The demise of unrestricted resorts, by year.

[hhisc16]

In order to do that they’d need to issue new deeds to owners to cluster in the same units.

The way the trust is written, inventory has to be declared and it appears that DVD can’t add units that they don’t fully own

Now, not saying they can’t try to do that, but I don’t think they can force someone to sign a new deed to a new unit.

All units that go back to DVD will still be part of OKW which means all open for booking. DVD would need to book with their points following the same rules.

sounds like OKW from 2042 to 2057 will be a very interesting dilemma that DVD put themselves in!

 

[Sandisw]

sounds like OKW from 2042 to 2057 will be a very interesting dilemma that DVD put themselves in!

Yes and it’s why I would be shocked to see them offer extensions to the others.

If the trust becomes a thing, they can let things expire, add the units to the trust in segments and allow them to be accessible in some way to other trust owners or DVC owners while they reinvent.

There are a lot of options to not end up with all this empty inventory.

 

[Tatebeck]

Yes and it’s why I would be shocked to see them offer extensions to the others.

If the trust becomes a thing, they can let things expire, add the units to the trust in segments and allow them to be accessible in some way to other trust owners or DVC owners while they reinvent.

There are a lot of options to not end up with all this empty inventory.

I don't think they would have as much of a problem if they are smart when doing any other possible extensions. They could rewrite the contracts in 2042 instead of extending the current contract as is with the same unit. Couldn't they just write in the extension contract that the current contract expires, but you are guaranteed a new prepaid contract with the same amount of points, but that it may be in a different unit than your current deed? Then they would be able to rewrite the contracts in 2042 for just those who choose to extend into new consolidated units, then they can do what they wish with the 100% Disney owned units left over from those who didn't extend?

With resorts like BCV or BWV I think a lot of members would extend, and even if they had 15 year contracts left over they could clear them out with a firesale pretty easily with those locations.

But I don't think they will, because they would rather refurb/rebuild and sell whole new 50 year contracts with much higher point charts instead of extending the low point charts they have now and selling those 15 year contracts for far less money

 

[Sandisw]

I don't think they would have as much of a problem if they are smart when doing any other possible extensions. They could rewrite the contracts in 2042 instead of extending the current contract as is with the same unit. Couldn't they just write in the extension contract that the current contract expires, but you are guaranteed a new prepaid contract with the same amount of points, but that it may be in a different unit than your current deed? Then they would be able to rewrite the contracts in 2042 for just those who choose to extend into new consolidated units, then they can do what they wish with the 100% Disney owned units left over from those who didn't extend?

With resorts like BCV or BWV I think a lot of members would extend, and even if they had 15 year contracts left over they could clear them out with a firesale pretty easily with those locations.

But I don't think they will, because they would rather refurb/rebuild and sell whole new 50 year contracts with much higher point charts instead of extending the low point charts they have now and selling those 15 year contracts for far less money

The contracts are tied to a ground lease. That will either expire or it can be extended.

All of the units that are declared already into the association would be subject to that ground lease.

So, that is all of the 2042 inventory (forget OKW right now).

If they let the ground lease expire, there is no more association and my understanding is DVDs would be required to create a new one, which the law requires to be a certain number of years.

To extend it, then everyone is default extended. And, if extended, you are also extending the points too…which means same points charts.

You can’t let the current association end but keep it at the same time. Which is why it would make more sense to just roll things into a trust model which gives them a lot more options for what to do with those units while they renovate.

 

[Tatebeck]

The contracts are tied to a ground lease. That will either expire or it can be extended.

All of the units that are declared already into the association would be subject to that ground lease.

So, that is all of the 2042 inventory (forget OKW right now).

If they let the ground lease expire, there is no more association and my understanding is DVDs would be required to create a new one, which the law requires to be a certain number of years.

To extend it, then everyone is default extended. And, if extended, you are also extending the points too…which means same points charts.

You can’t let the current association end but keep it at the same time. Which is why it would make more sense to just roll things into a trust model which gives them a lot more options for what to do with those units while they renovate.

I'm not saying let the association end. Extend the association. Then write in the extension contracts with members that anyone who buys the extension gets their same number of points extended but that the unit they belong to may be swapped for a different one.

