The "Latecomers" Brokeback Mountain Thread

[Christine]

Hi everyone!!! I guess I'm living under a rock or something because I finally saw Brokeback Mountain last night. Now that I've seen it, I've got no one to discuss it with. So, do we have some people here who have recently seen it and would like to comment or some "oldies" who can talk to me about it?

For those that haven't seen it, there are some spoilers to follow so don't read if you don't want to know.


First off, I enjoyed this movie much more than I thought I would. I've never been interested in cowboy/country type movies so I dragged my feet on renting this. But, I really enjoyed it and find my self thinking about it off and on today.

I think both parts (Ennis and Jack) were very well acted. What I came away with at the end of this movie was that I don't really think that the character of Ennis was gay. I think he had a genuine love for Jack but he just didn't strike me as being truly gay. There was no doubt in my mind that Jack was gay. I guess what I found disturbing about the whole thing though was that when Jack and Ennis had their long separations, that Jack sought out random homosexual encounters. This kind of tarnished my respect for Jack and his feelings for Ennis. Maybe I read to much into that?

Also, am I correct in assuming that Jack was murdered and the *story* that his wife gave of his death was just that--a story? It kind of happened quick and I was thinking "whoa, what?"

All in all, I thought the movie was well done and very sad at the end.

 

[Forevryoung]

I'm with ya! I just saw it for the first time last week and thought it was good. Very very sad though-

I agree with your take on the whole murder thing. I guess I sympathize with both men although they reacted differently. I think that Ennis was homosexual.

 

[Christine]

I think that Ennis was homosexual.

I'm kind of struggling with that one.

I realized he participated in the *affair* with Jack; however, he seemed to still enjoy women somewhat and never appeared to look at another man besides Jack. Can't say that about Jack though.

 

[janette]

I think Ennis was gay but not able to accept it, only with Jack. He had relationships with women but not successfully.

Yes, the Jack was killed for being gay this is clearer in the short story than in the movie but the same symbols were used. It is never outright said but it is part of what Ennis fears in being openly gay and his worst fear is realized with Jack's death.

 

[Pooh67_68]

I believe Ennis was gay, but he did a better job of hiding it than Jake did. Yes I do think Jake was murdered and his wife just made up the story.

As for Jake seeking out others while he was separated from Ennis, he told Ennis why. May not have been right but I believe that if Ennis had been more available then Jake wouldn't have went looking.

 

[LukenDC]

BBM is in part about the devastating consequences of internalized homophobia. Before I discuss my take on the film, I want to define two key terms. A homosexual is someone whose primary sexual and romantic attraction is towards the same gender. Gay is a relatively recent, politically laden term referring to homosexuals who have reached a level of self-acceptance and openness about their sexuality. All gays are homosexuals, but not all homosexuals are gay. During research on sexuality and sexually transmitted diseases, researchers often eschew the terms "gay" and "homosexual" in favor of the term "men who have sex with men" because a lot of men whose primary sex partners are men refuse to label themselves as gay or homosexual due to stereotypes, internalized homophobia, and misinformation. And of course there are men who are truly bisexual.

Both Jack and Ennis are homosexual. Jack is better able to accept who he is, but Ennis fights it due in large part to the childhood trauma of being forced to see the mutilated, dead body of a gay man. In Ennis' mind, being gay leads to being "the joke of the town" and ultimately a violent death. Like Jack and many real life homosexual/gay men, Ennis does have sexual relations with women but his primary attraction is for men. The novella even mentions that Ennis fantasizes about Jack when he is with women. It also reveals, and this is subtly depicted in the film as well, that Ennis' preferred method of sex with Alma is anal sex--the same kind that he shares with Jack.

Jack's death is ambiguous. The death by tire iron is clearly in Ennis' imagination. It justifies Ennis' lifelong belief that men who share their lives together are murdered. Jack may have been murdered or he may truly have died in an accident. I personally believe that Jack died in an accident. Annie Proulx and screenwriters Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana have said that what Ennis believes is more important than what really happened to Jack.

The novella is wonderful and helps to clarify some of the ambiguity in the film. I stronly recommend that people who enjoyed the film read the story. Next Saturday I am attending the National Gay Lesbian Task Force dinner and Annie Proulx will be there to receive an award. I will be interested to see what she says and hopefully get to meet her. BBM is a masterpiece of beauty and tragedy.

 

[Stacey2grls]

I'm a late comer too. I just saw it for the first time a couple of weeks ago. I saw it by myself I should add, my stupid husband! He flat out refused to see it. Well, I thought that Heath ledger (sp?) was amazing, he should of won the best actor academy award for that one. His character was so haunting, and I found the movie to be sad, moving, incredibly eye opening, and just awesome. If anyone is on the fence about seeing it, they should give it a try.

 

[Christine]

Luke,

Thank you for what you wrote. Made me understand it a lot better. I know that you have loved this movie but I have been avoiding what you have said about it because I hadn't seen the movie and didn't want to read any "spoilers."

