The Downfall of DAS and the rise of Fastpass+.... coincidence?

[Sparrow'sLady]

. For those of us from the UK who have to book expensive flights etc. months in advance not knowing whether we will get a DAS or if not what is still available under the new FP+ at relatively short notice will be an issue.

People in the US also book months, sometimes up to 8 - 11 months before, not knowing if they will be approved. I have seen quite a few on this board cancel after denial and they purchased airfare, park tickets, etc.

 

[TLSnell1981]

Since you've been denied DAS, did you try using the "non-DAS" accommodations...even one time?

I haven't been denied. I've used DAS or equivalent for approximated fifteen years. I do not qualify because it's now based on cognitive issues not physical. It's not practical to put small children in line to meet up at a joining point. It's no longer doable when it's just me and DH. An awfully expensive and stressful vacation isn't much of a holiday. I'd rather go to the Caribbean or Europe.

 

[TLSnell1981]

If you choose to believe that the "experience" has been removed for all disabled except those with cognitive challenges, that is certainly your right. Bottom line is that DAS was abused and overused, it was negatively impacting park operations, it had to change to reduce use, and - the biggest thing - accommodations are still available because the fact is, not everyone with a disability needs a DAS in order to experience the parks. You don't have to like it, but to say that only cognitive disabilities are being accommodated is simply untrue.

I disagree...not lying either. This is coming from an interview for a DAS. It was specially stated only for cognitive issues.

 

[jennab]

I disagree...not lying either. This is coming from an interview for a DAS. It was specially stated only for cognitive issues.

Correct (kind of) - DAS is mostly for developmental disabilities. It is not for physical or mobility disability’s (again mostly because there are some who have been approved). But that does not mean Disney isn’t offering ANY accommodations for others. They are offering other accommodations, but of course people want DAS because it’s “better”. Disney changed the requirements for it to be for a smaller set of people for which the queue is the issue.

 

[TLSnell1981]

Correct (kind of) - DAS is mostly for developmental disabilities. It is not for physical or mobility disability’s (again mostly because there are some who have been approved). But that does not mean Disney isn’t offering ANY accommodations for others. They are offering other accommodations, but of course people want DAS because it’s “better”. Disney changed the requirements for it to be for a smaller set of people for which the queue is the issue.

The other accommodations are a hit or miss at best. It's pretty much left up to each CM manning their post at that moment...undergoing in-depth and very personal details each time. Having a parent with multiple disabilities plus hauling a twenty pound oxygen concentrator for a child is no longer considered special needs. Cognitive functions are intact so seriously out of luck. For some being denied the alternative isn't doable. .

 

[Disneylover99]

I've used DAS for the past 15 years...May being my last visit. I know what a line is so I'm expecting to be denied. I'm able to ride 3-4 attractions daily.mThis ''vacation'' is becoming way too stressful and complicated. It appears my days at Disney have come to an end.

If you do decide to return to Disney, I’d still make the DAS call. You never know.
Hope for the best, But plan for the worst.

And I’m not going to recommend return to queue. I think the confusion regarding the return to queue and the various conflicting reports on how to do it is stressing people out. So forget that for now. Many people are feeling overwhelmed by the thought of it. It seems to be just too much for many.

Your best bet? If you can do rope drop and/or visit the last few hours before park closing, you’re sure to get 3 or 4 attractions in with minimal waits most times of the year. Or buying LLMP or single pass lightening lanes might help too.

 

[TLSnell1981]

Adding LLIf you do decide to return to Disney, I’d still make the DAS call. You never know.
Hope for the best, But plan for the worst.

And I’m not going to recommend return to queue. I think the confusion regarding the return to queue and the various conflicting reports on how to do it is stressing people out. So forget that for now. Many people are feeling overwhelmed by the thought of it. It seems to be just too much for many.

Your best bet? If you can do rope drop and/or visit the last few hours before park closing, you’re sure to get 3 or 4 attractions in with minimal waits most times of the year. Or buying LLMP or single pass lightening lanes might help too.

I can't gamble thousands of dollars and my DGKs vacation on a maybe. It's not worth the money or letdown. I remember too well when Disney switched from paper FP. The app was going down multiple times a day which required guest assistance. My DMIL was with us and became so upset with the chaos we gave up on rides. She had multiple health issues...one being dementia. We spent a week doing nothing. Disney's failure was costly for us.

I have lots of grands that we split into 2-3 visits a year. The additional cost of LL is significant...thousands extra yearly. The increased prices and decrease in value is no longer worth it.

Thanks for the suggestions and good vibes. I appreciate your kindness more than you know.

 

[jennab]

The other accommodations are a hit or miss at best. It's pretty much left up to each CM manning their post at that moment...undergoing in-depth and very personal details each time. Having a parent with multiple disabilities plus hauling a twenty pound oxygen concentrator for a child is no longer considered special needs. Cognitive functions are intact so seriously out of luck. For some being denied the alternative isn't doable. .