So once extended and 2042 comes, if 50% of members extended instead of most units having around 50% of their points owned by member and around 50% by Disney, they may be able to consolidate it so that members own 100% of half of the resort and the other units are now 100% owned by Disney again and they can resell them or then add them to the Trust etc.

 

[VGCgroupie]

That's probably one of the reasons that I never really want to stay at OKW or SSR. We never rent a car if we don't have to. I hate driving in cities I am not familiar with and A $50 quick lyft from the airport and back is all we need if we are just going to Disney. One more if we go to universal for a few days. So the idea of a resort with no park access besides busses and with an internal bus route bigger than AKV with just the 2 stops really seems like a huge drag for me.

I will have to disagree with the "no pixie dust in transportation" though. Walking to a Disney park? Amazing in so many ways. A boat ride, monorail ride, or skyliner ride? Whimsical and different with usually great views (depending on what side of the skyliner you look lol). And they just seem like the wait times are shorter than busses for the boats and skyliner after using all the methods various times. Maybe that is not actually 100% true for the wait times but that is always how it feels to me.

I don't have any problems with the busses once getting on usually, they are fine, but the wait times seem longer and the other methods just seem to have some more "pixie dust" in your words compared to busses. Thinking back on my last few trips, the majority of the worst bits that stick out were waiting what seemed like forever for busses. So the other methods definitely feel more magical to me.

So I will likely avoid OKW and SSR unless something crazy with availability happens and I forget to book a room, or I want to say that I have stayed at ALL of the DVC locations someday. If I had to choose one, SSR seems like the better choice to me as well, with a bit better theming and being closer to Disney Springs.

But OKW just gives me "going to see my grandparents in a retirement village" vibes and not Disney "magic". But that is subjective I know. I can go to a retirement village anywhere and ride the bus in any city near me, I'm not going to Disney to do that every time I want to go somewhere personally. But some may love it there, to each their own.

I also agree about the magic in transportation. For me much of the magic of staying on property at DLR is that I can walk within the Disney bubble.

We adore taking the Skyliner. The friendship boats were a very nice ride and we really liked it. I havent taken the monorail or ferry boats yet. I know I will like the other boats. I cant see me hating the monorail at WDW. I wont like it as much as the Skyliner I know that. The buses are a whole other story, they are 100% not for us.

 

[Sandisw]

I'm not saying let the association end. Extend the association. Then write in the extension contracts with members that anyone who buys the extension gets their same number of points extended but that the unit they belong to may be swapped for a different one.

So once extended and 2042 comes, if 50% of members extended instead of most units having around 50% of their points owned by member and around 50% by Disney, they may be able to consolidate it so that members own 100% of half of the resort and the other units are now 100% owned by Disney again and they can resell them or then add them to the Trust etc.

But that is the whole issue with OKW…an extension applies to everyone…whether they pay or not.

And they can’t ask people to pay for the extension until it legally happens and once that happens, all owners are.

Thst is why OKw owners have to sign a quit claim deed…because they technically have an extended contract and must either pay for it or sign away their right.

So, you can’t extended the ground lease and keep the association but then say some of the units are no longer part of it….youd need to remove them from the association before you extend the lease.

Because the units have been declared into it and if you amend the contract with the extension, it applies to it all.

Like I said, getting people to get a new unit might be possible but we don’t know…and I bet DVD doesn’t either…whether owners who have not done either won’t be able to fight to keep it without having paid.

Now, realistically, I doubt you’d have many owners taking on that fight…and by then, many may end to just quit claiming it back cause they want out.

That is why I don’t see it because there is no benefit to DVC when the trust allows them to do different things.

The could even make these part of the Disney collection and allow all direct points to still trade to them with new point charts while they renovate

Bacisllt, treat them like they do the current WDW resorts…my guess is you’d have plenty of DVC owners who would trade this way.

 

[Tatebeck]

But that is the whole issue with OKW…an extension applies to everyone…whether they pay or not.

And they can’t ask people to pay for the extension until it legally happens and once that happens, all owners are.

Thst is why OKw owners have to sign a quit claim deed…because they technically have an extended contract and must either pay for it or sign away their right.

So, you can’t extended the ground lease and keep the association but then say some of the units are no longer part of it….youd need to remove them from the association before you extend the lease.

Because the units have been declared into it and if you amend the contract with the extension, it applies to it all.

