The direct points shaming factor here

[WallE71]

I also have no doubt that people buy direct to not have to hassle with resale. We are just now going through estoppel and if I had the extra money, I would have paid more to not go through that. I also have to think DVD took our first ROFR to get us to come back to buying direct. We had a timeline that we will not meet now to get what we want on our first trip. We started at end of May with looking for what we want and are still not done. Much easier to just tell Disney what you want.

 

[zavandor]

At first it may seem that in this board there is a lot of negativity about DVC. However guides have the job to make the system appear as all pixy dust and magic, someone has to ground people to reality
If someone comes here and say they've purchased retail because their guide told them otherwise they cannot use the points for cruising, I think it's correct to point out the real value of that option.
If someone posts here they've just purchased direct but they're not sure about it, it is just right to advice them they can still cancel, spend some time learning the system and then decide later if they still want to purchase direct.
I wouldn't call this shaming, just willingness to help.

When someone just post they've purchased direct and they are happy, the most common reply is "welcome home".

 

[Cyberc1978]

If someone posts here they've just purchased direct but they're not sure about it, it is just right to advice them they can still cancel, spend some time learning the system and then decide later if they still want to purchase direct.
I wouldn't call this shaming, just willingness to help.

When someone just post they've purchased direct and they are happy, the most common reply is "welcome home".

IMHO if someone has bought direct/resale and are not sure about the sale, the advice should always be to cancel and learn some more about the system.

OTOH if the same persons are happy with their purchase the answer should be " Welcome home" or similar.

If I bought direct because I didn't know about resale, there is no wrong in advising me to cancel and buy a similar contract resale. Then I can decide if I want to save the extra $$$, if I still have the option to cancel that is.

If I had known about the resale marked when I bought my first timeshare I would had cancelled my contract and bought the same resale. The end result had been the same except that I had saved a suitcase full of $$

 

[disneynutz]

IMO it's not shaming, it educating. Most of us have made the same errors, the kool-aid and spent money that we didn't have to.

Bill

 

[Ben E N]

This shaming factor is not just a disboards thing. I don't know about you all, but I'm on forums about many different subjects. This shaming happens everywhere. On every forum there is a group of 20-30 regulars who have answered the same questions a thousand times, and if you come in new and say something not researched for hours, days or months first, you'll get slammed. It has to do with being anonymous and not having a vested interest in real social interaction with someone you'll never know. If this was in person, and someone bought a new car and brought it up at work, the first response would not be... A) did you overpay, B) you should have saved by researching for 6 months first, and C) return it now and buy (whatever) instead or you've made a bad financial decision and wasted money, sucks to be you. Those conversations do not happen because it would kill any future social interaction, and you have/want to interact with them. People would be like oh that's awesome, tell me about the features, what you love, how does it drive, how excited were your kids, etc. It's understood that they made a financial decision that they were comfortable with. You would think the same thing would happen in a forum about vacations... someone buys direct, likes their purchase, is happy with their purchase, comes out to the forums to share their enjoyment of being in the club, and should find high fives and stories about something we all love, but instead they're told some nasty stuff and they leave.

That is very true about communication on the internet, but it can also be seen as as good thing. I personally appreciate the bluntness of an internet forum, as long as talk remains respectful and positions are defended using data. I have not seen many personal insults thrown around on this board. The worst I have gotten was "You must not be very good at math." (I will admit that one hurt a bit), much more tame than what I have unfortunately seen elsewhere.
When I want people to be nice to me, I let people who I personally know about my decision. I actually enjoyed speaking with them about my decision to buy into DVC, as they had some much more pressing questions for me than strangers on the internet would have had.

 

[Dean]

This shaming factor is not just a disboards thing. I don't know about you all, but I'm on forums about many different subjects. This shaming happens everywhere. On every forum there is a group of 20-30 regulars who have answered the same questions a thousand times, and if you come in new and say something not researched for hours, days or months first, you'll get slammed. It has to do with being anonymous and not having a vested interest in real social interaction with someone you'll never know. If this was in person, and someone bought a new car and brought it up at work, the first response would not be... A) did you overpay, B) you should have saved by researching for 6 months first, and C) return it now and buy (whatever) instead or you've made a bad financial decision and wasted money, sucks to be you. Those conversations do not happen because it would kill any future social interaction, and you have/want to interact with them. People would be like oh that's awesome, tell me about the features, what you love, how does it drive, how excited were your kids, etc. It's understood that they made a financial decision that they were comfortable with. You would think the same thing would happen in a forum about vacations... someone buys direct, likes their purchase, is happy with their purchase, comes out to the forums to share their enjoyment of being in the club, and should find high fives and stories about something we all love, but instead they're told some nasty stuff and they leave.

