The CMs were Worried About Alligator Problem

[theSurlyMermaid]

I do not care which flyover state you live in ( I live in one myself), unless you are ignorant, a hermit, or willfully uneducated, you know that alligators exist in the waters of Florida....Period.
I don't need a sign warning me of earthquakes in California, tornadoes in Colorado, Oklahoma, Texas, etc., floods and hurricanes (not to mention gators) in Texas, Louisianna, et al...Puhlease. Personal responsibility, no matter how tragic the consequences, play a significant part in how our lives play out.

Stop being a victim.

Why don't you say that to the parents' faces, internet tough guy.

 

[rteetz]

If this becomes another back and forth who should we blame thread it will be closed. The topic is CMs who might have told Disney to take actions.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Apologize in advance a bit off topic but I promise I'll get back on topic in a moment

Nope. Not a species that thrives in climates as dry as most of Kansas and Nebraska as far as I'm aware. Water moccasins are snakes I learned about as preferring to live in swampy areas. Kansas and Nebraska are very lacking in that type of terrain.

Rattlers, heck yes, but not lurking about in water or nearby waiting to strike. They prefer sunny bluffs with cracks they can crawl into if they get too warm.

Nope. Never saw a copperhead or heard of anyone who had. Did a bit of googling and found they inhabit only one county in Eastern KS and the far southeastern corner of NE.

Much less often than that, I expect, since rattlesnakes usually only strike if you happen onto one unexpectedly. That's why kids learn to make a lot of noise if they're exploring hilly places. Rattlers are much more eager to escape people than go after them.

ETA: I lived in Kansas nearly sixty years, just so you know I'm quite familiar with what it's like there. As a kid, used to wander around a creek about a quarter mile from my home, which is where I learned to walk noisily because there might well be rattlesnakes in the dry grassland above the creek.

Oh, and btw, never saw a rattlesnake or a fully developed tornado either one. Tornadoes aren't as common as people elsewhere think they must be.

With all due respect KS is a bit of wild place. Western KS is pretty darn different than Eastern KS. And honestly I don't know a huge amount about western KS other than it's windy and drier. (though we get pretty windy here too) I live in a suburb of KC on the KS side. There are copperheads galore in my neighborhood. There are approximately 39 species of snakes in KS alone.

As for tornados between the years of 1991-2015 KS was second for the number of tornados (as an average when you add up all the tornados between those years) with Texas being 1st..however as you lived in the northwestern part of KS you would be less likely to encounter tornados.

Okay. I stand corrected.

I grew up in far Western KS and only visited the eastern half now and then, mostly to go to ballgames at KU or K State.

Guess the wildlife info site I checked had it wrong about only Douglas Co. having a notable number of copperheads.

All I know is that they weren't a concern in the dry prairies of the western two-thirds of the state where I lived my entire life until eight years ago.

Douglas County is right next to me (I went to KU) but it is def. not the only place to have copperheads be prevalent.

Ah, I see on your profile you're in KC, Silock.

Yup, can believe there could be copperheads there. They like moist wooded areas, I remember learning. KC is lots more like here in St. Louis than like my little KS hometown.

Nothing much for woods west of Topeka. Way too dry for trees to survive unless along a creek or planted and watered by people such as in windbreaks or in towns.

That is a large reason why my neighborhood has copperhead snakes..it still has a lot of wooded parts including my backyard though they have been seen on the roads up by our HOA pool which is not by trees immediately.

I grew up in KS and we camped all over the Midwest. To your question about water moccasins (cottonmouths), rattlers and copperheads we have them everywhere even our local parks and backyards in Shawnee Mission. People are bitten by them every summer, especially by copperheads and we still partake in the parks and lakes in the region.
The consumer does bear some responsibility in educating themselves wherever they vacation. This is a tragedy but signage or fences are not going to stop people from not following the rules if they think it does not apply to them. We were taught as young children camping that "No Swimming" signs meant you do not get in the water no matter what and that included wading. We were never told why there was no swimming we just followed the rules...it could have been from an unhealthy algae bloom, bacteria or even because it was the birthing season for copperheads. Being from the Midwest is not an excuse for not following the rules.

I had a copperhead in my backyard, quite close to my house and without even knowing it I walked past it a couple of times. It was all coiled up and I didn't know it until I happened to look down. Lets just say that ever since then I thank my lucky stars that copperheads freeze by nature and typically only bite when felt very threatened (thank goodness I didn't step on it)..and I'm always watching the ground now.

I know not everyone knows that FL has gators but it is something akin to people thinking about KS and tornados (though obviously not all share that sentiment). This is just me personally if I saw no swimming I just wouldn't get in the water at all although I do have to admit if I knew there was water sports (which I didn't know a huge amount about the GF before now) I would be a bit confused whether or not being in the water itself was an issue.

