cart:
Pentax K100D 6.1MP Digital SLR Camera Shake Reduction (Body Only) - $479.95

Pentax SMCP-FA 50mm f/1.4 Lens - $218.29

Pentax DA 50-200mm f/4-5.6 ED Lens for Pentax and Samsung DSLR Cameras - $249.95

Pentax AF 360 FGZ Flash for Pentax and Samsung Digital SLR Cameras (w/ case) - $196.95

Subtotal: $1,145.14 minus $225 rebates: $920.14


The Nikon shopping cart:

Nikon D40 6.1MP Digital SLR Camera Kit with 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G ED II AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor Lens - $549.83

Nikon 50mm f/1.4D AF Nikkor Lens for Nikon Digital SLR Cameras - $289.99

Nikon SB-400 AF Speedlight for Nikon Digital SLR Cameras - $116.25

Total: $956.07
 
Dont buy a D40. It wont autofocus with Non AF-S / AF-I lenses with built in motors. The D40 was crippled by removing the internal camera body motor to force people into the more expensive lenses with built in motors.

This Nikon 50mm f/1.4D AF WILL NOT autofocus on the D40.



Look at a D50 or D70/D80 instead.

For the money I would pick:

Nikon D50
Tamron 28-75mm f/2.8 di $379
Sigma EF-500 flash $239 or Nikon SB600 $185
 
I am a Nikon guy, but I would agree. Don't get the D40, look for a D50. Right now there are only a handful of lenses that will auto focus on the on D40. In about 6 months that could be different.

That being said, the D40 is a great camera, and the D40x is even better, so if you want the Nikon, go for it, and hope that in a few months when you go to get more lenses they will have plenty. I ready that Sigma is working on many lenses for this camera, and nikon is too.
 
As a K100 owner myself I can't help but say the Pentax would be a great choice, any reason you don't have the kit lens in your Pentax list? You can get the body only from Beachcamera for $460 and w/ the 18-55 kit lens for $535. If you only get a 50mm prime and the 50-200 I can guarantee you're going to be wishing you also got the kit lens. Personally, I would start out with the kit lens only and spend a few weeks getting used to the camera, that may help you decide what range you really need. There have been posts on here about the most used focal ranges during vacations and the 28-75 range seems to get mentioned a lot, that's a lens range I've considered buying myself. I have both the 18-55 and 50-200 but I may sell my 18-55 (for me at the time it was only $17 more to go to the body w/kit lens) and get either a Tamron 28-75 or the Sigma 18-125.

I'm not that familiar with the D40 but from what little I've read about it I think you'd be getting much more value with the K100, and the built-in image stabilization is a feature that's very expensive to get in a lens if you go the Nikon or Canon route.
 

As a Nikon shooter, I wouldn't recomment the D40 either. Not enough camera there is grow into with several limitations that I don't like.

Like the others have said the D50 would be a better choice, although I've been pretty impressed with the specs on the Pentax and owners of the camera have been generally happy with their choice. Have you taken a look at the D80? A lot more camera!!
 
If your looking at the K100D and the D40 then hands down the K100D. I am a Nikon shooter, have been since the late 80's. My current model is the D50. The D50 and the K100D are more alike. I don't feel comfortable recommending a D40 to people because of its small size and the auto focus issues with non-AF-S lenses.

If you can find a D50 (they are still out there) it is a great camera. Its a little bigger in size than the Pentax. In my hands the Nikon is a better fit.

I do have to say that Pentax is making some great camera's right now and as much as I think everyone should use Nikon, I certainly don't blame anyone for going to Pentax. I know Groucho and the others would argue against, but I think Nikon has a better available zoom lens line. Granted Pentax' 18-55mm kit lens is probably a bit better than Nikon's, but Nikon has the 18-70mm which is great and the 18-135mm which is a great affordable walk-around lens. Not to mention the 18-200mm VR lens. Pentax has a great 50mm f/1.4, but Nikon also has one along with the 50mm f/1.8 which is less money. From what I've seen, 3rd party lenses don't make as many mounts for Pentax as they do Nikon and Canon and many times the Pentax mounts are a bit more.

Pentax does have a great line of prime lenses and their older lenses have less issues with todays camera's compared to some much older Nikkor lenses.

