THE LIBERAL THREAD #3- No Debate Please

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I was never really comfortable with the "Bush kept the country safe" arguement that republicans love to throw around. Here is a commentary from Time magazine that address that and many other issues.

Bush’s Last Stab at a Legacy

We will reopen Pennsylvania Avenue in front of the White House." —the 2000 Republican platform


But they never did. Eight years later, the barricades remain. It was a phony issue, of course — just another stick with which to beat Bill Clinton, who closed the road at the insistence of the Secret Service. In an interview with PBS a month after Sept. 11, 2001, Vice President Dick Cheney stated the obvious: "Pennsylvania Avenue ought to stay closed because, as a fact, if somebody were to detonate a truck bomb in front of the White House, it would probably level the White House, and that is unacceptable."

Sept. 11 is the excuse for many of the Bush Administration's failures and disappointments. It is also the basis for the one great claim made on George W. Bush's behalf: At least he has protected us from terrorism. In the seven years since that day, there has not been another foreign-terrorist attack on the American homeland. The trouble is that there were no foreign-terrorist attacks on the American homeland in the seven years before 9/11 either. The risk of another terrorist attack didn't increase on 9/11 — only our awareness of the risk. The Bush Administration took office mocking the concern that someone might blow up the White House but soon enough was echoing that concern. (See pictures of the White House.)

The platform on which Bush entered the presidency eight years ago comes from a lost world, in which even the party out of power saw an America of unthreatened prosperity and security. "Yesterday's wildest dreams are today's realities, and there is no limit on the promise of tomorrow," the GOP said. The biggest foreign policy challenge America faced in 2000, according to this party document, was to avoid misusing our enormous power. "Earlier generations defended America through great trials," the platform declared. Then it quoted the Republican nominee, Bush, on the importance of showing the "modesty of true strength. The humility of real greatness." Even enthusiasts of Bush's foreign policy would not describe it as displaying the humility of true greatness. More like the pugnacity of lost greatness. All that talk of one superpower — us — bestriding a "unipolar" world seems as dated as Seinfeld reruns.

The measure of Bush's failure as President is not his broken promises or unmet goals. All politicians break their promises, and none achieve the goals of their soaring rhetoric. But Bush stands out for abandoning the promises and goals that got him elected, taking up the opposite ones and then failing to keep or meet those.

In 2000 Bush excoriated his predecessor for launching wars without an "exit strategy." In 2008 he leaves his successor a war that has already lasted for years longer than America's involvement in World War II, with no exit in sight. Bush got elected warning against using U.S. troops for "nation-building" — meaning any goal beyond immediate military necessity. Then once in office, he promised to bring democracy to the entire Middle East and ended up destroying Iraq as a nation in the name of saving it.

Bush leaves the stage still justifying his Iraq disaster on the grounds that prewar intelligence showed that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. He acknowledges that this intelligence was wrong but maintains he relied on it in good faith. Who cares? What matters is whether there were WMD, not how sincerely he believed there were. WMD were how he justified the war. How do you explain to families of the war dead why a war must go on for years after even the man who started it thinks starting it was based on a mistake?

The current economic calamity was a bolt from the blue to many who should have known better, but only one of them had been in charge for the previous eight years. Only one spent much of that time bragging about how swell everything was, thanks to him. Many shared the heedless assumption that there was no limit on how much government or individuals could borrow, but only one turned record surpluses into record deficits. And only one lectured us, Reagan-style, about burdensome government and then, almost casually, expanded government's role in the economy more than any President since F.D.R.: taking over banks and bailing out the auto companies.

O.K., but didn't he do anything right? Well, he came up with serious money to treat AIDS and malaria in Africa. He used the bully pulpit to embrace Muslims in the great post-9/11 American bear hug, when there was real danger of the opposite reaction. And you could say that Bush's disastrous presidency vindicates democracy. Let's not forget that, in 2000, more people voted for the other guy.
 
I'm back from my 4 hour trip to WDW.

Not much to report... WDW's still there ;)

Got an awesome seat in Japan (at the restaurant whose name escapes me) for dinner and illuminations.

And now, I'm back in Miami

Unless you're looking for a smack down of epic proportions, do not take that lame *** story over to the Trip Reports board!! ;)
 
Argh. All your trip planning and Disney mentioning has me going :headache: . I need to get away for a few days somewhere warm with plenty of sunshine.

