The Conservative - Liberal Debate Thread

[chobie]

I rest my case.

She CLEARLY stated that this person was a RELATIVE. But you are going to take the opinion of someone on a message board that you have never met? I too have a friend (in Canada) who's father died last year because he had to wait so long for his testing and procedures to be done. But by god, if someone here tells me that is not true, then I must be making it all up.

Ok then!

Kristine

Uh, I haven't met you , TC PLuto or anyone on these boards. So, I'm supposed to take the opinion of someone I have not met about a relative of theirs I have not met?


Again I never said anyone was making it up or lying. However, given a choice of opinions of people (none of whom I've met), then yes a thread on this board with many first-person opinions about their own health care gets more weight from me then a thread with people I have not met talking about other people I have not met.

 

[StrollPatrolMom]

I didn't say that Bush himself created the recession. I said his tax cuts didn't help the economy, especially now that we are heading into recession mode. Presidents don't "create" good or bad economies but their policies go a good long way in affecting the daily hum the economy has. And I apologize for ignoring Clinton. I didn't realize he automatically had to be brought up in every thread.

so even though the revenues to the federal government increased, and people had to pay less i ntaxes thus creating more disposable income for consumer spending...the tax cuts didn't "help"

 

[StrollPatrolMom]

But it was free!

And, if I'm not mistaken, they don't have complete care, just medical. They have to carry supplemental insurance for dental.

I think we should have ULI. Universal Life Insurance.

I think we should have UPC. Universal Peanutbutter Cups.

Those things are good.

The increased demand for production would create new jobs too, so sweet.

 

[wardfamily1]

I think we should have UPC. Universal Peanutbutter Cups.

Those things are good.

The increased demand for production would create new jobs too, so sweet.

I vote for UPC!

 

[dejr_8]

What people feel to realize is that UHC will include service rationing. Do people really want someone in DC deciding who receives a certain service?

The UHC crowd always screams when some under-insured (or non-insured) person is preventing from receiving a life-saving measure. If UHC is implemented those types of problem will not go away but in fact will increase in number - fewer people will be able to receive expensive services.

It will just be the Gov deciding as opposed to market forces or an insurance company executive.

Is that better? Does the Gov run ANY program efficiently?

 

[chobie]

What people feel to realize is that UHC will include service rationing. Do people really want someone in DC deciding who receives a certain service?

The UHC crowd always screams when some under-insured (or non-insured) person is preventing from receiving a life-saving measure. If UHC is implemented those types of problem will not go away but in fact will increase in number - fewer people will be able to receive expensive services.

It will just be the Gov deciding as opposed to market forces or an insurance company executive.

Is that better? Does the Gov run ANY program efficiently?

As opposed to the anti-UHC crowd screaming about rationing...

Ultimately I would prefer DOCTORS making decisions about what procedures patients get, but I would rather have the gov deciding then people who make a profit off of denying medical procedures to people. They only way insurance companies can make big profits is to deny people care.

 

[connorlevismom]

I don't doubt you.

The problem with using one example or two is that can you really use these to summarize an entire countries medical community?
I have 2 friends who live in Canada and who I talk to on a daily basis - they are more then happy with their medical coverage and the care they have received. One has given birth to 4 children - one born with serious birth defects that she was treated for and made a full recovery.
Does my example negate your's? Absolutely not.

In truth the Canadian health care system is not something I am fully educated on, and I find most Americans are not. Usually (like myself) they know someone, or know of someone. The system which is rather large to support an entire country is going to have it's flaws, I've never heard of it referred to being perfect. I think it is probably very much equal to our own health care - I can tell you I've always received quality care, but my aunt after her back surgery pratically died after receiving poor care. Or my cousin who was sent home with a baby with a serious heart condition the hospital didn't catch because they were booted out of the hospital after 24 hours and then had to be in the hospitals intensive care unit and have emergency heart surgery - on a 6 week old!

What scares me about our health care problem is that - 1) how one accident may cause a person may go bankrupt. The cost for care is so out of control because Dr's carry such high insurance coverage to protect themselves from being sued. That 2)Our health insurance industry is more concerned about their stock holders then they are about the people they cover. to me health care should not be about making profit. And 3) That because of the cost of practicing medicine many good doctors go into elective surgeries (plastic surger) instead of practicting other area sof medicine.

~Amanda

I understand you completely but here is where I have a problem. You tell me that I cannot use one or two examples to prove my case and in the same breath you turn around and use 2 examples to prove yours. This is where I have the issues. My one case is not an example of UHC as a whole but your two are?

Kristine

 

[eclectics]

so even though the revenues to the federal government increased, and people had to pay less i ntaxes thus creating more disposable income for consumer spending...the tax cuts didn't "help"

Simply quoting a campaign line doesn't neccessarily make it so. Every credible economist has us headed into a recession. If the tax cuts were working we would be headed in the opposite direction. Remember "trickle down"? A more logical approach would be to end the trillions of dollars we are spending on this war, for a start. You can tell George Bush his tax breaks for the richest Americans do not offset his "drunken sailor" spending habits.

 

[dejr_8]

As opposed to the anti-UHC crowd screaming about rationing...

Ultimately I would prefer DOCTORS making decisions about what procedures patients get, but I would rather have the gov deciding then people who make a profit off of denying medical procedures to people. They only way insurance companies can make big profits is to deny people care.

I'm not screaming about rationing. I'm stating it as a hidden fact of life if UHC is adopted. UHC supporters just don't want to admit that rationing WILL happen.

