The Liberal Thread #2 - No Debate Please

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Gosh, I never knew he hated America.


That was pretty good.:lmao:

I have noticed that plenty of his quotes are being posted and his thoughtful insight is being praised, but for some reason the quote of his about Iraq, is largely ignored by some conservatives.


Maybe it's just me though.....
 
That was pretty good.:lmao:

I have noticed that plenty of his quotes are being posted and his thoughtful insight is being praised, but for some reason the quote of his about Iraq, is largely ignored by some conservatives.


Maybe it's just me though.....

I don't know if any of you have ever seen it, but in college I viewed a film of a debtae between William F. Buckley and Groucho Marx over our involvement in the Vietnam War (Groucho was an anti-war activist). It was quite a debate.
 
RIP, William F. Buckley.

A throwback to the days when even if you didn't agree with one's position, you argued your side articulately and intelligently, and you made concessions to the other side when the facts called for it. I shudder to think how, if he were starting his career today, he would be forced by "media consultants" to abandon his approach and become just another partisan talking head on television.

There's a great many people on both sides of the political aisle who could learn a lot from you.




If some people ever wonder why I lurk on this thread and look forward to reading different view points from my own, look no further than this post above. This also can be used as an example why I don't care for shows and hosts like Hannity, Rush, Coulter, etc.

To me your post speaks volumes about you, Mugg. From reading your previous posts over the years, one would get the impression that you're 180 degrees opposite from Mr Buckley. Yet you took the time to acknowledge the man and his life in a respectful way. No names were called, no disrespect given and that says a lot to me. We need more of this kind of behavior demonstrated by you, in this country and from both sides. Just my two cents.
 
I don't know if any of you have ever seen it, but in college I viewed a film of a debtae between William F. Buckley and Groucho Marx over our involvement in the Vietnam War (Groucho was an anti-war activist). It was quite a debate.

If you ever, and I mean ever, find out where that debate can be viewed, I would be in your debt forever.

I recently took the 14-year-old Muggette through Duck Soup. The movie is seventy-five years old, and it's a better explanation of the Iraq War than the official explanation itself.
 

If you ever, and I mean ever, find out where that debate can be viewed, I would be in your debt forever.

I recently took the 14-year-old Muggette through Duck Soup. The movie is seventy-five years old, and it's a better explanation of the Iraq War than the official explanation itself.

I LOVE Duck Soup!

I'll tell you, I've been in search for a copy for a while, and will definitely post if I get my hands on it. The flash points were memorable, but to your point earlier, the reasoned discussion that too place between those two really puts our modern idea of a debate to shame.

Buckley was a solid intellect and the national debate is lessened for his having left it.
 
If some people ever wonder why I lurk on this thread and look forward to reading different view points from my own, look no further than this post above. This also can be used as an example why I don't care for shows and hosts like Hannity, Rush, Coulter, etc.

To me your post speaks volumes about you, Mugg. From reading your previous posts over the years, one would get the impression that you're 180 degrees opposite from Mr Buckley. Yet you took the time to acknowledge the man and his life in a respectful way. No names were called, no disrespect given and that says a lot to me. We need more of this kind of behavior demonstrated by you, in this country and from both sides. Just my two cents.

ITA.

And to jump off from Eddie's point-I'd like to make a suggestion. For the remaining 200 and some days until the election, can we keep our criticism to the candidates and issues and refrain from name-calling the supporters?

I've tried to send that message regarding the Hillary and Obama supporters, but I think it would be worthwhile to see it happen regarding the McCain supporters as well.

I'm supporting a candidate who has been openly talking about changing the discourse, so I'm taking my one little step to try and do that in my corner of the world. :flower3:
 
I agree. I don't like having these SuperDelegates at all and I really dislike the idea that they would go against the will of the voters.

And unfortunately we're stuck with them.

The problem, I think, is that neither Obama or Hillary is going to "win" the number of delegates needed to legitimately get the nod without the supers.

And - also leaving a bad taste - both candidates are "bribing" the superdelegates! I posted about that weeks ago - and you know who has the most money.........

I am going to post an opinion piece here by RealClearPolitics. I am hoping we can discuss without bashing either candidate:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/02/dumb_party_rules_keep_clinton.html

February 27, 2008
Why Should Hillary Drop Out Now?
By Jack Kelly

Syndicated columnist Robert Novak and Newsweek's Jonathan Alter have written columns this week urging Sen. Hillary Clinton to drop out of the Democratic race for president now, before the primaries March 4 in Ohio and Texas.

