The Marvels

[PolymerSkywalker]

So if you target a different audience and the volume of your original audience declines, those two occurrences are not related?

Is that what you are saying?

 

[BrianL]

They didn't target a different audience.

 

[PolymerSkywalker]

They didn't target a different audience.

Ok, maybe I misread your previous response. Seems like that is what you said.

 

[BrianL]

Ok, maybe I misread your previous response. Seems like that is what you said.

Well, it's kind of nuanced. The audience for sci-fi/fantasy typse stuff has definitely expanded in recent times, though not really because of anything the creators did, more jsut changes in society and lots of kids raised by nerds. I won't say that Didn't didn't adjust somewhat to appeal to modern tastes, but every movie does that. It's more societal than anything. I just don't see how the recent Star Wars movies are materially any different from previous ones in that regard. I certianly didn't perceive any gender biases in them. As a male fan, I wasn't run off. One can debate the quality of the movies, but I just don't see any of that being a factor.

 

[PolymerSkywalker]

People change. Society changes. There's no guarantee that demand will stay that high forever. Also, one can argue about the quality of the films released. I think they're fine but some don't - but that quality has NOTHING to do with using female leads or targeting a different audience.

So in your last sentence above you were not saying Disney has been “using more female leads or targeted a different audience”?

So you are saying it happened, but organically due to subtle changes in society over time? So did or did it not happen that Disney began “using more female leads or target a different audience”?

 

[nancipants]

Sure Star Wars has always skewed male, at least amongst the "hardcore fans" - it still does.

I'd actually argue this is not true, but I'm very biased as pretty much all my friends who like Star Wars are women. The fandom spaces I'm involved in are very heavily female. And the cons I go to are 50/50.

(Fun story: I won the Star Wars Day at Sea trivia contest a few years ago. During the final round, after my turn and everyone cheered, my husband yelled out, "THAT'S MY WIFE!" )

It just always amazes me when men want to be so gatekeepery regarding the stuff they like instead of, you know, INVITING women in? It's like everyone who made fun of the two guys in our drama club in high school for being "gay". Meanwhile they were the ones hanging out with girls all day long!

 

[BrianL]

So in your last sentence above you were not saying Disney has been “using more female leads or targeted a different audience”?

So you are saying it happened, but organically due to subtle changes in society over time? So did or did it not happen that Disney began “using more female leads or target a different audience”?

I am saying that using female leads does NOT mean targeting a new audience. Some people perceive it that way, but it's not the intent at all.

 

[BrianL]

I'd actually argue this is not true, but I'm very biased as pretty much all my friends who like Star Wars are women. The fandom spaces I'm involved in are very heavily female. And the cons I go to are 50/50.

(Fun story: I won the Star Wars Day at Sea trivia contest a few years ago. During the final round, after my turn and everyone cheered, my husband yelled out, "THAT'S MY WIFE!" )

It just always amazes me when men want to be so gatekeepery regarding the stuff they like instead of, you know, INVITING women in? It's like everyone who made fun of the two guys in our drama club in high school for being "gay". Meanwhile they were the ones hanging out with girls all day long!

These days I'd say about 50/50 is right. In 1977 though? Probably not. I think the movies definitely appealed to everybody, but the group that would go on to be those hardcore groups - reading the books, etc. I think likely were mostly male. I say "mostly", that is not to mean exclusively. To me, it is 100% not important. Star Wars is for everyone who likes Star Wars!

 

[Smugpugmug]

Just from observing most people's reactions to the latest Star Wars content (the movie stuff, not the TV shows), it seems like the biggest issue is lack of direction in the storytelling and specific decisions made for the characters rather than leading characters being female.

 

[PolymerSkywalker]

Just from observing most people's reactions to the latest Star Wars content (the movie stuff, not the TV shows), it seems like the biggest issue is lack of direction in the storytelling and specific decisions made for the characters rather than leading characters being female.

100% agree with this take. If they wouldn’t have deconstructed Luke in the process, I think I could have liked Rey just fine.

I liked her a decent amount in the force awakens, but just hated the direction of TLJ so much that I was done with her character.

Is was the easiest layup ever to make. Respect the past fans give us one short scene with the OT Big 3, and give them all respectful send offs. How on earth can you screw that up so badly! Biggest mistake in cinematic history and literally college classes are thought on how poorly this went.

If they could just go back in time and never hire Rian Johnson, I think the entire franchise is in a different place today.

