The Liberal Thread #2 - No Debate Please

[punkin]

Joining an all volunteer army, especially during war time, when you know your life will be at risk, is heroic.. Suriving as a POW for 8 years takes and enormous amount of courage and heart..That is absolutely heroic..Coming home after surviving that and making something good and decent out of your life when many would never have recoveres is heroic..
I'm sorry but John McCain is to me a standard bearer for heroes...
It doesn't mean I agree with his politics though.
When people like Derek Jeter, David Ortiz, Peyton Manning etc are hailed as heroes, certainly people like John McCain deserve that title.
They should be giving Disney Parades for injured US soldiers when they come home before they have them for the Red Sox or the Giants

JMO

I really do not want to start a debate on the subject. My DD asked a question I did not know how to answer. Hound gave me an answer. I apologize for any offense my question may have caused.

 

[JennyMominRI]

I really do not want to start a debate on the subject. My DD asked a question I did not know how to answer. Hound gave me an answer. I apologize for any offense my question may have caused.

I'm not offended I just wanted to give my POV.

 

[chris1gill]

- Today.....finally realizing that Florida & Michigan has to be settled (since the Governors are pushing it). They are NOW wondering HOW it will be settled. PSST.....since none of the candidates campaigned there .....THERE HAS TO BE A DO-OVER.....& the media still doesn't see that.

The question today should be WHEN the do over will take place. (Answer: BEFORE PENN. - MAYBE FL IN 3-4 WEEKS & MI IN 4-5 WEEKS.)


.

You've missed something.... there is nobody willing to pay for these primary's to be re-held. In Florida it is a Republican legislature, but the Democratic party there had no problem moving the date up, even after hearing the delegates would not be seated... The DNC said there will be no delegates, the State did it anyways, they hold culpability.

Michigan, it's a Democratic legislature and they did the same thing, moved the Primary up, even while knowing the consequence, they're not willing to pay for it either as far as I know. The Republican Governor in Florida is adamant they will not pay. Well, I don't think the DNC should pay either. Perhaps the candidates should pay, and then the candidates should receive some portion of money back that has been generated as revenue for having the Primary. You know a kickback from the hotels, the restaurants, the whatever business that has benefited by the candidates paying for the elections.... Sounds outlandish, but somebody has to pay & IMHO it should be the people that started the process moving in the first place, and that would be the state legislature.

 

[NewJersey]

Why does the 2,025 required to nominate include the delegates awarded to MI and FL? If they are not seated, why are they included in how much the candidate needs to clinch?

 

[Hound 109]

Cr*p.....McCain's father was an Admiral not a General.

My father & 8 other Naval members of my family just rolled over in their graves.

.

 

[punkin]

I'm not offended I just wanted to give my POV.

That's fine. I happen to disagree that every soldier is a hero, but that's just my POV.

 

[wvrevy]

Two Questions:

- Will the "Do Over(s)" take place before or after Penn. ?


- What are some of the items that the SuperDs will look at (or would there only be ONE thing)? I think they'll look at the following in order of importance:

- Who would most likely beat McCain?
- The popular vote.
- The States that each won.
- # Delegates (the number of....& whether they were Caucussed or popular vote.
- Will we lose the black vote (or will they stay home) if we pick Hillary?
- Will we the Latinos vote for McCain if we pick Obama?
- Were the wins in closed primaries or open?
- Who had been vetted most. (note this won't take place till a couple of weeks before the convention.)
- Others that i can't think of now.


But this is what they will tell us is most important:

- Popular Vote.
- Delegates.
Period.


I'm aware most support Obama here, & I'm curious what you all think.

.

1 - After.

2 - The only thing that should matter are delegates. That's what the rules say. That's also what the party leadership has said. You simply can not write off the entire country for the sake of California and New York. Other states COUNT, even if they don't have huge populations, and even if they weren't won by Hillary Clinton.

 

[Hound 109]

You've missed something.... there is nobody willing to pay for these primary's to be re-held. In Florida it is a Republican legislature, but the Democratic party there had no problem moving the date up, even after hearing the delegates would not be seated... The DNC said there will be no delegates, the State did it anyways, they hold culpability.

Michigan, it's a Democratic legislature and they did the same thing, moved the Primary up, even while knowing the consequence, they're not willing to pay for it either as far as I know. The Republican Governor in Florida is adamant they will not pay. Well, I don't think the DNC should pay either. Perhaps the candidates should pay, and then the candidates should receive some portion of money back that has been generated as revenue for having the Primary. You know a kickback from the hotels, the restaurants, the whatever business that has benefited by the candidates paying for the elections.... Sounds outlandish, but somebody has to pay & IMHO it should be the people that started the process moving in the first place, and that would be the state legislature.

The Democrats will pay. The democrats cannot afford to have MI & FL not to have a say in this for 13 -16 reasons that have been discussed.

Guys....it's gonna happen...it will come out of one, two or 13 pockets to pay for it, but it's gonna happen.

The question is when.

 

[Hound 109]

1 - After.