I think I will read the novella. I did get that Jack was a lot more accepting of who is was and that Ennis could not accept himself. I also was wondering if the "flash" of Jack's murder was what Ennis imagined or if the movie was showing a glimpse of what really happened.

Stacey2girls--I agree that Heath Ledger did a great job and I also think he deserved an award. I also think that Jake Gyllenhal was very good too and he could have easily won something also. I guess at the end of the movie I just felt so sad for the Jack character.

 

[decaff38]

Hubby watched with me on Fri night. He said he would never watch it then I said I was bringing it home and watching it. I started it and he came to watch. He didn't make it through the intimate scenes but he would come back and watch inbetween. I was glad he watched it with me. He hasn't said anything yet but he will. I thought the acting was amazing!! And the story line was so unique and passionate. Full of love for many different people in each of their lives and the major impact that was still there from each of their childhoods and need for love to make them whole. I was so impressed with the plot and the rythem of this film. I did think the beginning move a bit slow though.

 

[Stacey2grls]

BBM is in part about the devastating consequences of internalized homophobia. Before I discuss my take on the film, I want to define two key terms. A homosexual is someone whose primary sexual and romantic attraction is towards the same gender. Gay is a relatively recent, politically laden term referring to homosexuals who have reached a level of self-acceptance and openness about their sexuality. All gays are homosexuals, but not all homosexuals are gay. During research on sexuality and sexually transmitted diseases, researchers often eschew the terms "gay" and "homosexual" in favor of the term "men who have sex with men" because a lot of men whose primary sex partners are men refuse to label themselves as gay or homosexual due to stereotypes, internalized homophobia, and misinformation. And of course there are men who are truly bisexual.

Both Jack and Ennis are homosexual. Jack is better able to accept who he is, but Ennis fights it due in large part to the childhood trauma of being forced to see the mutilated, dead body of a gay man. In Ennis' mind, being gay leads to being "the joke of the town" and ultimately a violent death. Like Jack and many real life homosexual/gay men, Ennis does have sexual relations with women but his primary attraction is for men. The novella even mentions that Ennis fantasizes about Jack when he is with women. It also reveals, and this is subtly depicted in the film as well, that Ennis' preferred method of sex with Alma is anal sex--the same kind that he shares with Jack.

Jack's death is ambiguous. The death by tire iron is clearly in Ennis' imagination. It justifies Ennis' lifelong belief that men who share their lives together are murdered. Jack may have been murdered or he may truly have died in an accident. I personally believe that Jack died in an accident. Annie Proulx and screenwriters Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana have said that what Ennis believes is more important than what really happened to Jack.

The novella is wonderful and helps to clarify some of the ambiguity in the film. I stronly recommend that people who enjoyed the film read the story. Next Saturday I am attending the National Gay Lesbian Task Force dinner and Annie Proulx will be there to receive an award. I will be interested to see what she says and hopefully get to meet her. BBM is a masterpiece of beauty and tragedy.

Thank you very much for sheding light on a topic that I do not know much about. Give us an update on how your dinner goes, and congratulations on your award.

 

[simpilotswife]

BBM still moves and haunts me akthough I have seen it several times.

I agree that Ennis was gay although he was able to repress it with everyone but Jack. Jack just seemed to have a way of making him open up and relate that I don't think that he had ever had with anyone.

 

[HomeSweetDisney]

I just recently saw this for the first time as well and was thoroughly impressed. Usually, when a movie is as talked about and hyped up as this one was, I end up being disappointed when I actually get around to seeing it. But in Brokeback's case, I think it completely lived up to the hype. It was a beautifully crafted film with some stellar acting. Heath Ledger's performance in particular was very haunting and effective. It was all just so sad. When two people share such an intense and deep connection but live in a society where it is just not acceptable to be openly together simply because you are of the same gender. All in all, a very good movie. I really enjoyed it and after finally seeing it, I think it should have won the Oscar for Best Picture especially since I wasn't all that impressed with Crash.

 

[janette]

Jack's death is ambiguous. The death by tire iron is clearly in Ennis' imagination. It justifies Ennis' lifelong belief that men who share their lives together are murdered. Jack may have been murdered or he may truly have died in an accident. I personally believe that Jack died in an accident. Annie Proulx and screenwriters Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana have said that what Ennis believes is more important than what really happened to Jack.

I hadn't thought of it that way, Ennis' belief that Jack was murdered was clear but his view was colored by his life experience and it wasn't validated.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

OK, so I'm a really latecomer to BB. Wanted to see it before now, but just watched it tonight for the first time. Have read some of the old threads too.

I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere. Does anyone else think that when Ennis leaves Jack's parents house, that the ashes are wrapped up in the shirt? There is a silent head nod between Ennis and the mother just after the father says "he will be buried in the family plot". I think he took them, and he's silently assuring her that he'll take them and put them where Jack himself wished them to be - BB. Interesting that the mother says "come back and see us sometime" but you kind of know that's not going to happen once father finds out what happened (unless mother becomes really clever). That's how it struck me, anyway.