Several points. First that someone feels they made a good choice and are comfortable with it, doesn't make it a good choice. There are common bad choices like car leases, etc. The last recession was, in part, a direct consequence of a large group of people make poor purchase choices and the green of those they were purchasing from. I think it's rare for someone to get advice here that's not related to the subject of the OP, that it's not what they wanted to hear is irrelevant IMO. I can't speak for others but I can for myself. My posts that you might perceive as negative are intended to be help one (including others reading) to think about what they're doing and make the best choices possible. In large part it's like going to 12 step meeting and not wanting to discuss an addiction. And I would disagree about the unreasonableness of having face to face conversation but I would agree that it depends on the context and method it's done. IMO the other side is more of a concern, people don't want to hear the word no or to delay gratification, you see if everywhere which all type of studios in all types of areas to back it up. And lastly, if I were to say (hypothetically) that all people who drive a certain color car (let's say red) made a poor choice and you drive a red car, I did not attack you, I simply stated a principle. Life's too short, to be unclear is to be unkind.

 

[Bing Showei]

Several points. First that someone feels they made a good choice and are comfortable with it, doesn't make it a good choice. There are common bad choices like car leases, etc. The last recession was, in part, a direct consequence of a large group of people make poor purchase choices and the green of those they were purchasing from. I think it's rare for someone to get advice here that's not related to the subject of the OP, that it's not what they wanted to hear is irrelevant IMO. I can't speak for others but I can for myself. My posts that you might perceive as negative are intended to be help one (including others reading) to think about what they're doing and make the best choices possible. In large part it's like going to 12 step meeting and not wanting to discuss an addiction. And I would disagree about the unreasonableness of having face to face conversation but I would agree that it depends on the context and method it's done. IMO the other side is more of a concern, people don't want to hear the word no or to delay gratification, you see if everywhere which all type of studios in all types of areas to back it up. And lastly, if I were to say (hypothetically) that all people who drive a certain color car (let's say red) made a poor choice and you drive a red car, I did not attack you, I simply stated a principle. Life's too short, to be unclear is to be unkind.

I would second what Dean wrote. In the time I spent lurking these forums before I made my timeshare purchase decision, I gained a lot from the very frank conversation people were having around the logic behind choices they were making. I think civility is paramount, and I have yet to see corrosive or abusive posts to suggest this is lost on others, but I put little stock in comments made from people who need to be concerned about niceties over honesty.

 

[MrInfinity]

Several points. First that someone feels they made a good choice and are comfortable with it, doesn't make it a good choice. There are common bad choices like car leases, etc. The last recession was, in part, a direct consequence of a large group of people make poor purchase choices and the green of those they were purchasing from. I think it's rare for someone to get advice here that's not related to the subject of the OP, that it's not what they wanted to hear is irrelevant IMO. I can't speak for others but I can for myself. My posts that you might perceive as negative are intended to be help one (including others reading) to think about what they're doing and make the best choices possible. And I would disagree about the unreasonableness of having face to face conversation but I would agree that it depends on the context and method it's done. IMO the other side is more of a concern, people don't want to hear the word no or to delay gratification, you see if everywhere which all type of studios in all types of areas to back it up.

I think your advice is objective. However, you do apply your opinions to others. Like car leases. You say they are universally a bad choice. But they can be good. I'm not a fan, but I wouldn't say car leases are all around bad. If someone said they leased a car, the response on a forum might be "that was stupid you'll overpay" but the response in person might be "oh cool, how do you like it?" Totally different. That's the internet syndrome at work.