All in all you really aren't going to go wrong with either. I like the idea of the IS built into the body, but I would be more comfortable with it after another 3-5 years of hearing about it having no issues (other makers have had issues with in body IS on a dSLR body). Some of the experts out there in photo world say that have IS/VR in a lens is better than in body. I'm no expert and don't really know one way or the other. Again, once in body IS has been around longer we'll have a much better understanding.

Good luck with your shopping.
 
I just checked the most recent Pentax rebate offer and I see they have a bundled rebate offer which gives you a $150 rebate for both the body and 50-200 vs $100 individually so I understand why you have that combo in your list vs the 18-55. For that extra $50 I would say it's definitely worth it to get the 50-200 (if you go with Pentax, that is) but I still think you're going to be disappointed if you don't get a second lens that covers you on the wider end because you're going to have a lot of missed shots. IMO, for an extra $75 it's still worth it to get the 18-55 along with the 50-200, this combination along with your prime will be great for your trip. If you decide after your trip it's not the perfect setup you don't have a lot invested in the kit lens.
 
When I started my search for cameras, I immediately assumed I would get a Canon Rebel Xti (I have a Rebel SLR). However, when I tried it in the store, I did not like that camera at all. So, I went back to the drawing board and did tons of research. On paper, I was very drawn to the Pentax K100D and went into a camera store planning to buy it. But once I tried it, it just wasn't a good fit. Others on this board take beautiful pictures with this camera and that along with the reviews was part of the attraction to me. However, in my inept hands, it just didn't measure up. The autofocus seemed to always be hunting and the buffer filled up too quickly. My kids play sports and are well, just kids. So, I often take several pictures in a row and in that regard found the Pentax lacking since the buffer fills up so quickly. So, for some, it is the perfect camera. Personally, I went with Nikon D80. I looked at the D50 which is a great camera. But the D80 just had a few little extras that I liked. But they are pure luxuries and not necessary for taking great pictures. For me, the real selling point on the Nikon was their lens choices. I went with the 18-200VR which is a great "mom lens". Of course, you will sacrifice some image quality for the great focal range. But it really is convenient when you are chasing little kids all over the place to be able to snap away without having to change lenses. You can take a great landscape picture and immediately zoom in on one of your kids for a closeup. So, my vote is for Nikon!
 
When I started my search for cameras, I immediately assumed I would get a Canon Rebel Xti (I have a Rebel SLR). However, when I tried it in the store, I did not like that camera at all. So, I went back to the drawing board and did tons of research. On paper, I was very drawn to the Pentax K100D and went into a camera store planning to buy it. But once I tried it, it just wasn't a good fit. Others on this board take beautiful pictures with this camera and that along with the reviews was part of the attraction to me. However, in my inept hands, it just didn't measure up. The autofocus seemed to always be hunting and the buffer filled up too quickly. My kids play sports and are well, just kids. So, I often take several pictures in a row and in that regard found the Pentax lacking since the buffer fills up so quickly. So, for some, it is the perfect camera. Personally, I went with Nikon D80. I looked at the D50 which is a great camera. But the D80 just had a few little extras that I liked. But they are pure luxuries and not necessary for taking great pictures. For me, the real selling point on the Nikon was their lens choices. I went with the 18-200VR which is a great "mom lens". Of course, you will sacrifice some image quality for the great focal range. But it really is convenient when you are chasing little kids all over the place to be able to snap away without having to change lenses. You can take a great landscape picture and immediately zoom in on one of your kids for a closeup. So, my vote is for Nikon!


The OP is deciding between a K100D and a D40, not a D80. I doubt that you will find anyone that would pick the Pentax in your situation. Did you also look at the K10D, b/c it is the same level as the D80 and I would take it over the Nikon. I actually was torn between the D50 and the K100D, as both felt good in my hands, but ended up with the K100D b/c it simply is more for the money. Also, I will likely never be able to convince my DW that a $1K lens is worth it, so Pentax was my best bet for IS.

Kevin
 
The OP is deciding between a K100D and a D40, not a D80. I doubt that you will find anyone that would pick the Pentax in your situation. Did you also look at the K10D, b/c it is the same level as the D80 and I would take it over the Nikon. I actually was torn between the D50 and the K100D, as both felt good in my hands, but ended up with the K100D b/c it simply is more for the money and I will likely never be able to convince my DW that a $1K lens is worth it, so Pentax was my best bet for IS.