I really enjoyed the movie.

 

[LindsayDunn228]

I am a latecomer as well. I watched this movie for the first time last week. I wanted to see what all the controversy was about.

- The cinematography was outstanding. I have never seen such a beautiful movie (A River Runs Through It was also good too. BORING movie, but gorgeous location).

- I had to turn on the subtitles because Heath Ledger was so difficult to understand. That was a little annoying.

- I was shocked people were so offended over this movie. I think it's true: the people that voiced negativity the most were the ones who hadn't even seen it.

- The only thing I really disliked about the movie was I felt it glorified adultery. Was the watcher supposed to be happy that Jack and Ennis cheated on their wives over such a long period of time? This is a sticky point with me. I think marriage vows are VERY serious and I felt this movie made the watcher want to cheer for Ennis and Jack to be unfaithful.

- Everyone said it was a disturbing and haunting movie for them. I finished it feeling very let down. It had no resolution. It just ended. Bam. I have heard people bawled at the ending. I just didn't get it.

Glad I finally got around to seeing it. I don't really get why people were so huffy about the movie. Have these people see "Original Sin?" You want to talk about a ton of T&A, be offended about that.

ETA: I really could have done without seeing Anne Hathaway's breasts.

 

[LukenDC]

Pea-n-Me---I do not think that Ennis was able to take Jack's ashes, although you are not the first to hope that that is what occurred. There was no hint of that happening in the short story. But your interpretation is just as valid as my own or that of anyone else.

Lindsay Dunn---I thought that the film portrayed the pain and frustration of the wives, especially Alma. In a perfect society, Jack and Ennis would not have had to get married to live in mainstream society. In their imperfect society, they were in love, could not be together as a couple, and dragged down two innocent people with them. The wives are a central part of the tragedy of the story.

Given the fact that there have been at least two films released in the past year---without much controversy--- that showed people being graphically butchered and snuffed for entertainment (I'm referring to Hostel and Saw III), I am disappointed that a love story between two men would generate so much controversy.

 

[JunieJay]

I hated that movie. It was one of those where everyone in the theatre was crying and I was annoyed. I guess I hate melodrama. I saw it with my gay friend and he wasn't annoyed, he was laughing. He was on and on about how Jack and Ennis needed to come to Dupont Circle and fret over what they were having for dinner tonight, the things gay men of 2005 (or was it 2006) fret over. Hey he said it, not me! Don't shoot the messanger please!

 

[LukenDC]

I hated that movie. It was one of those where everyone in the theatre was crying and I was annoyed. I guess I hate melodrama. I saw it with my gay friend and he wasn't annoyed, he was laughing. He was on and on about how Jack and Ennis needed to come to Dupont Circle and fret over what they were having for dinner tonight, the things gay men of 2005 (or was it 2006) fret over. Hey he said it, not me! Don't shoot the messanger please!

Let me preface this by saying that I am not attempting to shoot the messenger.

I live in Dupont Circle and it's the attitudes that exist among many urban gay men that make Brokeback Mountain so important for the gay community. Our progressive urban centers have become so comfortable for gay men that they forget that gay and lesbian people in rural communities are still oppressed and that life was not as cushy even 15-20 years ago.

Someone asked me why Jack and Ennis did not simply move to San Francisco. In 1963, even SF was not the gay mecca that it is now. Jack and Ennis are simple men---high school dropouts with no real career prospects other than sheep herding and cattle ranching. Jack marries into money, but Ennis is dirt poor. The big city is not an option for two simple country boys nor should all gay people have to move into a city in order to be themselves. As Ennis says, the only traveling he has done has been around the handle of a coffee pot.

Brokeback Mountain is not universally loved by all gay people and we should not expect it to be. It is a work of art that, like all works of art, is open to interpretation and varying emotional reactions. That said, I hope that at the very least it is thought provoking and causes many urban gays and lesbians to reflect on the fear, oppression, internalized homophobia, and violence experienced by many rural and small town homosexuals.

 

[JunieJay]

I live in Dupont Circle and it's the attitudes that exist among many urban gay men that make Brokeback Mountain so important for the gay community. Our progressive urban centers have become so comfortable for gay men that they forget that gay and lesbian people in rural communities are still oppressed and that life was not as cushy even 15-20 years ago.

I think that was his point. He kept saying they don't make gay people like that anymore. And he was joking when he said it. Perhaps joking about it was his way of covering up some of the hurt or oppression he has felt over the course of his life, I never thought of it that way. I was under the impression he thought the movie a tad bit overdramatic as well, but you do bring up good points.

BTW, hi neighbor! I'm in Georgetown, so we're pretty close by.

 

[azgal81]

I tried to watch it but I found it boring so I sent it back. I'm probably the only one!