And the gratification thing. Let's face it... Vacationing is all about aloof, unnecessary spending on self-gratification. There are ways to get everything cheaper in life. We just bought an appliance... Looked around for every deal possible until we got the max possible off. Most would just buy it -- should they be shamed if they go to a forum and talk about how much they love it? Whether that was time well spent would depend on your income and how busy you are, among other things. The OP in that other thread said his time was more valuable. At that point the discussion is over. No one can attest to his value of his time better than him, so it was financially a good buy.

What people tend to do is assume that everyone else values the same thing... optimizing. However most people really don't. To tell people they made a bad purchase for not optimizing in the way you would have, perhaps misses the mark because they weren't trying to -- they're just enjoying their vacation, and bought in, at a price they were good with. I bet a lot of people who pay more for their trips get more enjoyment out of them than some folks who perfectly optimize. That's what matters. When someone comes out here happy about their purchase and excited to go, the response will still be to dig in and see if they overpaid, since that is the voyeurism that the internet thrives on. Did they overpay, and can I point out how I could have done better. You see it all the time.

Another example is financing. You tend to be of the belief that one should never finance a DVC purchase. I agree in principle, but still if someone wanted to finance it, and they worked it out so it works for them, then who am I to say they are making a bad decision? It's their money, and they want the vacations. I would welcome them to the club.

Another example is the dining plan. You can't enter the dining plan forum and talk about how you loved it and it was great without a flood of regulars ripping into you about how you overpaid. (shrug) It's unnecessary to be that way.

 

[Toreby]

The OP in that other thread said his time was more valuable. At that point the discussion is over. No one can attest to his value of his time better than him, so it was financially a good buy.

Yeah except that's not all the OP said. He also listed several other reasons, none of them very good any which way you slice it. If someone has the money to buy direct, is aware of resale but don't want to deal with it, then that's is certainly entirely up to them and I'd hope people here just say 'Welcome Home", but again, the OP's initial post in the other thread was not as simple as you just indicated.

 

[jodifla]

Several points. First that someone feels they made a good choice and are comfortable with it, doesn't make it a good choice. There are common bad choices like car leases, etc. The last recession was, in part, a direct consequence of a large group of people make poor purchase choices and the green of those they were purchasing from. I think it's rare for someone to get advice here that's not related to the subject of the OP, that it's not what they wanted to hear is irrelevant IMO. I can't speak for others but I can for myself. My posts that you might perceive as negative are intended to be help one (including others reading) to think about what they're doing and make the best choices possible. In large part it's like going to 12 step meeting and not wanting to discuss an addiction. And I would disagree about the unreasonableness of having face to face conversation but I would agree that it depends on the context and method it's done. IMO the other side is more of a concern, people don't want to hear the word no or to delay gratification, you see if everywhere which all type of studios in all types of areas to back it up. And lastly, if I were to say (hypothetically) that all people who drive a certain color car (let's say red) made a poor choice and you drive a red car, I did not attack you, I simply stated a principle. Life's too short, to be unclear is to be unkind.

Your standard seems to be "did I save every last dime I could have?" And sometimes, that's a lesser factor for people. Or you are making a tradeoff. We financed because we wanted points right away, before they went up any higher. And we used those points to go on the trips we were going on anyway. The second contract, I was able to pay cash and did.

Look at all the people who say they looked in 1995 but didn't buy until 2010. Even if they paid cash, they paid a lot more than me with my financing.

 

[mustinjourney]

The worst I have gotten was "You must not be very good at math." (I will admit that one hurt a bit)

Wait, so he thought you were the one that sucked at math? Here I was thinking it was me that he thought sucked.

 

[Ben E N]

Wait, so he thought you were the one that sucked at math? Here I was thinking it was me that he thought sucked.

You too, I tried to jump in an help justify why somebody would pay full price and got the same "shaming" treatment. As mentioned, though, that's the one time I have seen a 'mean' comment in months of following and posting on these boards.
And, in response to the math comment, the renting vs. paying full price equation looks like it will be changing in favor of paying full price rather quickly once rental prices go up (Following an increase in OTU point price and extra adult occupancy rates at Disney resorts)

 

[Dean]

I think your advice is objective. However, you do apply your opinions to others. Like car leases. You say they are universally a bad choice. But they can be good. I'm not a fan, but I wouldn't say car leases are all around bad. If someone said they leased a car, the response on a forum might be "that was stupid you'll overpay" but the response in person might be "oh cool, how do you like it?" Totally different. That's the internet syndrome at work.

