The Liberal Thread #2 - No Debate Please

[LuvDuke]

And while John McCain was proclaiming Iraq was a success story:

Cheney, McCain visit Iraq on deadly day

At least 52 Iraqis and two U.S. soldiers are killed in bombings and mortar attacks. The American vice president and senator focus on successes.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-iraq18mar18,1,3193189.story

I don't think McCain mentioned this. Methinks, he probably won't.

 

[MassJester]

And while John McCain was proclaiming Iraq was a success story:



I don't think McCain mentioned this. Methinks, he probably won't.

Shhh, everything is fine--ignore the man behind the curtain.

 

[LuvDuke]

Along the lines of Republican "Free market is bad when it comes to bailing out big business":

The B Word
By PAUL KRUGMAN

Published: March 17, 2008

O.K., here it comes: The unthinkable is about to become the inevitable.

Robert Rubin, the former Treasury secretary, and John Lipsky, a top official at the International Monetary Fund, both suggested that public funds might be needed to rescue the U.S. financial system. Mr. Lipsky insisted that he wasn’t talking about a bailout. But he was.

It’s true that Henry Paulson, the current Treasury secretary, still says that any proposal to use taxpayers’ money to help resolve the crisis is a “non-starter.” But that’s about as credible as all of his previous pronouncements on the financial situation.

So here’s the question we really should be asking: When the feds do bail out the financial system, what will they do to ensure that they aren’t also bailing out the people who got us into this mess?

Let’s talk about why a bailout is inevitable.

Between 2002 and 2007, false beliefs in the private sector — the belief that home prices only go up, that financial innovation had made risk go away, that a triple-A rating really meant that an investment was safe — led to an epidemic of bad lending. Meanwhile, false beliefs in the political arena — the belief of Alan Greenspan and his friends in the Bush administration that the market is always right and regulation always a bad thing — led Washington to ignore the warning signs.

By the way, Mr. Greenspan is still at it: accepting no blame, he continues to insist that “market flexibility and open competition” are the “most reliable safeguards against cumulative economic failure.”

The result of all that bad lending was an unholy financial mess that will cause trillions of dollars in losses. A large chunk of these losses will fall on financial institutions: commercial banks, investment banks, hedge funds and so on.

Many people say that the government should let the chips fall where they may — that those who made bad loans should simply be left to suffer the consequences. But it’s not going to happen. When push comes to shove, financial officials — rightly — aren’t willing to run the risk that losses on bad loans will cripple the financial system and take the real economy down with it.

Consider what happened last Friday, when the Federal Reserve rushed to the aid of Bear Stearns.

Nobody expects an investment bank to be a charitable institution, but Bear has a particularly nasty reputation. As Gretchen Morgenson of The New York Times reminds us, Bear “has often operated in the gray areas of Wall Street and with an aggressive, brass-knuckles approach.”

Bear was a major promoter of the most questionable subprime lenders. It lured customers into two of its own hedge funds that were among the first to go bust in the current crisis. And it’s a bad financial citizen: the last time the Fed tried to contain a financial crisis, after the collapse of Long-Term Capital Management in 1998, Bear refused to participate in the rescue operation.

Bear, in other words, deserved to be allowed to fail — both on the merits and to teach Wall Street not to expect someone else to clean up its messes.

But the Fed rode to Bear’s rescue anyway, fearing that the collapse of a major investment bank would cause panic in the markets and wreak havoc with the wider economy. Fed officials knew that they were doing a bad thing, but believed that the alternative would be even worse.

As Bear goes, so will go the rest of the financial system. And if history is any guide, the coming taxpayer-financed bailout will end up costing a lot of money.

The U.S. savings and loan crisis of the 1980s ended up costing taxpayers 3.2 percent of G.D.P., the equivalent of $450 billion today. Some estimates put the fiscal cost of Japan’s post-bubble cleanup at more than 20 percent of G.D.P. — the equivalent of $3 trillion for the United States.

If these numbers shock you, they should. But the big bailout is coming. The only question is how well it will be managed.

As I said, the important thing is to bail out the system, not the people who got us into this mess. That means cleaning out the shareholders in failed institutions, making bondholders take a haircut, and canceling the stock options of executives who got rich playing heads I win, tails you lose.

According to late reports on Sunday, JPMorgan Chase will buy Bear for a pittance. That’s an O.K. resolution for this case — but not a model for the much bigger bailout to come. Looking ahead, we probably need something similar to the Resolution Trust Corporation, which took over bankrupt savings and loan institutions and sold off their assets to reimburse taxpayers. And we need it quickly: things are falling apart as you read this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/17/opinion/17krugman.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

For the Republicans, the only people who should be exercising some responsibility are single mothers, the poor, those without health insurance ......... in other words, all the enemies of Planet Bush.