Kevin

I was aware of the K100D vs. the D40. I only mentioned the D80 as being my choice and referred to the D50 as an option in the OP's price point. The Pentax K10D was not available at the time I was looking at new cameras. I read the specs, but at that time they were not sure of its release date.
 
Yes, it's really not fair to compare the K100D and the D80, especially considering the yawning chasm in price between the two. (Like, twice as much.) Not only in terms of features, but also size and feel. In other words, because you liked the D80 better than the K100D, that doesn't mean that it's a foregone conclusion to prefer the D40 (or D50) over the K100D.

Like the others, I'd agree that a D50 is preferable to a D40, if you can find one. Presumably the price will be pretty similar. Looking at the original price list, the Pentax setup still gets you a 50-200mm lens and a more powerful flash. (Sigma makes a cheaper P-TTL flash if you want to shave off a few more pennies.)

Handicap18 said:
I know Groucho and the others would argue against, but I think Nikon has a better available zoom lens line. Granted Pentax' 18-55mm kit lens is probably a bit better than Nikon's, but Nikon has the 18-70mm which is great and the 18-135mm which is a great affordable walk-around lens. Not to mention the 18-200mm VR lens. Pentax has a great 50mm f/1.4, but Nikon also has one along with the 50mm f/1.8 which is less money. From what I've seen, 3rd party lenses don't make as many mounts for Pentax as they do Nikon and Canon and many times the Pentax mounts are a bit more.
I actually wouldn't disagree with much of that. Pentax high-end zooms are an area they lack behind C/N, but I believe they are filling in those gaps. They do have a cheap 75-300mm (or is it 70-300mm?) and a 16-45mm that's supposed to be very nice, and they have the new "fast" lenses coming out soon that are very high-end and fairly pricey. But historically, they've definitely favored primes.

I don't think that it's THAT common for third-party lenses to have much difference in price, and occasionally they're cheaper - sometimes a great deal cheaper, like with the Pentax-designed Tokina 10-17mm fisheye - the C/N mount Tokina is somewhere around $500, but the Pentax-produced one has a $100 rebate and can be had for somewhere about $375. You also have backwards lens compatibility that is second to none (including focus confirmation on all of 'em, even 30+ year old screw-mount lenses), so you can pick up some wonderful lenses from used camera stores, or from father-in-laws who have a Pentax sitting in the closet, like someone else here recently did. :)

Anyway, to sum up.
The advantages of the Nikon: more lenses available, bigger buffer
The advantages of the Pentax: cheaper, generally very high-quality lenses (and unique ones like the tiny "pancake" Limited lenses), built-in image stabilization

I think the combination of the price advantage and the image stabilization is a powerful one. There are also more minor things, like the face of the Pentax kit lens not rotating during focusing, so a circular polarizer can be used more easily, and there's a couple basic features that the D50 lacks that the K100D has - but darn it, I can't remember. I know the Rebels lack spot metering, there's something similar that the D50s lack... argh... my memory is failing me. It's been a long day. :) Oh, and the Nikons require some proprietary remote shutter release, you can't cobble one together yourself for $3 in parts and a Tic-Tac container. :laughing:

Really, though, both cameras are great and very similar, the IS is the main distinguishing characteristic. And it can potentially save a lot of money as you buy more lenses.
 
I'm not a big fan of Pentax, but if I were making the choices exactly as listed, I'd go with the Pentax. The problem with your Nikon gear choices are that your focal range is a measily 18-55. Even with the 1.5x crop factor, that's the 35mm equivalent of a 82.5mm lens on the long end.

I'd think about buying a Nikon (other than the D40) or Canon and renting some good glass.
 
I'm not a big fan of Pentax, but if I were making the choices exactly as listed, I'd go with the Pentax. The problem with your Nikon gear choices are that your focal range is a measily 18-55. Even with the 1.5x crop factor, that's the 35mm equivalent of a 82.5mm lens on the long end.

