The Official 2013 Wine and Dine Half Marathon Thread

[Figment1990]

Thank you so much for trying to answer my questions. I really appreciate you taking the time to help me make sense of this.

So, according to the MM calculations, I would run (under ideal conditions) around an 11:10 pace on race day and should train at a 13:10 pace? I train very comfortably at a 10:25-10:45 pace and can't imagine slowing to anything slower than 11-minute miles for training. Granted, from your description, I didn't run my MM as quickly as I could/should have but it seems like it would be really hard to slow it down for training as much as the Galloway plan advises. Thanks again for trying to help me out with this

eta- Wait! So, I would add 2 minutes per mile to my magic mile pace in order to arrive at my training pace? Because, if so, then that does make sense since I am running my long runs 2 minutes per mile slower than my magic mile. I'm sorry if I am being so confusing.

I'm not coach (or any coach by any means) but I recall coach or others saying that if you are a fairly new runner/racer, your long training runs will naturally be a little closer in pace to your actual race pace. Especially if your goal is to finish smiling and not to finish puking your guts out. For example, I sometimes run a 12:15-1230 long run pace but my race pace is close to that, around at least in my limited experience. I too cannot fathom running my long runs at much slower than this although it does allow me to take guiltless water walk breaks if I feel like it. And I don't beat myself up too much when I run hilly routes slightly slower since I know the Disney races are so flat. My magic mile pace averages 9:30 and my 5k pace is 10:30. I suppose we will find out in a week what my true 10k race pace is. I run easy runs at a 11:30 pace, tempo runs around 10:45-10:30 pace and my speed intervals at 9:30. I'm hoping to improve my half time this fall and according to the magic mile thing I should. If I decide not to do things like stop for pictures or dancing in the Osborne lights.

 

[cewait]

Thank you so much for trying to answer my questions. I really appreciate you taking the time to help me make sense of this.

So, according to the MM calculations, I would run (under ideal conditions) around an 11:10 pace on race day and should train at a 13:10 pace? I train very comfortably at a 10:25-10:45 pace and can't imagine slowing to anything slower than 11-minute miles for training. Granted, from your description, I didn't run my MM as quickly as I could/should have but it seems like it would be really hard to slow it down for training as much as the Galloway plan advises. Thanks again for trying to help me out with this

eta- Wait! So, I would add 2 minutes per mile to my magic mile pace in order to arrive at my training pace? Because, if so, then that does make sense since I am running my long runs 2 minutes per mile slower than my magic mile. I'm sorry if I am being so confusing.

Doesn't help that I screwed up and was writing 10 minute miles while thinking 12.

But seriously, do not get hung up on the MM thing. This is something new the Jeff has come out with in the last couple years. I think it an interesting predictor of race pace, but not one that I would get hung up on.

In very traditional terms, you are running an average 10:30 training pace. Expect to run a 9:40 ish race pace if you want to push. It's not an easy race pace, but one that would gas you near the end.

Based on your long run pace I would expect to see you push MM in the 7:10-8:10 range. What ever the average for the 3-4 Mile intervals, Jeff believes that you should be able to run 13 miles at a pace that is 30% slower.

I think I am reading in your messages that you are thinking the MM pace should be your race pace. It is not. It is a pace that you could only run a little over a mile at. Once you run these MM, multiply the average pace x 1.3 and that give you your estimated race pace.

I am sorry that I added to the confusion with my confusion..

Again, if this is a first or nearly first half, go out and run your training pace. Once out about 8-9 miles... turn up the pace if you still have gas.


JEEZ I feel so GOOFY or is it Dopey

 

[PlutoBaby]

All this MM talk is making my head spin. My MM's in the past have gone anywhere from 9:45-8:35. I can't even tell you the last time I actually timed one. Right now, I'm running my Tuesday runs as speedwork, Thursdays as tempos (with the metronome), and weekends as tempos with a few intervals thrown in every so often, but I'll probably stop those the longer I go and just concentrate on keeping a steady cadence with enough left to push that last mile. What I'm not getting right now is with my new GPS, I'm not going any slower at any point than a 10:30 mile, but it will show my avg. mile at the end as always being slower. At this point, as long as I beat last year's time of 2:48 (which included photo and bathroom stops), I'll be happy.