This is ridiculous. If Sen. Clinton loses in Ohio or Texas (and especially if she loses in both) "Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin" not only will be scribbled on the wall of her campaign headquarters, it'll be flashing in neon lights from the Goodyear blimp. March 4 is next Tuesday. We can wait until then to see what the Moving Finger writes. Hillary Clinton certainly will.

Mr. Novak and Mr. Alter argue Sen. Clinton should drop out now because even if she wins all the delegates in the remaining primaries and caucuses, she won't have enough to win the nomination.

That's true. But thanks to the Democrats' idiot rules, Sen. Obama would have to win 75 percent of the remaining delegates to claim the nomination outright, something he can't possibly do, if Sen. Clinton wins, however narrowly, in Ohio and Texas.

Elections are the best way to determine who should hold political power. But for elections to have meaning, winners have to win, and losers lose. The principal reason why Democrats face the (for them) nightmarish prospect of a brokered convention in Denver is because they have mandated proportional representation in all their primaries and caucuses. So winners win only a little, and losers don't lose much.

The other reason why there could be a deadlock in Denver is the Democratic fondness for "super delegates." The Democrats have, I think wisely, made all Democratic senators, governors and congressman automatically delegates. Who better would know the strengths and weaknesses of Democratic presidential candidates than these people, all of whom were elected to their offices?

But there is no sound principle Democrats can't screw up, and they screwed up the superdelegate concept by extending it to the chairs of the left-handed lesbian caucus and the transgendered dwarf caucus and every other special interest group you could think of. The result is the Democrats have 796 super delegates whose votes are not bound by the results of the primary or caucus in their state. Barring a total meltdown by Sen. Clinton, it's the super delegates who'll determine who the Democratic nominee will be.

This has caused angst among supporters of Sen. Obama. The super delegates, they say, have a moral obligation to vote the way their states did. This could produce hilarious results. Sens. Ted Kennedy and John Kerry of Massachussetts have been Sen. Obama's biggest name supporters in Congress. Are they obliged to vote for Mrs. Clinton because she won the Massachussetts primary?

Supporters of Sen. Obama understandably would be angry if he loses the nomination despite having won more delegates in the primaries and caucuses. But if Hillary wins in Texas, Ohio and Pennsylvania, she has a good case to make.

Sen. Obama has a lead in delegates chiefly because he racked up huge wins in caucuses in red states. For instance, he won Idaho, 82-17, and Kansas, 74-23. The lopsided margins were mostly because of the mind-boggling failure of the Clinton campaign to organize in the caucus states. But no Democrat who stopped smoking dope more than 30 seconds ago thinks Sen. Obama could carry Idaho or Kansas in a general election.

Sen. Clinton has won primaries in New York, New Jersey, California, Massachussetts, and by her reckoning, Florida and Michigan. If she wins Ohio, Texas and Pennsylvania, she can claim to have won the big states a Democrat must carry to win in November.

A counter argument is that Sen. Obama is the more electable. Current polls show him leading presumptive GOP nominee John McCain by 3-4 points, with Hillary trailing Sen. McCain by about the same margin.

But current polls are deceptive, Hillary's camp argues. Sen. Clinton is well known. All the people who dislike her already dislike her, so she's got nowhere to go but up.

Sen. Obama, on the other hand, may be at the apogee of his popularity. He's soared to the heights on elegant but mostly empty rhetoric. Support for him is likely to decline when his resume and record get more scrutiny. If she wins in Ohio and Texas, Mrs. Clinton can reasonably argue to the super delegates the air is leaking from the Obama balloon. But that's only if she wins in Ohio and Texas. We can wait a week to find out.
 
I find it reprehensible that these Super Delegates could decide this. To me it's just plain idiotic.
 
Obama has the most money, but he doesn't have the history that the Clintons do. I'm sure there are SuperDelegates that owe them for past favors or want their help in the future. If Hillary wins, I'm sure a SuperDelegate that supported her who needs help in their own election campaign would get plenty of help from one of the best politicians in the Democratic party.

They've both got chips to bargain with, and I bet they're both burning up the phone lines.
 