You say Shawnee Mission?? I'm in Olathe but lived in Shawnee growing up among a few other cities in JoCo.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Ok back on topic here.

I have no doubt that CMs had encounters with hearing or seeing gators. The one thing that I hope is that each and every time they encountered them or a guest told them about an issue or that they knew people were feeding them at the bungalows that they would notify the appropriate person no matter how insignificant they thought the situation was. And I also hope that if they did tell the appropriate person that that person actually took it seriously.

Anytime big things like this happen we do have people who come out of the woodwork (and that's not necessarily in a bad way) who shed more light onto the situation but I do hope that it wasn't a "hold my tongue until now" situation for the CMs. I also hope that guests who have sighted gators inside WDW especially at MK and anywhere on WDW property told the appropriate party. I honestly had no idea people saw them at Tom Sawyer's Island (I have only been to Tom Sawyer's Island twice and hadn't seen them).

The feeding the bungalows thing..yeah I said it on another thread just wow on that part. I'm trying to figure out in my head how Disney is supposed to stop being from doing that. If they know of a gator in the area they can alert the appropriate agency to remove them (assuming they are large enough to be removed). A sign saying "hey it's illegal it's a really bad idea this leads to more issues" might help cut down on some and maybe even a majority but there will still be people who disregard the sign. Does anyone know if Disney ever did any action to those who they found out were feeding them?

 

[rteetz]

Does anyone know if Disney ever did any action to those who they found out were feeding them?

Im not sure. I'm guessing no. Unless you get them feeding them on film it's kind of hard to prove it. No feeding signs will help but definitely won't completely stop the problem.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Im not sure. I'm guessing no. Unless you get them feeding them on film it's kind of hard to prove it. No feeding signs will help but definitely won't completely stop the problem.

My guess was also no. I'm guessing it would end up in a "my word against yours" situation in which case I feel for the CMs who were put in that situation.

 

[rteetz]

My guess was also no. I'm guessing it would end up in a "my word against yours" situation in which case I feel for the CMs who were put in that situation.

Exactly which is why in order to prove it you would probably need it on film otherwise it's he said she said.

 

[wdwrule]

Exactly which is why in order to prove it you would probably need it on film otherwise it's he said she said.

Would it be possible to set out signs with fines for feeding alligators/wildlife and have security cameras? At least in main areas.....Splash Mt, Bungalows...

 

[beer dave]

Despite your rude comment, I'll reply.

Where is the rude? A bit of sarcasm, sure.... It seems you have been throwing that one around a bit lately-- Just because someone disagrees and challenges your view or source doesn't make them rude-- It's part of discussion. Sometimes slinging terms like "rude" is a tactic for debate used by a party who doesn't really have a firm basis for their argument or opinion, creating a bit of shock value or getting readers to "join their side" because they have been wronged, but really it lessens the degree in which it is received by anyone reading.

 

[beer dave]

It doesn't. If you had paid attention, you would have read the following: The statistics came from CNN. They were in a sidebar on one of the articles about the boy. Google it yourself.

Just pointing out that this is aggressive and demeaning.

 

[Happyinwonerland]

Would it be possible to set out signs with fines for feeding alligators/wildlife and have security cameras? At least in main areas.....Splash Mt, Bungalows...

Disney is not going to create bad blood by calling the cops on people who are paying $2000 per night for those bungalows. They will turn a blind eye and keep the cash flowing in.

 

[rteetz]

Would it be possible to set out signs with fines for feeding alligators/wildlife and have security cameras? At least in main areas.....Splash Mt, Bungalows...

It might be possible. I'm not sure on the logistics of it all.

 

[rteetz]

Disney is not going to create bad blood by calling the cops on people who are paying $2000 per night for those bungalows. They will turn a blind eye and keep the cash flowing in.

I'm also wondering if it's a privacy issue with guests in the bungalows.

 

[romitaz]

Would it be possible to set out signs with fines for feeding alligators/wildlife and have security cameras? At least in main areas.....Splash Mt, Bungalows...

One thing that I would do, if I had the authority, is place signs prominently in the bungalows and around the waterways warning that feeding alligators is illegal under Florida statute 372.667 and comes with a $500 fine and possible escorting from the parks. I bet many don't realize what they are doing when they feed wild animals. This may not stop all of it but I bet it will cut the instances way down. I would also float several rumors about several people actually getting hit with this fine. " I heard they caught and fined a whole family of four $500 each!" That kind of thing. Get the rumor mill working FOR them not against. Your mileage may vary.

 

[wdwrule]

Disney is not going to create bad blood by calling the cops on people who are paying $2000 per night for those bungalows. They will turn a blind eye and keep the cash flowing in.

I was thinking the same but hopefully not.

 

[JenLT]

I'm also wondering if it's a privacy issue with guests in the bungalows.