So my remaining schedule looks like this:

9/24 4 miles (w/intervals)
9/26 4 miles-tempo
9/28 6 miles
10/2 4 miles-intervals
10/4 7 miles (in Disney!)
10/8 4 miles-intervals
10/10 5 miles-tempo
10/13 7 miles
10/15 4 miles-intervals
10/17 5 miles-tempo
10/20 8 miles
10/22 4 miles-intervals
10/24 5 miles-tempo
10/27 10 miles
10/29 4 miles-intervals
10/31 4 miles-tempo
11/2 7 miles
11/5 3 miles

Opinions??

 

[cewait]

*********

Opinions??

Looks solid. I would definitely not run anything other than a constant pace on the long run. If you have a time in mind, run your long runs at a training pace the first half to two thirds of the run then pick up the pace to race pace for the remainder of the run. It’s a great mental challenge to hit the pace you want to run when starting on legs that are fatiguing.

I would think about running Friday morning. Maybe a short shakeout run to make sure everything is loose and good to go.

Where you running at Disney?

 

[PlutoBaby]

Looks solid. I would definitely not run anything other than a constant pace on the long run. If you have a time in mind, run your long runs at a training pace the first half to two thirds of the run then pick up the pace to race pace for the remainder of the run. It’s a great mental challenge to hit the pace you want to run when starting on legs that are fatiguing.

I would think about running Friday morning. Maybe a short shakeout run to make sure everything is loose and good to go.

Where you running at Disney?

I was thinking the same thing...just a short easy 1-2 mile jog the day before.

So since I'm time challenged, let's say for kicks I'd like to finish (with photo ops) in 2:15-2:25. What kind of pace during my long runs do I want to look for? And at what point during those runs (say the 7-8 mile runs) do I want to pick up that pace?

Technically not Disney but pretty close in Winter Garden. LOVE that Orange Trail!

 

[cewait]

I was thinking the same thing...just a short easy 1-2 mile jog the day before.

So since I'm time challenged, let's say for kicks I'd like to finish (with photo ops) in 2:15-2:25. What kind of pace during my long runs do I want to look for? And at what point during those runs (say the 7-8 mile runs) do I want to pick up that pace?

Technically not Disney but pretty close in Winter Garden. LOVE that Orange Trail!

So saying we use up 5 – 10 minutes for photos, assume a 2:10 pace for the half or a 9:55-10 minute race pace. I would think you are in the range of a 10:30-11:30 training pace. I think dropping 30 to 60 seconds off your training pace is not out of the question. On the 8 mile run, say about the time your watch say 5 miles, add speed.

I love the WOT. I live about 4-5 minutes via bike from the trail. Though, I do find that on Saturday AM it is getting rather crowded. I am betting as the weather turns to fall (or fall as the Gulf influenced weather will allow) it gets even crazier. I have a hill on the Clermont end that I just love (though technically, I do not think it on the trail) where I have run into a few pro triathletes. Holy smack, these guys can fly up the hill.

 

[Figment1990]

I know it's barely 24 hours post-run and I know better than to start worrying until at least a couple of days have passed, but my knees are definitely protesting yesterday's run! Mostly my left (GOOD!) knee hurts. Grrrr.... I am trying to distract myself from rearranging my planned runs for this week until at least another 24 hours. I was planning to take it "easy" this week anyhow because of my 10k on sunday, but the question on the table is just how easy.... and whether to push it on Sunday or not. The 10k on sunday is a lot of downhills, so I was hoping for a big PR, but I also don't want to lose my knees this close to W&D.... I'm torn because I'd really like to have a good starting corral for the princess half in February, and that's the whole purpose of my 10k on sunday. However, I could still push myself at the wine & dine and submit that time instead.

anyhow, Coach, standby.... might be looking for input once I see how the legs are feeling tomorrow afternoon....