Obama has the most money, but he doesn't have the history that the Clintons do. I'm sure there are SuperDelegates that owe them for past favors or want their help in the future. If Hillary wins, I'm sure a SuperDelegate that supported her who needs help in their own election campaign would get plenty of help from one of the best politicians in the Democratic party.

They've both got chips to bargain with, and I bet they're both burning up the phone lines.

Right - but people are leaving team Hillary - it seems on a daily basis. Human nature is that they like to be on the side of a winner, and Barack does have front runner status......

Seriously - I think the only way to get through this is that they have to team up. I was thinking tonight - is there any reason why a VP can't also hold a cabinet post? Should Hillary lose the nod - could you see her as VP and Secretary of Health & Human Services? They team up - compromise - he agrees to promote her health plan (her strength & passion) and she backs the rest of his agenda up (which is supposedly the same as hers.....) and joins his administration?

While is it generally believed that more Obama supporters won't support Hillary - I think there's a significant number of Hillary supporters who won't support him if this doesn't end respectfully.........
 
I can personally tell you that I'm going to take a page from my son's book on competition. When the game's over, get something to eat and find something else to do. It's always worked for him. He gives 200%, wins sportsmanship awards and never walks away shaking his head. He simply loves the game, win or lose.
 
Just checking in :).... I did watch some returns last Tuesday from the primaries...As I was on a cruise group with mostly Brits, they are very pleased with the way election 2008 is looking..
 
Just checking in :).... I did watch some returns last Tuesday from the primaries...As I was on a cruise group with mostly Brits, they are very pleased with the way election 2008 is looking..



Hi Jenny. Welcome back! :)
 
I find it reprehensible that these Super Delegates could decide this. To me it's just plain idiotic.


Call me naive, but I truly believe that if things get to the point of inevitability and Hillary sees the handwriting on the wall, she'll do what's right for the party before having a knock down drag out and getting the Supers involved. Just a feeling I have.
 
Call me naive, but I truly believe that if things get to the point of inevitability and Hillary sees the handwriting on the wall, she'll do what's right for the party before having a knock down drag out and getting the Supers involved. Just a feeling I have.


Naive? :confused3 Maybe. But I sincerely hope you're right. :flower3:
 
Agreed! He didn't whine, he didn't complain, (you would have never heard him moan about fairness),...he just called it as he saw it. I appreciate thoughtful, mature, political discourse.

So do I. Sadly there's scant evidence of that today.
 
So do I. Sadly there's scant evidence of that today.

OFF THE THREAD! OFF THE THREAD! WHY DO YOU COME HERE TO PLAGUE US WITH YOUR IMMORAL RIGHT WING POLITICAL COMMENTARY! GO BACK TO WHERE YOU CAME!

;) - Just teasing.

~Amanda
 
OFF THE THREAD! OFF THE THREAD! WHY DO YOU COME HERE TO PLAGUE US WITH YOUR IMMORAL RIGHT WING POLITICAL COMMENTARY! GO BACK TO WHERE YOU CAME!

;) - Just teasing.

~Amanda


Amanda's teasing, John, but I'm not. This is a serious question. Why are some of the posters on the conservative thread SO hostile to the 'non-debate' posters who aren't of their political ilk? Got any idea? :confused3
 
Amanda's teasing, John, but I'm not. This is a serious question. Why are some of the posters on the conservative thread SO hostile to the 'non-debate' posters who aren't of their political ilk? Got any idea? :confused3


I don't know. You'd have to ask them.

I'd like to know why are some of the posters on *this* thread are so hostile toward others (no one specific in mind) not of their political persuasion. Got any ideas?
 
I don't know. You'd have to ask them.

I'd like to know why are some of the posters on *this* thread are so hostile toward others (no one specific in mind) not of their political persuasion. Got any ideas?

For me personally there are some posters where I cannot get along with them. And typically they are of the us vs. them variety. Dejr_8 has been needling with me from the beginning even when I was agreeing with stuff he was saying. That wasn't good enough - I also had to sign the dotted line that I said I would only vote republican. People who deal with absolutes are insufferable.

Meanwhile I find I can have intelligent dialouge with many people on that thread - Miss Jasmine, John, and Bet to name a few. but I get so aggravated with the "OFF WITH HER HEAD!" crap that I usually give up before the reasonable people come along to comment.

~Amanda
 
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