And the gratification thing. Let's face it... Vacationing is all about aloof, unnecessary spending on self-gratification. There are ways to get everything cheaper in life. We just bought an appliance... Looked around for every deal possible until we got the max possible off. Most would just buy it -- should they be shamed if they go to a forum and talk about how much they love it? Whether that was time well spent would depend on your income and how busy you are, among other things. The OP in that other thread said his time was more valuable. At that point the discussion is over. No one can attest to his value of his time better than him, so it was financially a good buy.

What people tend to do is assume that everyone else values the same thing... optimizing. However most people really don't. To tell people they made a bad purchase for not optimizing in the way you would have, perhaps misses the mark because they weren't trying to -- they're just enjoying their vacation, and bought in, at a price they were good with. I bet a lot of people who pay more for their trips get more enjoyment out of them than some folks who perfectly optimize. That's what matters. When someone comes out here happy about their purchase and excited to go, the response will still be to dig in and see if they overpaid, since that is the voyeurism that the internet thrives on. Did they overpay, and can I point out how I could have done better. You see it all the time.

Another example is financing. You tend to be of the belief that one should never finance a DVC purchase. I agree in principle, but still if someone wanted to finance it, and they worked it out so it works for them, then who am I to say they are making a bad decision? It's their money, and they want the vacations. I would welcome them to the club.

Another example is the dining plan. You can't enter the dining plan forum and talk about how you loved it and it was great without a flood of regulars ripping into you about how you overpaid. (shrug) It's unnecessary to be that way.

I don't believe I apply my opinion to others unless they ask but what I do is give principles that might apply, which is what I stated above. It's called "Best Practices" in the business world. That's where we differ, car leases are always bad, we can discuss why if it's important to you. It's about having the information, anyone can make their own decision. IMO trying to be too broad and "nice" is harmful to those reading. I'm not a believe in the idea that one survived a bad choice (car lease, financing luxury items, etc) as a valid justification for that choice. We've all made bad choices but the less we make and the less bad they are, the better off we'll be. It's a lot like sports or grades, there are winners and losers, giving everyone a trophy just for participating is a bad choice and probably sums up my approach in general to these issues. One should be fair and honest but that doesn't necessarily mean agreeing. IMO the principles at work in the areas in question are rather black and white, no way around it. It's all about perception as well. Let's go back a few years to SSR early on. If one said SSR had a dramatic and additive affect on DVC in a way negative to many by making the 7 months window A LOT more difficult, it was accurate but some perceived it as bashing SSR. It's a great resort but that didn't change the reality of the situation and it's affect, two separate issues that some couldn't separate. If I can be kryptonite to the emotional choices and get people to make more intellectual choices, mission accomplished. You're welcome to put me on ignore but I don't think my posting style has changed much in the 20 years I've been here.

 

[Dean]

Your standard seems to be "did I save every last dime I could have?" And sometimes, that's a lesser factor for people. Or you are making a tradeoff. We financed because we wanted points right away, before they went up any higher. And we used those points to go on the trips we were going on anyway. The second contract, I was able to pay cash and did.

Look at all the people who say they looked in 1995 but didn't buy until 2010. Even if they paid cash, they paid a lot more than me with my financing.

But it's important to know the information. There was a time when I gave exceptions to financing related to price increases or money coming in but I now feel that was wrong. If you're making a tradeoff it's a tradeoff. My philosophy would apply to buying too early or too late. If one couldn't buy for 15 years because of the financing issue they either couldn't afford it or it wasn't important to them (or both) though generally there are other reasons. One can always justify buying consumer items but they are just that, attempts at justification for luxury items. We've all done it but let's admit it for what it is.

 

[pineapplepalms]

My perspective as someone who's been researching and reading these boards for months to help me decide how we want to make our DVC purchases...

While I see an occasional harsh comment directed towards those who buy direct, by and large I have found the advice and information provided by those on here to be invaluable for my research. As with anything, I take in information and ultimately make my own decisions, and as long as my family and I are comfortable with them, it doesn't really matter if someone else thinks we shouldn't have done something a certain way since it is our family, our money, our vacation, etc. so I haven't personally taken offense to anything.