In the mean time, warm up with a walk, stretch and roll the quads and IT bands.

So my legs are feeling good! Definitely up for my planned run tonight.

So Coach, speaking of paces and such. Any strategy advice for my 10k on Sunday? The course basically goes like this: .25 mile flat, then .25 mile up a minor hill, then 3.5 miles mostly flat or downhill, 1 mile climb steady uphill (not a steep incline, but long), then downhill to the finish.

My goal time is 1:10 or better and I can "comfortably" run an 11-10:30 pace or better but I know the hills are going to slow me down. I also know I can pick up some speed on some of the downhills and have been practicing my downhill running also. What would you do in the 3 miles before the climb? I don't want to keep it too slow until after the climb, because that only leaves me 1.2 miles to speed it up. On the other hand, I don't want to fizzle out before the long climb. Its the Pittsburgh Great Race and they have an elevation chart on their website but I don't know how to post a link to that here. I'm not even sure how bad the last hill climb will be in terms of my perspective. I'm used to fairly steep hills around my house and I'd hate to hold back too much and then end up not feeling like I needed that much gas in the tank for the last hill. I guess I could go try to drive the course but our city is under so much construction it seems like such a pain!

Initially I was thinking, run steady up the first hill, recover on the down, push it just a little for about 2 miles, slow down and recover just a bit for the quarter or half mile before the hill, and then push it once I crest the hill. Do you think pushing too hard in the middle section is a bad idea? i'm a novice 10k runner. And I'd just SO much rather run flat races! I've improved my hill route pace by a whole minute though over the summer, so I'm feeling pretty strong about the uphills.

 

[wood8176]

This may sound like a silly question, but is anyone doing any of the parks on the Saturday of the race? We are on a very short vacation schedule and with three kids i feel like I'm limiting their vacation if we don't make use of the morning and mid afternoon to visit something.
I was thinking about Blizzard Beach, where I can take it easy; yet, they can still be "in a park".
Anyone else thinking about doing a park on race day?

 

[jpeka65844]

This may sound like a silly question, but is anyone doing any of the parks on the Saturday of the race? We are on a very short vacation schedule and with three kids i feel like I'm limiting their vacation if we don't make use of the morning and mid afternoon to visit something.
I was thinking about Blizzard Beach, where I can take it easy; yet, they can still be "in a park".
Anyone else thinking about doing a park on race day?

We're thinking about doing DHS in the AM, riding the big rides, then heading back for naps and rest.

 

[funnybunny921]

We're thinking about doing DHS in the AM, riding the big rides, then heading back for naps and rest.

we aren't, but the only park I considered was DHS - there are some great seated shows and it isn't too big. I would not ride RRC myself - but I am prone to back problems.

we are doing breakfast at kona and then will head to down town disney for some shopping before a nice long nap.

 

[cewait]

So my legs are feeling good! Definitely up for my planned run tonight.

So Coach, speaking of paces and such. Any strategy advice for my 10k on Sunday? The course basically goes like this: .25 mile flat, then .25 mile up a minor hill, then 3.5 miles mostly flat or downhill, 1 mile climb steady uphill (not a steep incline, but long), then downhill to the finish.

My goal time is 1:10 or better and I can "comfortably" run an 11-10:30 pace or better but I know the hills are going to slow me down. I also know I can pick up some speed on some of the downhills and have been practicing my downhill running also. What would you do in the 3 miles before the climb? I don't want to keep it too slow until after the climb, because that only leaves me 1.2 miles to speed it up. On the other hand, I don't want to fizzle out before the long climb. Its the Pittsburgh Great Race and they have an elevation chart on their website but I don't know how to post a link to that here. I'm not even sure how bad the last hill climb will be in terms of my perspective. I'm used to fairly steep hills around my house and I'd hate to hold back too much and then end up not feeling like I needed that much gas in the tank for the last hill. I guess I could go try to drive the course but our city is under so much construction it seems like such a pain!