I'd think about buying a Nikon (other than the D40) or Canon and renting some good glass.
Mark, you've definitely made it clear that you don't care for the Pentaxes - but is there any reason other than your feelings on "going pro" or the lens line-up? For the vast, vast majority of DSLR buyers, there are no intentions of going pro (especially since most people are well-served with the "entry-level" DSLRs - K100D, D50, XTi - and have no need to go for a mid/high-tier like a K10D, D80, 30D), and it's unlikely that someone won't be able to find a lens to fit their needs in a Pentax mount.

It just seems like you have a grudge against them beyond the simple fact that they don't offer a camera in the $2,000+ range (until their digital MF arrives, but that'll probably be closer to $10,000.)

C'mon, we're all friends here, open up and tell us the truth. Did a Pentax salesman hit on your sister or something? ;)
 
No grudge. It's just the limited system and market share. I guess I saw too many Minolta fans hung out to dry with every epxensive gear when Minolta failed to make the DSLR switch.

For the segmenet of the market they are in and for what they offer now, I think they are reasonably good choice. However, I see buying into a camera system as a long term investment. Here are the reasons why I'd go with C/N:

1) They're more likely to be around 10 years from now. If you're going to invest $1K in a system, it probably doesn't matter. If you're going to invest $10K in bodies and lenses, you want to be sure that they'll be there will into the future. Given Pentaxes tiny DSLR market share, they are a much greater risk.

2) Their lineup is small. Canon and Nikon have a much better array of available lens and accessories. Once again, it's a market share thing. If Pentax grows their share, this will change as well. If they don't, it won't.

3) The equipment is less available. Someone just posted a thread on a lens rental company. There are several online companies that rent lenses. From what I've seen, they all rent Canon and Nikon mount equipment but nothing else. Of the photographers that I know, every single one that has interesting equipment (stuff other than the basics) shoots with Nikon or Canon. That makes for a much better pool for borrowing equipment.

4) It's what everyone else knows and uses. If you go to a photography workshop, you can practically guarantee that the instructor(s) will be experts with C/N equipment and will be able to teach you new things about how to use your camera. If you have a problem with your Pentax, you're probably on your own.

5) The pro thing. There are lots and lots of professional "35mm" photographers. In the past couple of months, I've met professional sports photographers, professional wildlife photographers, and professional landscape photographers. These are all people that make a living at what they do. Few of them got into photography expecting to make it a career. All of them shot with Nikon or Canon equipment. If they had started with Pentax systems, they would have taken a large financial hit switching systems.

I know that computers are a bad analogy for cameras, but I see the Pentax as possibly being like the old Amiga computers. They were good for what they did, but the market wasn't there. Anyone that committed time and money to an Amiga eventually lost out and switched to something else. I think that there is a risk that the Pentax system will go the same way.

As decent as they are, I don't see it being worth taking the risk for anyone that intends to get serious about photography as a hobby. If you plan to drop $1,000 on a system and you fully expect it to be all you need for the next 10 years, the Pentax makes sense. If you are just starting with photography and think that you want to be serious about it, I think you are much better off with one of the two dominant players in the market.
 
op, i wondered why you aren't considering canon as well? or maybe you did and decided against it...just wondered why you limited yourself...

before you purchase, if you haven't, go handle them in a store so you can see what is comfortable to you...i have yet to see a pentax in any store so haven't held one but the nikon( think it was a d50) was to big for my evidently puny hands ... the rebel( xt) is/was comfortable. i was originally planning on a different camera entirely when i first started shopping but i hated that one when i held it. i can't imagine anything worse than dropping $1000+ then hating to use it.

groucho, while i understand your point, i do think mark has a good point...i think only those with wallets of steel don't some time at least think of upgrading to a better body/lenses, whether they planning on selling photos or not...forget who it was that commented a while back on the 30d $$$range cameras being used on "auto" at WDW...
 
Mark, I still have to respectfully disagree. I see your points but I just can't agree with your conclusion.

1) I don't think there's any danger of Pentax disappearing any time soon. They've been around for decades and their current DSLRs and lenses are highly regarded and selling like mad. They are a smaller company and are not attempting to match the volumes that C/N move. They're making a lot of money off their DSLRs, plus they have investments from Samsung (which is not exactly a small company) and Hoya.

It doesn't take a large share of a market in order to remain healthy. Hey, look at how few cameras Hasselblad sells, too!