I feel like alternatives for this are offered such as wheelchair or even wagon if young child with medical equipment. Or most of the party waiting in the standby queue and the disabled person plus 1 other waiting outside of the line until the merge point then going through the LL to meet up.

Part of the issue is, what do people do everywhere else in life? What do they do waiting for fireworks, at the airport, driving places, zoo? How is the queue at Disney causing the problem?

Let me give you an example. My husband has IBS. his issues can come up in the queue at Disney or literally anywhere else. His issues could come up in the queue or could not, just like it could come up any of the number of places I mentioned above, hence why he would not be eligible for DAS.

 

[BrightMorningStar]

Part of the issue is, what do people do everywhere else in life? What do they do waiting for fireworks, at the airport, driving places, zoo? How is the queue at Disney causing the problem?

This!

I have mentioned this in other threads, my comment is not popular, but it is true. Disney, or any other company, is not required to make special accommodations beyond what the law requires under the ADA. Legally, they do not have to offer DAS to anybody. It is great that they do and I am grateful for it, but it is not a requirement on their part. In general, Disney disappoints people easily because they have always just given in, they bend over backwards to make guests happy and they are known for bowing to complaints. These changes came as a disappointment to many.

 

[lanejudy]

Legally, they do not have to offer DAS to anybody.

I see this posted a lot and it comes across as very dismissive so I want to clarify...

Disney absolutely DOES need to offer accommodations, but that accommodation is not required to be DAS. Not in it's current form, former form, GAC or however it has appeared in the past. It could be changed entirely, assuming whatever takes it's place is a reasonable accommodation for someone who cannot be in a queue for an extended period of time.

DAS was originally intended to be for waits greater than 20 minutes. If the posted standby was less, guests were supposedly directed to enter the queue. When DAS went digital, Return Times were issued regardless of the posted standby. I believe Disney is still using that ~15-20 minutes as the barometer, with the expectation the LL could take that long.

The DAS changes appear to have brought about considerably shorter LL waits at WDW in the past couple of months. That may be part of Disney's intent, to bring that down short enough that the standby queue starts moving more smoothly, thus allowing folks to wait standby who may have otherwise needed DAS because those LL's were 20+ minutes.

 

[theMoreDisneytheBetter]

@lanejudy - do you know what the minimum legal requirements are for accommodations for developmental-like disabilities at theme parks?

 

[lanejudy]

@lanejudy - do you know what the minimum legal requirements are for accommodations for developmental-like disabilities at theme parks?

It isn't spelled out in the ADA legislation and to my knowledge there hasn't been any legal ruling other than the GAC vs DAS case which declared DAS is a reasonable accommodation.

**I am not a lawyer, so this is a layman's understanding of the ADA as it pertains to theme parks.** I believe "reasonable" has a significant meaning on BOTH sides of the issue -- is the accommodation reasonable for the needs of the disabled individual, as well as is the accommodation reasonable for the business to provide without significantly impacting operations and the experience of the non-disabled guest. It is entirely possible that a reasonable accommodation might not be available. An example is wheelchair accessible ride vehicles not offered for all attractions. Transfer options are considered reasonable accommodations in such situations but may not meet the needs of a specific individual who cannot transfer from their chair - thus unfortunately there is no reasonable accommodation available to that individual at that attraction.

 

[nalababybear]

@lanejudy - do you know what the minimum legal requirements are for accommodations for developmental-like disabilities at theme parks?

We DO know from litigation that DAS is an appropriate level of accommodation for certain folk with ASD.

What else legally -- grey zone.

 

[Evita_W]

Part of the issue is, what do people do everywhere else in life? What do they do waiting for fireworks, at the airport, driving places, zoo? How is the queue at Disney causing the problem?

Waiting for Fireworks is different, if an issue arises, you can EASILY leave if needed and come back, not something that can be done in a queue, especially if you have a mobility device. An airport is again similarly easy. Driving places, you can stop as needed. A zoo is not confined to a queue either, they are completely different items. And all zoos I have ever been to have always accommodated those with disabilities in the few places where there are queues. You are trying to compare the rest of life to Disney when they are completely different things.

Additionally, there is a lot of stimuli in the queues that don’t exist in the other places, the stimuli is there to distract the average guest; however, it can get overwhelming for those with disabilities and then there are queues like Haunted Mansion that have interactive elements that may make it where people (especially kids) run back and forth in parts of the queue rather than being in an orderly line and again that can cause issues for those with special needs.

 

[Evita_W]

It isn't spelled out in the ADA legislation and to my knowledge there hasn't been any legal ruling other than the GAC vs DAS case which declared DAS is a reasonable accommodation.

**I am not a lawyer, so this is a layman's understanding of the ADA as it pertains to theme parks.** I believe "reasonable" has a significant meaning on BOTH sides of the issue -- is the accommodation reasonable for the needs of the disabled individual, as well as is the accommodation reasonable for the business to provide without significantly impacting operations and the experience of the non-disabled guest. It is entirely possible that a reasonable accommodation might not be available. An example is wheelchair accessible ride vehicles not offered for all attractions. Transfer options are considered reasonable accommodations in such situations but may not meet the needs of a specific individual who cannot transfer from their chair - thus unfortunately there is no reasonable accommodation available to that individual at that attraction.