Initially I was thinking, run steady up the first hill, recover on the down, push it just a little for about 2 miles, slow down and recover just a bit for the quarter or half mile before the hill, and then push it once I crest the hill. Do you think pushing too hard in the middle section is a bad idea? i'm a novice 10k runner. And I'd just SO much rather run flat races! I've improved my hill route pace by a whole minute though over the summer, so I'm feeling pretty strong about the uphills.

interesting....

Like many race director’s web charts, the true story is not really what it first appears. The first hill will make or break your day. The first hill has an approximate slope of 4% over a half mile span. From there, the course is basically down. I have run downhill courses and have found that they really never feel like they run down.

My strategy would be to survive up the hill at a pace that puts you at an effort about what you think you would feel running a flat 10k. That means bleeding off some speed to keep the heart rate and breathing under control. It will not need to be a lot of speed, but possibly a minute a mile or so. Once past hill one, the course seems more like a downward roller coaster. There are some ups, but they are nowhere near as bad as hill 1. (though I do believe that while the hills are not bad, there may be a hidden block, half block or intersection that will seem steep). I would shoot to average splits after mile 1 at a flat land pace. If you feel good once near the water, pick up the pace. You will be past anything on the charts as far as hills go.

Again, for a 70 minute 10k, I think survive hill 1 then 4 even splits and the last mile at the same aplit or just a hair faster. Or take the tunnel.

 

[SmartGuyCEO]

5k course is now certified and changed somewhat from last year. http://www.usatf.org/events/courses/maps/showMap.asp?courseID=FL13007TY

 

[wood8176]

interesting....

I have run downhill courses and have found that they really never feel like they run down.

I second this. I try to maintain an "effort level" when it comes to hills going up or down. From my experience, trying to coast or recover after a strong charge up a hill, I find myself "braking" on the down hills which has the effect of working your quads more than if you were running naturally. Of course, safety should prevail and you should maintain control at all times. Just my 2 cents.

 

[cewait]

5k course is now certified and changed somewhat from last year. http://www.usatf.org/events/courses/maps/showMap.asp?courseID=FL13007TY

I saw that this morning when looking at another course.

I was going to plug into mapmyrun tonight.

I think the revisions are to accomodate a new addition to the park.

 

[Figment1990]

interesting....

Like many race director’s web charts, the true story is not really what it first appears. The first hill will make or break your day. The first hill has an approximate slope of 4% over a half mile span. From there, the course is basically down. I have run downhill courses and have found that they really never feel like they run down.

My strategy would be to survive up the hill at a pace that puts you at an effort about what you think you would feel running a flat 10k. That means bleeding off some speed to keep the heart rate and breathing under control. It will not need to be a lot of speed, but possibly a minute a mile or so. Once past hill one, the course seems more like a downward roller coaster. There are some ups, but they are nowhere near as bad as hill 1. (though I do believe that while the hills are not bad, there may be a hidden block, half block or intersection that will seem steep). I would shoot to average splits after mile 1 at a flat land pace. If you feel good once near the water, pick up the pace. You will be past anything on the charts as far as hills go.

Again, for a 70 minute 10k, I think survive hill 1 then 4 even splits and the last mile at the same aplit or just a hair faster. Or take the tunnel.

Lol!!! Around here it would be faster to run through tunnels than drive through them.

Thanks coach! Ill be sure to report back on Sunday or Monday on how it went. Unless it rains. Then all bets are off and I'm looking at running purely for fun with dh and then do a replacement proof of time 10k possibly in October. No need to injure myself running downhill in the rain. Have heard reports of wipeouts in years past.

 

[PlutoBaby]

So saying we use up 5 – 10 minutes for photos, assume a 2:10 pace for the half or a 9:55-10 minute race pace. I would think you are in the range of a 10:30-11:30 training pace. I think dropping 30 to 60 seconds off your training pace is not out of the question. On the 8 mile run, say about the time your watch say 5 miles, add speed.