 

[BrianL]

Just from observing most people's reactions to the latest Star Wars content (the movie stuff, not the TV shows), it seems like the biggest issue is lack of direction in the storytelling and specific decisions made for the characters rather than leading characters being female.

Yes, and while I don't agree (or at least think the criticism has been overly harsh), those are legitimate areas of discussion and criticism. Constantly harping on female characters/creators/audience is not.

 

[Smugpugmug]

Yes, and while I don't agree (or at least think the criticism has been overly harsh), those are legitimate areas of discussion and criticism. Constantly harping on female characters/creators/audience is not.

I don't have any strong opinions about it (wish Finn got more time to shine and him being sidelined was a mistake IMO) but the reaction reminds me a lot of Game of Thrones season 8. I STILL see people discuss how badly they screwed that up.

 

[BrianL]

100% agree with this take. If they wouldn’t have deconstructed Luke in the process, I think I could have liked Rey just fine.

I liked her a decent amount in the force awakens, but just hated the direction of TLJ so much that I was done with her character.

Is was the easiest layup ever to make. Respect the past fans give us one short scene with the OT Big 3, and give them all respectful send offs. How on earth can you screw that up so badly! Biggest mistake in cinematic history and literally college classes are thought on how poorly this went.

If they could just go back in time and never hire Rian Johnson, I think the entire franchise is in a different place today.

I am a past fan and don't feel "disrespected" in any way. Respect has nothing to do with it. Now, you don't have to like their choices, but the constant villification of the creators as if they did it to spite you personally is off-base and unproductive.

 

[BrianL]

I don't have any strong opinions about it (wish Finn got more time to shine and him being sidelined was a mistake IMO) but the reaction reminds me a lot of Game of Thrones season 8. I STILL see people discuss how badly they screwed that up.

Right, and story-based criticism is legitimate. They never call out the GoT creators over their race or gender though. I wonder why.

 

[PolymerSkywalker]

These days I'd say about 50/50 is right. In 1977 though? Probably not. I think the movies definitely appealed to everybody, but the group that would go on to be those hardcore groups - reading the books, etc. I think likely were mostly male. I say "mostly", that is not to mean exclusively. To me, it is 100% not important. Star Wars is for everyone who likes Star Wars!

The last movie we got was The Rise of Palpatine / Skywalker and it had an audience that was 60% male and 40 female.

Based on that 60% male is pretty close to where the movie fandom sits today. However the % is moving in the direction of more females no doubt.

 

[PolymerSkywalker]

I don't have any strong opinions about it (wish Finn got more time to shine and him being sidelined was a mistake IMO) but the reaction reminds me a lot of Game of Thrones season 8. I STILL see people discuss how badly they screwed that up.

They did screw up that season horribly. It’s a pretty good comparison.

 

[Smugpugmug]

Right, and story-based criticism is legitimate. They never call out the GoT creators over their race or gender though. I wonder why.

Guess Star Wars needed a scene were Rey rides a dragon and destroys an entire village like Daenerys

 

[PolymerSkywalker]

I think Dany is Luke in your comparison. Dany was beautiful, compassionate, fair, and politically brilliant. Then suddenly she was a psychopath that was slaughtering the innocent. The fans recoiled from her being so outside of character just like they did with Luke being a grumpy old man and dying alone a loser.

 

[Kestryl]

i think there’s a difference between knowing your audience and

100% agree with this take. If they wouldn’t have deconstructed Luke in the process, I think I could have liked Rey just fine.

I liked her a decent amount in the force awakens, but just hated the direction of TLJ so much that I was done with her character.

Is was the easiest layup ever to make. Respect the past fans give us one short scene with the OT Big 3, and give them all respectful send offs. How on earth can you screw that up so badly! Biggest mistake in cinematic history and literally college classes are thought on how poorly this went.

If they could just go back in time and never hire Rian Johnson, I think the entire franchise is in a different place today.

Small counterpoint: not having Han, Leia, and Luke on screen at the same time was a problem made in TFA, not TLJ. Han was dead at that point. Yeah, yeah, Force ghosts, whatever. We’ll probably get some edited special edition of RoS with Han in there at the end.

 

[BrianL]

i think there’s a difference between knowing your audience and

Small counterpoint: not having Han, Leia, and Luke on screen at the same time was a problem made in TFA, not TLJ. Han was dead at that point. Yeah, yeah, Force ghosts, whatever. We’ll probably get some edited special edition of RoS with Han in there at the end.

I am a big proponent of the idea of "Special Editioning" all of the movies. Glitz them up again and smooth out some rough edges. It would be good!