2 - The only thing that should matter are delegates. That's what the rules say. That's also what the party leadership has said. You simply can not write off the entire country for the sake of California and New York. Other states COUNT, even if they don't have huge populations, and even if they weren't won by Hillary Clinton.

The RULES say that the SuperDelegates will have a say. (since apparently neither candidate can seal the deal w/o them).

The only thing that MATTERS is what (of the many things....including total pledged delagates) will the Super Ds use to come to their final decision.

 

[punkin]

The Democrats will pay. The democrats cannot afford to have MI & FL not to have a say in this for 13 -16 reasons that have been discussed.

Guys....it's gonna happen...it will come out of one, two or 13 pockets to pay for it, but it's gonna happen.

The question is when.

I agree. There is no other way to get around the fact that more than 2M democrats are currently disenfranchised.

 

[Hound 109]

Why does the 2,025 required to nominate include the delegates awarded to MI and FL? If they are not seated, why are they included in how much the candidate needs to clinch?

Good question. Maybe they intended to award the MI & FL delegates after the winner was announced (& didn't figure as close a race as it is).

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

I don't think our friends on the other side of the aisle have given us any reasons why we should vote for their new standard bearer, John McCain. There must be 1 or 2 they could share. Or not?

Here's 1 they don't seem to want to mention: McCain did say the next president would have to deal with ending the war. Maybe they missed that part?

Doesn't he know he hurts the troops and gives aid and comfort to our enemies when he says those things? For shame, Sen. McCain...for shame!!!!!!!

 

[robinb]

You've missed something.... there is nobody willing to pay for these primary's to be re-held. In Florida it is a Republican legislature, but the Democratic party there had no problem moving the date up, even after hearing the delegates would not be seated... The DNC said there will be no delegates, the State did it anyways, they hold culpability.

The Democrats voted for it because it was on the same bill as the paper trail for the electronic voting machines. They could not vote against the paper trail so they had to vote for the change in the primary date.

 

[wvrevy]

The RULES say that the SuperDelegates will have a say. (since apparently neither candidate can seal the deal w/o them).

The only thing that MATTERS is what (of the many things....including total pledged delagates) will the Super Ds use to come to their final decision.

But they were put in place to prevent a situation like what happened with Gary Hart. They were intended to keep the party from nominating a candidate that was involved in a scandal - something that hit mid-campaign and preceded a string of losses - and would have no chance of winning the general election. They were not intended to overrule the vote of the people.

As for how the Supes will make their decision, the party leadership will go a long way towards influencing that, and the party leadership has clearly and unequivically(sp?) said that they should go to the candidate that ends the process with the most delegates. Quotes from Pelosi and Dean and others are all out there about this issue.

I've seen the Democratic Party do some truly dumb things over the years - the Florida/Michigan mess comes immediately to mind - but I don't think anybody is going to support overturning the will of the people of this country just because California and New York might not like it.

 

[JennyMominRI]

I'm hearing on another forum that there will be a caucus in Michigan and mail in voting in Fla..Has anyone else heard this?

 

[eclectics]

I'm hearing on another forum that there will be a caucus in Michigan and mail in voting in Fla..Has anyone else heard this?

I've heard rumours, but nothing official from the DNC. At least, not to my knowledge. Maybe something just happened?

 

[JennyMominRI]

I've heard rumours, but nothing official from the DNC. At least, not to my knowledge. Maybe something just happened?

http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_...s-likely-says-dnc-rules-committee-member.aspx

 

[wvrevy]

http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_...s-likely-says-dnc-rules-committee-member.aspx

If that is accurate - and it's a pretty good source to make me think it is - Hillary's camp is going to be climbing the ever-lvon' walls. They do not like the caucus format (with good reason...they keep losing 'em).

Now if Florida will just get it together, we can put that whole sorry mess behind us.

 

[eclectics]

If that is accurate - and it's a pretty good source to make me think it is - Hillary's camp is going to be climbing the ever-lvon' walls. They do not like the caucus format (with good reason...they keep losing 'em).

Now if Florida will just get it together, we can put that whole sorry mess behind us.

It's inevitable that ANY solution to this is going to cause strife, chaos, and lawsuits. There is NO fair way for the DNC to handle this except to turn back time and not do it in the first place. No matter how they attempt to "fix" it someone is going to scream bloody murder. Thanks for the link, Jenny.

 

[NewJersey]

Hillary's response to the MI caucus and FL vote:

“I would not accept a caucus. I think that would be a great disservice to the 2 million people who turned out and voted. I think that they want their votes counted. And you know a lot of people would be disenfranchised because of the timing and whatever the particular rules were. This is really going to be a serious challenge for the Democratic Party because the voters in Michigan and Florida are the ones being hurt, and certainly with respect to Florida the Democrats were dragged into doing what they did by a Republican governor and a Republican Legislature. They didn’t have any choice whatsoever. And I don’t think that there should be any do-over or any kind of a second run in Florida. I think Florida should be seated.”

Color me SHOCKED!