We've decided to buy both direct and resale. Direct for CCV since we'd like to stay in the main building in December (with an occasional cabin or grand villa stay down the road) and we're taking advantage of a promotional offer. Then I'll take my time in finding suitable resale contract(s) at a lower cost that we can use to try out different DVC resorts. Our plan is to go 1-2x a year for at least a week at time, starting out in studios or 1BRs and moving on to 2BRs as our family grows. We're paying cash for direct and are looking forward to our DVC purchase (we've already spent so much on rooms at Deluxe resorts in the past several years, we really should have looked into it years ago!). The advice from others doesn't dampen our excitement, but just provides us with information so that we can go into the purchase informed and knowledgeable about what we're getting with our money. I'm big on planning and the availability threads have been illuminating in helping us decide that a combination of direct and resale will work out for us (the resale contract(s) will typically be used for Jan-Sep travel in 1BRs and up, and we're planning on buying where we wouldn't mind being "stuck").

I love the discussions on here because in my regular life, we don't know any DVC members and a lot of people just don't understand our love for Disney, so it's refreshing to come on here and read all the information and interaction. So thank you to those of you who have and continue to provide frank, helpful advice for new DVC buyers.

 

[jodifla]

But it's important to know the information. There was a time when I gave exceptions to financing related to price increases or money coming in but I now feel that was wrong. If you're making a tradeoff it's a tradeoff. My philosophy would apply to buying too early or too late. If one couldn't buy for 15 years because of the financing issue they either couldn't afford it or it wasn't important to them (or both) though generally there are other reasons. One can always justify buying consumer items but they are just that, attempts at justification for luxury items. We've all done it but let's admit it for what it is.

But again, what's the criteria? Why go through life without any luxury items just because it is someone else's standard that you should never finance those items? We had the cash savings to buy, but we don't take money out of savings unless it's for an emergency. So we financed, got our DVC right away, shifted the money we were using to to go to WDW hotels into paying off the loan, and let our savings stay put and grow.

Down the road, when we started a family and went to one of us working half-time, we were REALLY happy to have made this decision. By then our DVC was paid off, and we were able to vacation well above what we would have felt comfortable spending on hotel rooms. AND we were able to take friends and family with us.

For us, it just felt like win-win-win.

 

[Wakey]

Just on the car lease issue they can be very good financially. At least here in UK. My last one was a Mercedes CLS, $70000 to buy here, got it for $430 a month over 2 years, 2 payments down! It would have lost much more in depreciation. Currently got a BMW 335D , nearly fast as a Porsche 911 and it's a 'wagon' as you call them- $500 a month, 2 payments down. I used to buy cars, no more, anyway, sorry I digress but there is a point to my (true) post... I'm happy to argue points out with facts and figures when people offer opinions on public forums; Was I offended by Deans' comments which indicated leasing is not financially savvy ? No.

 

[MrInfinity]

I don't believe I apply my opinion to others unless they ask but what I do is give principles that might apply, which is what I stated above. It's called "Best Practices" in the business world. That's where we differ, car leases are always bad, we can discuss why if it's important to you. It's about having the information, anyone can make their own decision. IMO trying to be too broad and "nice" is harmful to those reading. I'm not a believe in the idea that one survived a bad choice (car lease, financing luxury items, etc) as a valid justification for that choice. We've all made bad choices but the less we make and the less bad they are, the better off we'll be. It's a lot like sports or grades, there are winners and losers, giving everyone a trophy just for participating is a bad choice and probably sums up my approach in general to these issues. One should be fair and honest but that doesn't necessarily mean agreeing. IMO the principles at work in the areas in question are rather black and white, no way around it. It's all about perception as well. Let's go back a few years to SSR early on. If one said SSR had a dramatic and additive affect on DVC in a way negative to many by making the 7 months window A LOT more difficult, it was accurate but some perceived it as bashing SSR. It's a great resort but that didn't change the reality of the situation and it's affect, two separate issues that some couldn't separate. If I can be kryptonite to the emotional choices and get people to make more intellectual choices, mission accomplished. You're welcome to put me on ignore but I don't think my posting style has changed much in the 20 years I've been here.