Like I said, getting people to get a new unit might be possible but we don’t know…and I bet DVD doesn’t either…whether owners who have not done either won’t be able to fight to keep it without having paid.

Now, realistically, I doubt you’d have many owners taking on that fight…and by then, many may end to just quit claiming it back cause they want out.

That is why I don’t see it because there is no benefit to DVC when the trust allows them to do different things.

The could even make these part of the Disney collection and allow all direct points to still trade to them with new point charts while they renovate

Bacisllt, treat them like they do the current WDW resorts…my guess is you’d have plenty of DVC owners who would trade this way.

I guess I just don't understand why they couldn't extend the association itself without automatically extending everyone's contracts. Doesn't every normal contract say in it that a member's ownership interest ENDS in 2042? So if they file paperwork extending the association itself, the association may not end until say 2057 but you have no rights to any points after 2042. Unless you buy the extension.

Did they mess up on the original contracts and just say that your ownership ends when the association ends. That would be a pretty big oopsie

 

[Sandisw]

I guess I just don't understand why they couldn't extend the association itself without automatically extending everyone's contracts. Doesn't every normal contract say in it that a member's ownership interest ENDS in 2042? So if they file paperwork extending the association itself, the association may not end until say 2057 but you have no rights to any points after 2042. Unless you buy the extension.

Did they mess up on the original contracts and just say that your ownership ends when the association ends. That would be a pretty big oopsie

The contracts end because the ground lease ends. That is what guides all of this.

Once the ground lease is over, the association ceases to exist. If the ground lease is extended, then the association continues.

Once it ends, the property reverts back to Disney. No more BWV or BCV association. They cease to exist.

So, you can only offer this if you extended the ground lease to keep the association going and if you do that, then the owners of that resort get to keep going!

If you go back to the actual language of what happened with OKW, DVD unilaterally extended it, told owners that they were now required to pay for the extension because the contract was extended.

If they didn’t want to pay, they could sign the quit claim deed, basically giving the last 15 years back to DVD for their ownership interest.

Owners who did neither were harassed some about it, even being asked to sign at check in…or something like that…and had to be told to stop.

That is also why when an original 2042 owner goes to sell, they sign the quit claim deed as part of it. And since they are selling, it’s no issue for them to sign it at that point.

As I said, no one knows what is going to happen and DVD might let it go as long as someone continues to pay dues, or locks them out from using it even without the quitclaim.

ETA: And that is one of the pluses of the trust. The units stay owned by DVD and owners get a RTU the units in their vacation plan until it ends. But , the units never expire.

 

[sethschroeder]

No resort is close to everything, and there is no pixie dust in transportation.

Which is why people choose between MK and Epcot resorts and even do split stays between the two areas.

Most people who aren't familiar with the geography of the resort seem to assume that Magic Kingdom is the "center of the World" (pun intended) which is why you hear things all the time like "Animal Kingdom Lodge is far from everything."

Those people visit MK more often than any other park is the reason. Essentially for every 5 park days the average person is going to AK a single time while they go to MK two times.

2024 Attendance:
MK - 17.7m, E - 11.9m, HS - 10.3m, AK - 8.7m

Same reason why people look at the Epcot area because that is another 2 days of a 5 park day trip.

 

[Tatebeck]

The contracts end because the ground lease ends. That is what guides all of this.

Once the ground lease is over, the association ceases to exist. If the ground lease is extended, then the association continues.

Once it ends, the property reverts back to Disney. No more BWV or BCV association. They cease to exist.

So, you can only offer this if you extended the ground lease to keep the association going and if you do that, then the owners of that resort get to keep going!

If you go back to the actual language of what happened with OKW, DVD unilaterally extended it, told owners that they were now required to pay for the extension because the contract was extended.

If they didn’t want to pay, they could sign the quit claim deed, basically giving the last 15 years back to DVD for their ownership interest.

Owners who did neither were harassed some about it, even being asked to sign at check in…or something like that…and had to be told to stop.

That is also why when an original 2042 owner goes to sell, they sign the quit claim deed as part of it. And since they are selling, it’s no issue for them to sign it at that point.

As I said, no one knows what is going to happen and DVD might let it go as long as someone continues to pay dues, or locks them out from using it even without the quitclaim.