I love the WOT. I live about 4-5 minutes via bike from the trail. Though, I do find that on Saturday AM it is getting rather crowded. I am betting as the weather turns to fall (or fall as the Gulf influenced weather will allow) it gets even crazier. I have a hill on the Clermont end that I just love (though technically, I do not think it on the trail) where I have run into a few pro triathletes. Holy smack, these guys can fly up the hill.

10:30-11 is right where I'm at now and feel no difficulty in picking up that pace up all!

We stay with friends across the street from where the main building is (where you can rent bikes). I've run west one time and swore I kept hearing the theme music to Deliverance playing in my head. I do like the fact there are more hills in that direction though but geesh, does it feel like you're out in the boonies in that direction! I'll more than likely be doing my 7 on a Friday as long as it's not too warm by the time I get there, otherwise it'll be as early as I can manage on Saturday morning.

The "pros" must stay to the west end of the trail as it seems to be mostly "normal" peeps like me closer to the turnpike. But some of those bike guys are NUTS!

Let me know if you need a great dentist. Our friends have an awesome practice right there in Winter Garden! Lol!

 

[cewait]

Thanks to WG CEO

http://www.mapmyrun.com/routes/fullscreen/296320115/

The new version of the 5k course. Not sure that this course will make folks happy. At least when the course ran down the service road paralleling the train tracks there was a little of the ‘in the park’ feel. The current out and back has a definite industrial feel. The best thing about it will be the photo op possibility for the back side of Everest.

Regardless, it has the same in the park distance as the old course. I think if the 5K is your desitation race, then this will be a great course.

 

[longhorns2]

Heads up Meet-Up blog stalkers! Looks like a slight change might be coming to the process!

http://margaritasmilesandmouse.blogspot.com/2013/09/are-you-stalker-you-might-want-to-read.html

 

[funnybunny921]

random question - has anyone come across (maybe on etsy) running b-ball caps with ears? DH will being doing an "essence" of mickey costume (black tee, red shorts) and he likes to run with a cap, so a cap with ears would be pretty cool

 

[kristenrice]

First of all, nobody say anything...I've probably already thought about it and I do know better, but here goes...For the past 4 days, I have been experiencing increased pain in my right knee. It's mostly been an achy soreness, but sometimes I feel a clicking and popping. Sometimes, I notice swelling, but not very much. The pain comes on worse at night, sometimes preventing me from falling asleep, so I took some Tylenol PM which helped. I haven't run during this timeframe, but it was due to scheduling, not due to the pain. Deep down, I have a feeling that something may be amiss, but so far, it has not been so unbearable that I cannot deal with it. I had a brief conversation with my daughter's orthopedic doctor and he said that if it wasn't getting worse, I could continue to run...for now. I have every intention of getting it fully examined after the race. I have been running on it for over a year now without any significant, consistent exacerbation so I know I can make it through the next six weeks.

That brings me to today...my long run. My knee was a little sore and stiff this morning so I took some ibuprofen. I had a pre-run breakfast of toast with peanut butter and banana and drank some water and a little Powerade Zero. I set out with a goal of completing 10 miles at a 13:00 pace. I set my intervals at 4/9 figuring that I would just take it easy and not push myself. I kept telling myself that the time didn't matter...I just needed to finish pain-free.

I felt great! I had ZERO pain in my knee...for the first time in 4 days! The running made it feel BETTER. I went out on the paved bike path which has a LOT of hills. I kept a very steady pace...every mile was between 12:00 and 12:42. I had one mile that was a 13:00 because I got caught at a fresh green traffic light and had to wait. Other than that anomaly, I did great! I finished 12 miles with a pace of 12:32. After that run, I am 100% confident that I will have no problem finishing the 1/2 Marathon with plenty of energy left over for the after party .

Now, as I sit here, it has been an hour since I finished and my knee has ZERO discomfort. I will have to wait and see how it feels tomorrow since I often have delayed onset soreness, but not usually from running.

My next run is scheduled for Thursday. It will be a short one since I will be in class all day while the kids are in school. I'll have to squeeze in 4-5 miles sometime after 5 and before it gets too dark.