You want the doctors to make the decisions but under UHC it will be some appointed political hack in DC that will make the call. Yea-that will make me sleep good at night cause as we all know there is no corruption in government.

In 2006, the US spent $550 billion on the Military and $2100 Billion on healthcare. Your side always like to point out the overspending and wasteful spending that occurs in the Military. Do you actually think the Gov will do a better job of fiscal management when they have $2100 billion to play with????

 

[dejr_8]

Simply quoting a campaign line doesn't neccessarily make it so. Every credible economist has us headed into a recession. If the tax cuts were working we would be headed in the opposite direction. Remember "trickle down"? A more logical approach would be to end the trillions of dollars we are spending on this war, for a start. You can tell George Bush his tax breaks for the richest Americans do not offset his "drunken sailor" spending habits.

You're a broken record on this. Without tax cuts the recession may have happened years ago and could have been deeper. Your side will never get over the fact that total tax revenues actually go UP when the tax rate is cut. It goes UP because the economy is more productive and grows at a faster rate.

 

[Planogirl]

Tax revenues go up and we have a massive debt. President George spends money like a drunken shopaholic and yet his policies are good for the economy because it could have been worse.

Sigh...

 

[connorlevismom]

For those who don't think cutting spending will help anything, I just don't get that. Cutting spending and revemping wellfare and the like would do great things. You say that it is just not enough. Fine, it is not enough but why can't it be a start? Why do people poo poo the idea?

Kristine

 

[Chloe'sMom]

I understand you completely but here is where I have a problem. You tell me that I cannot use one or two examples to prove my case and in the same breath you turn around and use 2 examples to prove yours. This is where I have the issues. My one case is not an example of UHC as a whole but your two are?

Kristine

kristine - did you not see the part where I said my examples do not negate your eamples? In fact here is my quote:

Does my example negate your's? Absolutely not.

What I'm saying is that your and my examples being polar opposites does not accurately describe the entire system as a whole.

~Amanda

 

[connorlevismom]

kristine - did you not see the part where I said my examples do not negate your eamples? In fact here is my quote:



What I'm saying is that your and my examples being polar opposites does not accurately describe the entire system as a whole.

~Amanda

Got it. Thanks for clarifying that.

Kristine

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

I think we should have UPC. Universal Peanutbutter Cups.

Those things are good.

The increased demand for production would create new jobs too, so sweet.

Actually, I have those. I must share... There is a mentally challenged lady in my church who gives me four packs of Reese's EVERY. SINGLE. SUNDAY. Me being a diabetic I don't eat them (often), but I guess it's her sweet way of saying she appreciates me and DW. DW and I have both tried to tell her nicely how considerate she is but that she doesn't have to give us those every Sunday. She hasn't missed a week yet. You should see the stack of Reese's I have sitting on a shelf in my office. Every now and then I take them to my kids' school and share.

Funny thing, I used to like Reese's but now that I have UPC I'm sort of over them.

 

[yeartolate]

Tax revenues go up and we have a massive debt. President George spends money like a drunken shopaholic and yet his policies are good for the economy because it could have been worse.

Sigh...

No kidding.

We seem to care more about Iraq's infrastructure than our own.

Too bad he can't spend like a drunken sailor to advance clean renewable energy resources or to strength and repain our infrastructure.

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

You're a broken record on this. Without tax cuts the recession may have happened years ago and could have been deeper. Your side will never get over the fact that total tax revenues actually go UP when the tax rate is cut. It goes UP because the economy is more productive and grows at a faster rate.

Yep... I learned that way back under Reagan and the same thing is still true today. It seems so simple and basic (and tried and true) to me.

 

[connorlevismom]

Actually, I have those. I must share... There is a mentally challenged lady in my church who gives me four packs of Reese's EVERY. SINGLE. SUNDAY. Me being a diabetic I don't eat them (often), but I guess it's her sweet way of saying she appreciates me and DW. DW and I have both tried to tell her nicely how considerate she is but that she doesn't have to give us those every Sunday. She hasn't missed a week yet. You should see the stack of Reese's I have sitting on a shelf in my office. Every now and then I take them to my kids' school and share.

Funny thing, I used to like Reese's but now that I have UPC I'm sort of over them.

That is too cute! What made this woman start giving them to you in the first place?

Kristine

 

[Planogirl]

Yep... I learned that way back under Reagan and the same thing is still true today. It seems so simple and basic (and tried and true) to me.

To me assuming what might have happened is a bit too simplistic. I can only deal with what reality is, not what it could have been.

 

[yeartolate]

Here is what I find amusing and what I have noticed a lot.

If there is a conversation about the state of the USA and it's money issues, liberals know TONS of people who are just not making it and struggling everyday. When conservatives post that they and the people they know are doing well, we are liars or living in a fantasy world. Those people do not exist and it is only the people who the liberals "know" matter and are real.

If there is a conversation about UHC, the liberals talk all about it like it is the best thing ever. When conservatives pipe up about the fact that they know TONS of people who have UHC and hate it, we are liars. The waiting lists, and people dying from them do not exist and we are making these people up.

It seems that conservatives cannot win! Liberals can know lots of people when it suits their agenda but conservatives cannot know lots of people when it would go against what the libs believe is right.

If you can talk about people you know as a fact, then I should be able to as well.

Kristine

I am still waiting for someone to post "alot" of instances where liberals have called conservatives liars when they posted about their personal experiences.