The house is so empty with Mom gone, the three of us are feeling pretty down.:worried: But, we have the seed catalogs out and planning for Spring. Even though Mom won't be here to supervise we're going to plant a huge veg bed and tons of :flower3: flowers in her honor.

I do hope to meet up with a special pal at WDW in late September so I can :smickey: dream too.


That's sweet about the garden. I'm so sorry you're going through this.

I hope you get your September trip. I'm thinking of going then too--no lines, but there is the possibility of hurricaines!
 
I'm back from my 4 hour trip to WDW.

Not much to report... WDW's still there ;)

Got an awesome seat in Japan (at the restaurant whose name escapes me) for dinner and illuminations.

And now, I'm back in Miami

I want to hear your lame-o trip report. I'm weird that way.
 

I was never really comfortable with the "Bush kept the country safe" arguement that republicans love to throw around. Here is a commentary from Time magazine that address that and many other issues.

Bush’s Last Stab at a Legacy

We will reopen Pennsylvania Avenue in front of the White House." —the 2000 Republican platform


But they never did. Eight years later, the barricades remain. It was a phony issue, of course — just another stick with which to beat Bill Clinton, who closed the road at the insistence of the Secret Service. In an interview with PBS a month after Sept. 11, 2001, Vice President Dick Cheney stated the obvious: "Pennsylvania Avenue ought to stay closed because, as a fact, if somebody were to detonate a truck bomb in front of the White House, it would probably level the White House, and that is unacceptable."

Sept. 11 is the excuse for many of the Bush Administration's failures and disappointments. It is also the basis for the one great claim made on George W. Bush's behalf: At least he has protected us from terrorism. In the seven years since that day, there has not been another foreign-terrorist attack on the American homeland. The trouble is that there were no foreign-terrorist attacks on the American homeland in the seven years before 9/11 either. The risk of another terrorist attack didn't increase on 9/11 — only our awareness of the risk. The Bush Administration took office mocking the concern that someone might blow up the White House but soon enough was echoing that concern. (See pictures of the White House.)

The platform on which Bush entered the presidency eight years ago comes from a lost world, in which even the party out of power saw an America of unthreatened prosperity and security. "Yesterday's wildest dreams are today's realities, and there is no limit on the promise of tomorrow," the GOP said. The biggest foreign policy challenge America faced in 2000, according to this party document, was to avoid misusing our enormous power. "Earlier generations defended America through great trials," the platform declared. Then it quoted the Republican nominee, Bush, on the importance of showing the "modesty of true strength. The humility of real greatness." Even enthusiasts of Bush's foreign policy would not describe it as displaying the humility of true greatness. More like the pugnacity of lost greatness. All that talk of one superpower — us — bestriding a "unipolar" world seems as dated as Seinfeld reruns.

The measure of Bush's failure as President is not his broken promises or unmet goals. All politicians break their promises, and none achieve the goals of their soaring rhetoric. But Bush stands out for abandoning the promises and goals that got him elected, taking up the opposite ones and then failing to keep or meet those.

In 2000 Bush excoriated his predecessor for launching wars without an "exit strategy." In 2008 he leaves his successor a war that has already lasted for years longer than America's involvement in World War II, with no exit in sight. Bush got elected warning against using U.S. troops for "nation-building" — meaning any goal beyond immediate military necessity. Then once in office, he promised to bring democracy to the entire Middle East and ended up destroying Iraq as a nation in the name of saving it.

Bush leaves the stage still justifying his Iraq disaster on the grounds that prewar intelligence showed that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. He acknowledges that this intelligence was wrong but maintains he relied on it in good faith. Who cares? What matters is whether there were WMD, not how sincerely he believed there were. WMD were how he justified the war. How do you explain to families of the war dead why a war must go on for years after even the man who started it thinks starting it was based on a mistake?

The current economic calamity was a bolt from the blue to many who should have known better, but only one of them had been in charge for the previous eight years. Only one spent much of that time bragging about how swell everything was, thanks to him. Many shared the heedless assumption that there was no limit on how much government or individuals could borrow, but only one turned record surpluses into record deficits. And only one lectured us, Reagan-style, about burdensome government and then, almost casually, expanded government's role in the economy more than any President since F.D.R.: taking over banks and bailing out the auto companies.