The question though becomes COULD there be a reasonable accommodation made at that attraction?

Let’s take Flights of Passage as an example, having seen lots of videos, I can confidently say that there could be a reasonable accommodation made, this could come in the form of alternative seating or an alternative viewing experience like Finding Nemo Submarines have at Disneyland. Would it be exactly the same experience? No, but would it be reasonable (and I mean that from both Disney’s and the Guest’s perspective) to offer it? Yes and I don’t understand why they didn’t do that, I mean we are talking about a ride based on a franchise that centers around a disabled person, it seems appropriate to me to make accommodations.

I will take that further to Navi River Journey, there is no reason that there couldn’t be an ADA boat that can at least accommodate a wheelchair/ECV and one other person. I could see due to weight issues maybe not being able to accommodate more in the same boat than that, but again, would be perfectly reasonable accommodations.

Tron, it would have been perfectly reasonable for the queue to have been designed to allow ECVs into the queue, but Disney chose not to. I mean there is no reason that they couldn’t have adjusted the queue design to allow for this.

At Disneyland, Mickey and Minnie’s Runaway Railway has a major issue in that during an evacuation, the doors they need to take you through are not wide enough for their wheelchairs, so the disabled person must stand up walk through the door way and sit back down at every doorway. And this attraction was built from scratch, Disney knows the width of their own wheelchairs which they use for this and yet this was still not properly designed with accommodations in mind. And keep in mind the doorways only need to be about an inch wider and they easily have 6” (after accounting for studs and such) on either side of all of the door ways we went through that could have been used.

I think these are the types of things we see that aren’t being done and we are saying they can and should be.

This also means there needs to be more flexibility in how to address individual’s needs, for example, someone who says they have sun sensitivity should be able to get a DAS or something like it that is only valid for attractions where that would be an issue (assuming they don’t have other issues that need accommodation of course). Again, this would be a reasonable way to handle this and make it where they don’t have to explain the issue at every attraction, they will already know which attractions that will be an issue for and which it won’t. Many other theme parks have their equivalents of a DAS setup this way, they ask what the issue is and then make the passes only valid for those attractions where the issue could be a problem. This creates a reasonable balance of operational concerns and meeting the guest’s needs.

Disney has been doing a lot to show us that they don’t really respect the disable community as of late and to not only not be inclusive of the disabled community, but to actively try to exclude them in many cases.

 

[lanejudy]

The question though becomes COULD there be a reasonable accommodation made at that attraction?

Possible, but since I am not a mechanical engineer or any such expert on designing rides I have to trust the Disney folks. Just the way I trust my electrician to wire my house correctly or the contractor to build my porch safely.

If you feel differently you are welcome to raise the issue through legal channels.

 

[theMoreDisneytheBetter]

We DO know from litigation that DAS is an appropriate level of accommodation for certain folk with ASD.

What else legally -- grey zone.

Yeah. I guess my question is how far above the minimum is current DAS. Ie is there any requirement to have an alternate place to wait, or could everyone be forced into an AQR situation. I’m curious more than anything else.

 

[ShaneDJ]

...someone who says they have sun sensitivity should be able to get a DAS

Disney has determined that "sun sensitivity" does not qualify to get DAS.

You could use an umbrella.

 

[jennab]

Waiting for Fireworks is different, if an issue arises, you can EASILY leave if needed and come back, not something that can be done in a queue, especially if you have a mobility device. An airport is again similarly easy. Driving places, you can stop as needed. A zoo is not confined to a queue either, they are completely different items. And all zoos I have ever been to have always accommodated those with disabilities in the few places where there are queues. You are trying to compare the rest of life to Disney when they are completely different things.

Not really. Many people who can’t deal with lines (autism, AFHD, severe anxiety, PTSD) also can’t deal with waiting for a parade or standing in a spot surrounded by a bunch of strangers pushing at them during the fireworks. It’s definitely not easy to just leave when you are surrounded by people in these situations.

The airport likes for check-in, bags, TSA, come to mind. The car example was for my husbands IBS. He could be driving in the middle of traffic and have to go to the bathroom. These are legit every day issues some people have to deal with. Many manage in their every day life and can also manage at Disney. They may need some sort of accommodation, but it may not need to be DAS. Like being able to sit outside while your parent waits in line for you. Or honestly, as a family who knows we have multiple issues I buy what I need to in order to ensure we can have a less stressful time (pre-check for TSA, G+ and whatever the new one is most likely).

 

[OurBigTrip]

Disney has determined that "sun sensitivity" does not qualify to get DAS.

You could use an umbrella.

Yep. The sun is all over the park, so how do people get from attraction to attraction totally out of the sun? My guess is that they don't.