2) Their lineup is smaller than C/N but it is hardly minimalistic, there are many lenses available for different needs and often with superior optical quality to the competition. Again, it's going to be a rare user that cannot find a lens to meet their needs.

3) A valid point but I think a minor one.

4) I don't think that differences are that significant, especially between the Nikons and the Pentaxes. It wasn't that long ago that the Pentax K1000 was the standard photography class camera, either. That's partly why I bought mine...

5) Your main point here seems to be financial. Like I said, I could switch systems at this point with no financial hit whatsoever. This one is definitely a red herring. Furthermore, like I said, it doesn't take a C/N to do professional photography.

I see your Amiga comparison. I was always an Atari guy, starting with the Atari 400, with 8K of memory. (Ours was quickly upgraded to a whopping 32k!) I eventually went with an Atari ST due to my loyalty, even though the Amiga was slightly more "sexy" and was designed by Jay Miner, the guy behind the Atari 8bits. I didn't go into the PC world until I bought a Pentium 90. Did I feel abandoned by Atari? Not really. No I regret my choice? Absolutely not! The PCs of that era were junk as far as I was concerned, only good for stuff like spreadsheets or other basic text-only things. Furthermore, the basic knowledge transfers easily and I soon after went into the IT business as a career.

So, I have two big points.

1) Avoiding smaller companies just because they're small is, in general, not a good idea. Otherwise we're left with only large monoliths, unresponsive to customer demands. (Even the most ardent C/N fans have to admit that they haven't really been doing much interesting with their cameras lately, especially the entry-level ones.) And, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If nobody buys because they're smaller, then of course they won't survive. At this point, I think the only reason more people don't buy Pentax is that they just don't know that they're offering DSLRs since they don't appear in the weekly Best Buy ads. (That's how I was until I got ready to start getting serious about a DSLR.) Once people find out about it, it's an extremely strong contender and as we can see from recent postings here, it is often the pick of an educated new buyer.

Their success of late has had a big impact on the value of Pentax equipment on eBay and will no doubt lead to more 3rd party equipment becoming available, plus Pentax isn't sitting still and has a good number of new lenses on their roadmap.

2) I think the biggest advantage, and what's been driving their success, has been just plain "bang for your buck" - and not just with a $1,000 system, but a $2k, $3k, or more system. Someone who buys a K100D and $1,000-$1,500 worth of lenses will have a more equipment than an XTi buyer who spends the same total money, and furthermore, most (all?) of those lenses will be higher quality and all will be image stabilized, unless the XTi buyer blows their lens budget on a single IS "L" lens. Another $400 gets you a K10D which offers features designed for pros to make photography easier (hyperprogram, the unique ISO modes, water/dust resistant, etc)...

Heck, with the rebates, you can get the K100D and the 50-200mm for, I think, under $700 now (off the top of my head, not running the numbers.) That's an image stabilized 50-200mm. And an IS 18-55mm. What would a Canon owner have to spend to get an equivalent IS lens? In other words - an investment in Pentax gives you more gear with more features for less money NOW. An investment in Canon means less gear, less features, for a promise of buying high-end equipment in the future. Financially, it seems like a poor choice, as you'd have to replace all your entry-level equipment to go "pro" with Canon anyway.

While we're on the topic, I'll come from the other side. Yes, I don't like Canon very much. Why? Because I feel that they deliberately design their equipment to make you want to upgrade. Their entry-level stuff seems to be build relatively cheaply. Their cheapest DSLRs generally get poor marks for build quality and feel. Their users seem to know and accept that the entry-level lenses will feel a bit cheap and will have subpar image quality. ("Well, I didn't expect much, it's no 'L' lens!") They deliberately leave features off their entry-level cameras. (Like, why no spot metering?) I know there are firmware hacks to re-enable stuff in the original digital Rebel that was there was just disabled in software, in order to "strip down" the camera, I'm not sure if the same is true with the XT/XTi.

These issues do not seem to be as prevalent in the Nikon world. That's why, if I were choosing just one, I'd have to go with Nikon.

Of course, the reality is, we're still picking nits here. The DSLRs from all three companies are all great equipment and each is capable of producing similarly stellar quality. But for sheer bang for the buck, C/N are clearly behind Pentax, especially when you start talking IS lenses.
 














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