O.K., but didn't he do anything right? Well, he came up with serious money to treat AIDS and malaria in Africa. He used the bully pulpit to embrace Muslims in the great post-9/11 American bear hug, when there was real danger of the opposite reaction. And you could say that Bush's disastrous presidency vindicates democracy. Let's not forget that, in 2000, more people voted for the other guy.

when you think about it, what else are republicans going to throw around? Look how things have gone? They'll likely try to rehab him like they did Reagan, but they'll have a harder job of it with Bush than they did with him.
 
Okay, so I'm going to Disney. I'm taking the six-year old and leaving the hubs and the twins at home because they are just no fun at Disney--yet. We have year-round school here, so my son is out in September and December. Even though I'm freaked out by hurricaines (as a former florida resident, I've been through a couple and they are no fun) and Sept. is the worst month for them, I'm thinking of september.

So here's my question, do I book a room now or wait until later this spring/early summer and hope there are pin codes or other offers? I'm hoping to get a cheaper room at WL.

Also, is there anything going on in September?
 
Okay, so I'm going to Disney. I'm taking the six-year old and leaving the hubs and the twins at home because they are just no fun at Disney--yet. We have year-round school here, so my son is out in September and December. Even though I'm freaked out by hurricaines (as a former florida resident, I've been through a couple and they are no fun) and Sept. is the worst month for them, I'm thinking of september.

So here's my question, do I book a room now or wait until later this spring/early summer and hope there are pin codes or other offers? I'm hoping to get a cheaper room at WL.

Also, is there anything going on in September?

September's slow and usually a great month for discounts. I'd say you have plenty of time to wait before you have to reserve and plop down a deposit. And as a former Floridian, you know that central Florida never takes the brunt of any storm...you'll be fine.
 
Okay, so I'm going to Disney. I'm taking the six-year old and leaving the hubs and the twins at home because they are just no fun at Disney--yet. We have year-round school here, so my son is out in September and December. Even though I'm freaked out by hurricaines (as a former florida resident, I've been through a couple and they are no fun) and Sept. is the worst month for them, I'm thinking of september.

So here's my question, do I book a room now or wait until later this spring/early summer and hope there are pin codes or other offers? I'm hoping to get a cheaper room at WL.

Also, is there anything going on in September?

We are currently booked at the FWC, we have a bounce back from last sept 11 -20th.
This may change if we go in Feb, we can not afford WDW three time in a year so either may or sept will have to go.
I would wait for a deal, there is bound to be one. Last year we choose free dining over a room only discount.
 
Argh. All your trip planning and Disney mentioning has me going :headache: . I need to get away for a few days somewhere warm with plenty of sunshine.

The house is so empty with Mom gone, the three of us are feeling pretty down.:worried: But, we have the seed catalogs out and planning for Spring. Even though Mom won't be here to supervise we're going to plant a huge veg bed and tons of :flower3: flowers in her honor.

I do hope to meet up with a special pal at WDW in late September so I can :smickey: dream too.



:grouphug:

Hang in there...Planting flowers, bushes or trees in her honor is such a wonderful idea...Beauty and life!
 
September's slow and usually a great month for discounts. I'd say you have plenty of time to wait before you have to reserve and plop down a deposit. And as a former Floridian, you know that central Florida never takes the brunt of any storm...you'll be fine.

Yes, I was in Tallahassee. The most we ever had to deal with was all the people from Jacksonville who were escaping the storm and staying in our hotels. Still, they worry me.
 
We are currently booked at the FWC, we have a bounce back from last sept 11 -20th.
This may change if we go in Feb, we can not afford WDW three time in a year so either may or sept will have to go.
I would wait for a deal, there is bound to be one. Last year we choose free dining over a room only discount.


I'm so excited. Also, I think Sept will work because that's the month the Bar results come out. I'll either be celebrating . . . or crying.

By the way, I love the cabins. They could be a little cleaner, but they are so fun. I love the atmosphere there--all those crazy retired guys with their campers are so fun.
 
I'm so excited. Also, I think Sept will work because that's the month the Bar results come out. I'll either be celebrating . . . or crying.