I just still haven't seen anything that says if they do a different extension at a different resort that an association extension means a 100% member extension as well

 

[Sandisw]

I just still haven't seen anything that says if they do a different extension at a different resort that an association extension means a 100% member extension as well

You have to read the contract and how it is listed. I’ll try and find and post

 

[WinterSolider]

Those people visit MK more often than any other park is the reason. Essentially for every 5 park days the average person is going to AK a single time while they go to MK two times.

2024 Attendance:
MK - 17.7m, E - 11.9m, HS - 10.3m, AK - 8.7m

No.

The math doesn't work that way because there are four parks and AKL is closer to three of them, not just one.

Compared to Contemporary, Animal Kingdom Lodge is closer to Animal Kingdom AND Epcot AND Hollywood Studios.

So it's irrelevant that people go to Magic Kingdom more than they go to Animal Kingdom. They don't go to Magic Kingdom more than they go to (Animal Kingdom + Epcot + Hollywood Studios) combined.

 

[Sandisw]

Here is the information from Riviera that talks about the ground lease and ownwerhip interest which ties the two together. As you can see, the ground lease is declared as a common element and our ownership interest ends, unless extended. Once the ground lease ends, the resort does not exist.....since this applies to all owners, if the ground lease and contract are extended, it is extended for everyone.....basically, all owners at Riviera are under the same vacation plan, which means, any amendments to the plan apply to all.....

 

[matt and beth]

Being 17 years away for the 2042 resorts and being 70 years old at that time I doubt I will care very much. 2057? I’ll be 84 and super doubt I will even give two hoots about Disney by then.

 

[Brian Noble]

even do split stays between the two areas.

...which itself incurs inconvenience.

There is no single solves-all-problems solution. It's just part of the deal at the Vacation Kingdom of the World. Everyone has to make some compromises, and different people will weigh the options differently.

 

[VGCgroupie]

...which itself incurs inconvenience.

There is no single solves-all-problems solution. It's just part of the deal at the Vacation Kingdom of the World. Everyone has to make some compromises, and different people will weigh the options differently.

My husband hates split stays so much that he says he would rather just skip certain parks and make a whole different trip for them and we are a 4-5 hour flight from WDW

 

[Tatebeck]

Here is the information from Riviera that talks about the ground lease and ownwerhip interest which ties the two together. As you can see, the ground lease is declared as a common element and our ownership interest ends, unless extended. Once the ground lease ends, the resort does not exist.....since this applies to all owners, if the ground lease and contract are extended, it is extended for everyone.....basically, all owners at Riviera are under the same vacation plan, which means, any amendments to the plan apply to all.....

View attachment 960047

View attachment 960050

That's more of what I was looking for, yes. Though the wording isn't 100% solid. It depends on what "otherwise extended in accordance with the condominium documents " entails. Otherwise it says that the ownership interests expire in 2070, and then the ground lease will expire. But it doesn't quite spell out that the ownership expires because of the ground lease expiration. It says they will both expire in 2070 unless something is changed

 

[Girlstar30]

If in 18 years it's super hard to book everything or I can only stay at SSR then I will just sell it no matter the price.

I still saved thousands in comparison to buying direct and having to sell or not having to sell at all, i still got to stay at way more expensive places (pit, vgf) for nearly 20 years and it was still a great buy at $82 pp compared to Disney directs $215 pp and it served it's purpose in creating family memories for years to come. I do not worry.

 

[Sandisw]

That's more of what I was looking for, yes. Though the wording isn't 100% solid. It depends on what "otherwise extended in accordance with the condominium documents " entails. Otherwise it says that the ownership interests expire in 2070, and then the ground lease will expire. But it doesn't quite spell out that the ownership expires because of the ground lease expiration. It says they will both expire in 2070 unless something is changed

Correct…they can extend it…we know that because they did for OKW…but since all owners are in the same vacation plan, if they extend the lease or the vacation plan, which includes the ground lease, it applies to all the owners…as we own our interest as part of the same vacation plan.

One of the issues that was brought up with the OKW situation is that DVC extended without a vote of owners as material changes require that and some believed the move in itself may have been wrong.

I just don’t see anything that allows them to end the vacation plan…but keep it going at the same time…. ETA: Here is more info that explains further that the ground lease has an actual expiration and not that it only expires if the vacation plan does.