But if you're big business like Bear or sucking American taxpayer dollars to the tune of $1,500,000,000 per week like the Iraqi non-government, no problem. No screw up is too big and no responsibility is too lacking for Planet Bush. Hey, gotta take care of the friends.

 

[MassJester]

Along the lines of Republican "Free market is bad when it comes to bailing out big business":



For the Republicans, the only people who should be exercising some responsibility are single mothers, the poor, those without health insurance ......... in other words, all the enemies of Planet Bush.

But if you're big business like Bear or sucking American taxpayer dollars to the tune of $1,500,000,000 per week like the Iraqi non-government, no problem. No screw up is too big and no responsibility is too lacking for Planet Bush. Hey, gotta take care of the friends.

See, now that wasn't hard to grasp, was it?

 

[lovemygoofy]

Ya'll are a BAD BAD BAD influence on me. I was in a meeting yesterday with some rather important people in the division and I hear them making chitchat and one mentioned about McCain and Cheney being in Iraq. Another guy was talking about how that's a real American soldier going over to check on those he cares about and yada yada and because YOU ALL ARE A BAD INFLUENCE I was like yeah not really he went on a fact finding check to see how much rugs are going for today OMG those men spit out their coffee and one started laughing hysterically. I couldn't believe I said such a thing and hurriedly excused myself for the ladies room.

Did I mention ya'll are a bad influence

 

[Laura]

 

[Fitswimmer]

Ya'll are a BAD BAD BAD influence on me. I was in a meeting yesterday with some rather important people in the division and I hear them making chitchat and one mentioned about McCain and Cheney being in Iraq. Another guy was talking about how that's a real American soldier going over to check on those he cares about and yada yada and because YOU ALL ARE A BAD INFLUENCE I was like yeah not really he went on a fact finding check to see how much rugs are going for today OMG those men spit out their coffee and one started laughing hysterically. I couldn't believe I said such a thing and hurriedly excused myself for the ladies room.

Did I mention ya'll are a bad influence

 

[Fitswimmer]

Along the lines of Republican "Free market is bad when it comes to bailing out big business":



For the Republicans, the only people who should be exercising some responsibility are single mothers, the poor, those without health insurance ......... in other words, all the enemies of Planet Bush.

But if you're big business like Bear or sucking American taxpayer dollars to the tune of $1,500,000,000 per week like the Iraqi non-government, no problem. No screw up is too big and no responsibility is too lacking for Planet Bush. Hey, gotta take care of the friends.

I trotted myself over the Conservative thread this morning to ask how they feel about this. I know how I feel, and how most of us feel over here, but I really am interested in how they justify this. John gave me a fair answer, but no takers from the others as yet...but it is early.

 

[LuvDuke]

I trotted myself over the Conservative thread this morning to ask how they feel about this. I know how I feel, and how most of us feel over here, but I really am interested in how they justify this. John gave me a fair answer, but no takers from the others as yet...but it is early.

At least John has some cajones when it comes to expressing an opinion on things like that.

But the dead silence over "If Wright is Obama's pastor, he's a bigot.Therefore Hagee's 18,000 membr congregation are also bigots" and the Bear's bailout is more telling than they care to admit. It's tough to pontificate for days and days and then have the talking points tossed back and hit you in the head.

Yanno, I almost feel sorry for Planet Bush sometimes. That passes quickly.

 

[Fitswimmer]

At least John has some cajones when it comes to expressing an opinion on things like that.

But the dead silence over "If Wright is Obama's pastor, he's a bigot.Therefore Hagee's 18,000 membr congregation are also bigots" and the Bear's bailout is more telling than they care to admit. It's tough to pontificate for days and days and then have the talking points tossed back and hit you in the head.

Yanno, I almost feel sorry for Planet Bush sometimes. That passes quickly.

There's also a lot of silence regarding the idea of removing tax exempt status from ministers who endorse specific candidates. IMHO-they should ALL lose it the minute they say anything for or against a specific candidate whether they are in the pulpit or not when they say it. The influence a pastor has on his congregation doesn't stop the minute he steps away from the lectern.

 

[LuvDuke]

There's also a lot of silence regarding the idea of removing tax exempt status from ministers who endorse specific candidates. IMHO-they should ALL lose it the minute they say anything for or against a specific candidate whether they are in the pulpit or not when they say it. The influence a pastor has on his congregation doesn't stop the minute he steps away from the lectern.

I agree with you. I really think this whole Obama/Wright flap is going to give a voice to the backlash that has been building in many Americans. I think many Americans have had it with religion meddling in politics. Doubly so when these religious creeps like Hagee, Haggard, Swaggart, Falwell, Robertson, Wright, etc. have lost their moral authority.

This is dangerous ground. If someone is going to be judged by who their pastor is, you have now opened the door to an incredible invasion of privacy and would've been unthinkable a generation or 2 ago.