By the way, I love the cabins. They could be a little cleaner, but they are so fun. I love the atmosphere there--all those crazy retired guys with their campers are so fun.

I like the golf carts alot, a whole lot. I get giddy just thinking about them.

As for the bar, good luck!!!
 
Chris, I was trying to figure out a way to email you about some good December rates. I'll PM you the info, I can't find your email addy.

I am a bit freaked out by the rain and hurricaine potential in September, but we were there in early October last year and it was fine. Super hot, but enjoyable.
 
ok... here goes.

The players- me. myself. I. And my nieces and relatives who followed me in a Minivan.

Day 1- Got in the Porsche, drove up to Alligator Alley, and did some fast speeds all the way down to the Everglades.

Then I did an airboat ride.

Then I continued my drive, and stopped off in Tampa.

Spent the night at the Embassy Suites Downtown... I recommend it. $159/nt for a suite, included free breakfast (continental breakfast + omelet bar) and managers reception (ie- free drinks, chips, and salsa from 530pm-730pm).

Took the TECO trolley to Ybor city and drank.

Day 2- Woke up. Took a shower. Took 2 aspirin and killed le hangover.

Had breakfast, drove to Busch Gardens, and rode coasters all day long. Then I went to the Hospitality Center and drank.

Then I rode some more coasters.

Then I rode Rhino Rally... twice. First time the employee (not a CM... it ain't Disney ;) ) was a trainee... and had never driven a right hand drive. It was funny watching him hit the edge of the ride path.

Drove back to the Hotel, showered, changed, and went to Berns for dinner. G-R-E-A-T Restarant. Amazing steakhouse, with a tour!

Then went back to the hotel, and slept.

Day 3- woke up, checked out of the hotel, and drove to Universal. Did the drive from Downtown Tampa to Universal in about 45-50 mins. Checked in at the Royal Pacific, rooms weren't ready, but it was ok. Picked up our keycards/express passes, and went straight to Universal.

First things first... gotta make the nieces happy. So Shrek, then Jimmy Neutron, then Woody's Coaster, then ET, then my cousin and I ditched them while they did Animal Actors and Barney, and we did Simpsons, MIB, Jaws, and Mummy.

Then we went over to IOA, rode Hulk, then went back to the hotel. It's 4pm now, got in the Porsche, and hauled *** to WDW.

Went first to MK, valeting at the Poly (paid Valet, no DDE). We literally walked in, basked in the castle's comforting existence, and went right back to the Porsche. We had things to do. We hauled over to Disney/MG... err, I mean, Disney's Hollywood Studios (I'd prefer Disney's bollywood studios personally), and rode Toy Story Mania... good ride, GOOD RIDE.... and then walked down Big City Street and basked in the radioactive glow of the lights (a lot of basking this trip). From there, got back in the Porsche, and went straight to Epcot. Valeted at Boardwalk (paid valet, once more, no DDE), and went straight to the Rose and Crown. Had a Tennents, then off to Le Cellier... where they tell us our reservations were made for the wrong day and they can't help us. Boo.

So off to Japan for Sushi! Exceot at this point it's barely 815pm, so we need to make the night stretch out in order to catch the fireworks from our seats. So we order Sushi. Lots of Sushi. $200 worth of Sushi and Sake later, there's Illuminations! Boom, bang, music, lasers... yay!

We quickly eat more food and have ice cream. Then off to Boardwalk. We grab slices of Pizza and get back in the Porsche, for our last stop of the night.

We need Karaoke. So off to International Drive. We pull into Lucky Leprechaun's Irish Pub, where we get some delicious Magners and sing. I play it safe and sing U2... my cousin gets risky and sings Oasis.

We're booed, and we leave.

Off to Wendy's for some last minute snacks.

Till we realized they're closed.

So off to some rinky drink I-Drive pizzeria... yay pizza! We eat pizza, and stagger back to the Royal Pacific to find out our room numbers and go to bed.

Day 4-

Wake up. Breakfast @ Islands Restaurant in the Royal Pacific. Good, but nothing to write home about. Hop back in the Porsche, and drive back to Miami... I did it in 2hrs, 45 minutes from Universal to Key Biscayne.
 
What happend this morning with Ann Coulter and the today show? Glen Beck was talking about something on the radio, and now Perez Hilton is ranting about her with Kathy Lee.