I don't really want to debate leases, no. Not on a Disney site. I think you do a lot for this site and you offer great advice typically. But I do think you present what you've figured out as the best path for you as the only best path for everyone. Choices are not that simple. "Timeshares are a fools buy" right? That's a pretty universally accepted generalization. Yet, we bought a timeshare, and it was a good value for us because we wanted this luxury item and we made it work within our means. "Car leases are always bad" you say? Well yeah, unless you can't afford to buy, or you need a nice car, or you simply want a new car every 3 years and you drive light miles. Leasing can be a good option. "Only buy resale" is not a valid generalization because it is not universally applicable. You know very well the # of contracts bought direct dwarfs the # of contracts available resale, so to suggest anyone is foolish for not buying resale is a farce. Only the first few direct buyers could buy resale, after which the resale contracts would dry up or elevate to the price of direct. The only thing that makes buying resale a bargain is that relatively few people do it and it has several disadvantages that keep downward pressure on the price. Trying to be too nice is one thing, but the whole point of this thread is that on the internet, people are often the opposite of too nice. Protected by the shroud of anonymity, some feel empowered to be over-the-top negative and approach conversations in ways they would not if they knew or had to interact with the person they are talking to. The shaming (which this thread is about) is unnecessary -- but happens on all forums.

 

[kboo]

I don't really want to debate leases, no. Not on a Disney site. I think you do a lot for this site and you offer great advice typically. But I do think you present what you've figured out as the best path for you as the only best path for everyone. Choices are not that simple. "Timeshares are a fools buy" right? That's a pretty universally accepted generalization. Yet, we bought a timeshare, and it was a good value for us because we wanted this luxury item and we made it work within our means. "Car leases are always bad" you say? Well yeah, unless you can't afford to buy, or you need a nice car, or you simply want a new car every 3 years and you drive light miles. Leasing can be a good option. "Only buy resale" is not a valid generalization because it is not universally applicable. You know very well the # of contracts bought direct dwarfs the # of contracts available resale, so to suggest anyone is foolish for not buying resale is a farce. Only the first few direct buyers could buy resale, after which the resale contracts would dry up or elevate to the price of direct. The only thing that makes buying resale a bargain is that relatively few people do it. Trying to be too nice is one thing, but the whole point of this thread is that on the internet, people are often the opposite of too nice. Protected by the shroud of anonymity, some feel empowered to be over-the-top negative and approach conversations in ways they would not if they knew or had to interact with the person they are talking to. The shaming (which this thread is about) is unnecessary.

I don't understand the bolded language...

One difference - I've been on internet forums that were primarily support forums and others that were advice based (Dis and some travel related ones). @pineapplepalms took the words right out of my fingertips. The "Purchasing DVC" board is primarily advice based, and gives so much better advice than the DVC groups on FB. And the group here is generally quite cordial and full of great information. There is no way we would have bought DVC (either direct or resale) without the great advice here. My parents have owned various RCI and other timeshares over the last 40 years. I grew up with them, staying in them, and seeing up front the difficulties with owning them. We ultimately decided to let the timeshare company take back one of them because my mom hadn't paid maintenance fees on it for a while (she has dementia), and it would have cost more for us to pay the back fees and sell it than to just let it go. My first hand experience over 40 years led me to decide that for my style of vacationing, a timeshare of any kind probably didn't make sense, and only with little kids going to WDW frequently does DVC make sense. And even then, in 10 years we may not be going that often. The difference is that most likely in 10 years we could sell our contract fairly readily for a decent price.

By the way, @Dean never used the words "Timeshares are a fools buy." Also, there is lots of discussion here on when/where/at what price point does buying direct actually make sense. If I loved Poly, I might consider it now. (We've never stayed there).

 

[MrInfinity]

I don't understand the bolded language...

It's just supply and demand. There are only so many resale contracts out there, and it's hard to find one that you can bid and get at this time. If everyone who bought direct were to buy resale instead, buying resale would not be an option because they'd be bought up in a matter of days. Point is you can't generalize that "everyone who bought direct would save by buying resale" because the price of resale would rise until they were no longer a savings. That is only valid as long as most people are buying direct.

And the group here is generally quite cordial and full of great information.

Sure. Generally. Yet, this thread exists...