If religion wishes to remain free in this country, it better put up that wall of separation and fast because the backlash isn't going to be pretty.

 

[Fitswimmer]

I agree with you. I really think this whole Obama/Wright flap is going to give a voice to the backlash that has been building in many Americans. I think many Americans have had it with religion meddling in politics. Doubly so when these religious creeps like Hagee, Haggard, Swaggart, Falwell, Robertson, Wright, etc. have lost their moral authority.

This is dangerous ground. If someone is going to be judged by who their pastor is, you have now opened the door to an incredible invasion of privacy and would've been unthinkable a generation or 2 ago.

If religion wishes to remain free in this country, it better put up that wall of separation and fast because the backlash isn't going to be pretty.

If the Wright flap starts a real discussion of the separation of church and state in this country-then it was worth it all. If it continues to be about one angry black preacher, then it's business as usual.

Here's a link to Barack's speech on race if anyone is interested in reading it. http://www.drudgereport.com/flashos.htm

It's very good-but I don't know how our sound byte media and society will do with it.

 

[lilyv]

I agree with you. I really think this whole Obama/Wright flap is going to give a voice to the backlash that has been building in many Americans. I think many Americans have had it with religion meddling in politics. Doubly so when these religious creeps like Hagee, Haggard, Swaggart, Falwell, Robertson, Wright, etc. have lost their moral authority.

This is dangerous ground. If someone is going to be judged by who their pastor is, you have now opened the door to an incredible invasion of privacy and would've been unthinkable a generation or 2 ago.

If religion wishes to remain free in this country, it better put up that wall of separation and fast because the backlash isn't going to be pretty.

You make some great points! It is sad what offends, and what is considered acceptable.
Haggee, Haggard, Swaggart...they're just good southern gentlemen preachin' the word....(Haggee, Haggard, Swaggart...too bad they're not lawyers, their names would make a nice firm.)

 

[eclectics]

This is dangerous ground. If someone is going to be judged by who their pastor is, you have now opened the door to an incredible invasion of privacy and would've been unthinkable a generation or 2 ago.

ITA. But if you consider that their role model is our current Commander In Chief, it's perfectly understandable why some think it's acceptable.

 

[Mugg Mann]

The first rule of thumb in issues involving religion;

Always remember that many people have the viewpoint that "My religion is good, and other religions that are anything other than a minor variant of my religion are bad", and no rational discussion can be had with those particular folks.

I find that particular philosophy extremely helpful in understanding much of what I observe around me.

 

[shortbun]

Have you seen the speech Barack gave answering the issues of his pastor and racism?(Go to yahoo and find the link to ABC Live. I don't know how to post this link) It's an amazing speech and shows again his elegance, graciousness and statesmanship. He is so good on his feet in the face of challenge. I want Barack Obama as my next President. His ability to think extemporaneously in a rational, moral and hugely intelligent, informed manner are just the very characteristics we need to heal this country. Barack Obama!

 

[WildernessBride]

Have you seen the speech Barack gave answering the issues of his pastor and racism?(Go to yahoo and find the link to ABC Live. I don't know how to post this link) It's an amazing speech and shows again his elegance, graciousness and statesmanship. He is so good on his feet in the face of challenge. I want Barack Obama as my next President. His ability to think extemporaneously in a rational, moral and hugely intelligent, informed manner are just the very characteristics we need to heal this country. Barack Obama!

Right there with you!

 

[eclectics]

The first rule of thumb in issues involving religion;

Always remember that many people have the viewpoint that "My religion is good, and other religions that are anything other than a minor variant of my religion are bad", and no rational discussion can be had with those particular folks.

I find that particular philosophy extremely helpful in understanding much of what I observe around me.

It's always amazed me that the hate spewed by some fundamentalist evangelical ministers and lay people gets a pass from some people, while any hint of the same from a denomination other than their own gets condemned vehemently. But, taken in the context you have described, I suppose it's understandable. Doesn't make it right, however, and people who subscribe to this double standard should be called out on it.

 

[lilyv]

It's always amazed me that the hate spewed by some fundamentalist evangelical ministers and lay people gets a pass from some people, while any hint of the same from a denomination other than their own gets condemned vehemently. But, taken in the context you have described, I suppose it's understandable. Doesn't make it right, however, and people who subscribe to this double standard should be called out on it.

Well put.

 

[chris1gill]

Have you seen the speech Barack gave answering the issues of his pastor and racism?(Go to yahoo and find the link to ABC Live. I don't know how to post this link) It's an amazing speech and shows again his elegance, graciousness and statesmanship. He is so good on his feet in the face of challenge. I want Barack Obama as my next President. His ability to think extemporaneously in a rational, moral and hugely intelligent, informed manner are just the very characteristics we need to heal this country. Barack Obama!