Anyone know? :confused3
 
ok... here goes.

The players- me. myself. I. And my nieces and relatives who followed me in a Minivan.

Day 1- Got in the Porsche, drove up to Alligator Alley, and did some fast speeds all the way down to the Everglades.

Then I did an airboat ride.

Then I continued my drive, and stopped off in Tampa.

Spent the night at the Embassy Suites Downtown... I recommend it. $159/nt for a suite, included free breakfast (continental breakfast + omelet bar) and managers reception (ie- free drinks, chips, and salsa from 530pm-730pm).

Took the TECO trolley to Ybor city and drank.

Day 2- Woke up. Took a shower. Took 2 aspirin and killed le hangover.

Had breakfast, drove to Busch Gardens, and rode coasters all day long. Then I went to the Hospitality Center and drank.

Then I rode some more coasters.

Then I rode Rhino Rally... twice. First time the employee (not a CM... it ain't Disney ;) ) was a trainee... and had never driven a right hand drive. It was funny watching him hit the edge of the ride path.

Drove back to the Hotel, showered, changed, and went to Berns for dinner. G-R-E-A-T Restarant. Amazing steakhouse, with a tour!

Then went back to the hotel, and slept.

Day 3- woke up, checked out of the hotel, and drove to Universal. Did the drive from Downtown Tampa to Universal in about 45-50 mins. Checked in at the Royal Pacific, rooms weren't ready, but it was ok. Picked up our keycards/express passes, and went straight to Universal.

First things first... gotta make the nieces happy. So Shrek, then Jimmy Neutron, then Woody's Coaster, then ET, then my cousin and I ditched them while they did Animal Actors and Barney, and we did Simpsons, MIB, Jaws, and Mummy.

Then we went over to IOA, rode Hulk, then went back to the hotel. It's 4pm now, got in the Porsche, and hauled *** to WDW.

Went first to MK, valeting at the Poly (paid Valet, no DDE). We literally walked in, basked in the castle's comforting existence, and went right back to the Porsche. We had things to do. We hauled over to Disney/MG... err, I mean, Disney's Hollywood Studios (I'd prefer Disney's bollywood studios personally), and rode Toy Story Mania... good ride, GOOD RIDE.... and then walked down Big City Street and basked in the radioactive glow of the lights (a lot of basking this trip). From there, got back in the Porsche, and went straight to Epcot. Valeted at Boardwalk (paid valet, once more, no DDE), and went straight to the Rose and Crown. Had a Tennents, then off to Le Cellier... where they tell us our reservations were made for the wrong day and they can't help us. Boo.

So off to Japan for Sushi! Exceot at this point it's barely 815pm, so we need to make the night stretch out in order to catch the fireworks from our seats. So we order Sushi. Lots of Sushi. $200 worth of Sushi and Sake later, there's Illuminations! Boom, bang, music, lasers... yay!

We quickly eat more food and have ice cream. Then off to Boardwalk. We grab slices of Pizza and get back in the Porsche, for our last stop of the night.

We need Karaoke. So off to International Drive. We pull into Lucky Leprechaun's Irish Pub, where we get some delicious Magners and sing. I play it safe and sing U2... my cousin gets risky and sings Oasis.

We're booed, and we leave.

Off to Wendy's for some last minute snacks.

Till we realized they're closed.

So off to some rinky drink I-Drive pizzeria... yay pizza! We eat pizza, and stagger back to the Royal Pacific to find out our room numbers and go to bed.

Day 4-

Wake up. Breakfast @ Islands Restaurant in the Royal Pacific. Good, but nothing to write home about. Hop back in the Porsche, and drive back to Miami... I did it in 2hrs, 45 minutes from Universal to Key Biscayne.

I like it. Next time, please consider making all of us your nieces. We need adopting.
 
What happend this morning with Ann Coulter and the today show? Glen Beck was talking about something on the radio, and now Perez Hilton is ranting about her with Kathy Lee.

Anyone know? :confused3


She's a crazy horrible harpie. Glen Beck is perpetually the fat kid who stole the pie from the neighbor lady's window sill and went off in the woods to eat and then sulk. Perez Hilton was brought on to talk about more interesting things. Guess the Today show got tired of hypocite Ann Coulter's mean rants. And also, she's boring.
 
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