If it is something happening outside, there is no expectation of privacy. There is no excuse for Disney employees to turn away from a law being broken. At the very least they have an obligation to tell the people they are breaking the law. Apparently, it is a second degree misdemeanor punishable by up to 60 days in jail and/or a $500 fine. 2nd offense in 3 years equals up to a year in jail and/or $1000 fine. Put that on a sign, take appropriate actions, and let guests staying in places like the bungalow know that its illegal, you'll see a reduction in people doing it. If the police became involved in the worst of the situations, even if it became a he said, she said thing, I'm pretty sure the guest would not continue with the activity. By allowing guests to break the law, Disney increased the danger of the situation.

If Disney is turning a blind eye on illegal activity for money, that is deplorable. I can't see how anyone could defend that.

 

[LeeAndRobin]

The thing is, IT IS POSSIBLE THAT NO ONE WAS TO BLAME. Accidents happen. Even horrible ones. The risk was so negligible that it was not considered a real threat.

I've been refraining from commenting, but I just cannot agree that there are many things that happen to which "no one is to blame". Usually, there is more than one party that shares blame for a given "tragedy" or "accident". Just because the risk was negligible does not mean that no one is to blame. Most accidents in aviation have a negligible risk of happening, but once one happens, the NTSB works hard to figure out the root cause. In almost EVERY case, human error was a cause. A report is then written and disseminated, new procedures are adopted, and air travel gets a little bit safer, as long as those recommendations are followed. But the key point is that the investigators don't go around after a crash saying "what a terrible tragedy, but I guess no one is to blame". Even when the results of the investigation can lead to people being fired, companies being fined lots of money, or people having to live the rest of their lives knowing that their carelessness cost the lives of a number of innocent passengers.

Blame should *always* be assigned in any accident. You don't make things safer by trying to salve people's feelings, retain the magic "Disney bubble", or by pretending dangers do not exist. You make things safer by getting to the root of the problem and who is responsible, and correcting procedures so that it can't happen again.

People who have the philosophy that you shouldn't "play the blame game" are in my experience people who are lackadaisical and in fact to blame for a lot of things.

All that said, people on this board trying to assign blame is ridiculous. We are not a court of law, and we don't know all the facts involved. However, if you think no one is to blame for this incident, you really are living in Fantasy land

 

[romitaz]

I've been refraining from commenting, but I just cannot agree that there are many things that happen to which "no one is to blame". Usually, there is more than one party that shares blame for a given "tragedy" or "accident". Just because the risk was negligible does not mean that no one is to blame. Most accidents in aviation have a negligible risk of happening, but once one happens, the NTSB works hard to figure out the root cause. In almost EVERY case, human error was a cause. A report is then written and disseminated, new procedures are adopted, and air travel gets a little bit safer, as long as those recommendations are followed. But the key point is that the investigators don't go around after a crash saying "what a terrible tragedy, but I guess no one is to blame". Even when the results of the investigation can lead to people being fired, companies being fined lots of money, or people having to live the rest of their lives knowing that their carelessness cost the lives of a number of innocent passengers.

Blame should *always* be assigned in any accident. You don't make things safer by trying to salve people's feelings, retain the magic "Disney bubble", or by pretending dangers do not exist. You make things safer by getting to the root of the problem and who is responsible, and correcting procedures so that it can't happen again.

People who have the philosophy that you shouldn't "play the blame game" are in my experience people who are lackadaisical and in fact to blame for a lot of things.

All that said, people on this board trying to assign blame is ridiculous. We are not a court of law, and we don't know all the facts involved. However, if you think no one is to blame for this incident, you really are living in Fantasy land

Why is this? Blame implies fault. Fault implies negligence which is what has folks on both sides of the fence up in arms. You can certainly find a root cause that has both parties innocent of blame for an accident. Accidents such as plane crashes MUST have someone to blame, I stand by my reasons above. The NTSB might be found at fault if they didn't blame someone. No blame has to be laid out to bring about change. The act in and of itself can do that all on its own without finger pointing and teeth gnashing.

This is all beside the point about whether CM's were concerned about the alligators or not. One thing that all of this has done though, is open some eyes to their surroundings. Many now know that there is no such thing as completely safe. A little awareness can go a long way to preventing the next tragedy.

 

[we*heart*disney]

I am so shocked by some of the comments in this thread and the other alligator threads.

I have been a lurker on this board for years and am a huge Disney fan and can tell you that I would have not thought twice about letting my daughter play near the shore and maybe even dip her toes in the water on that pretty little beach.

As a Canadian, I am well aware that Florida has alligators. But I did not know, until now, that they live any where, and can out run any human, and that they would snatch up a child from shallow water. The only time I have seen an alligator is at the zoo just lying there, I've never seen one swimming or moving. I thought they were only found in unpopulated wild swamp lands. I didn't know they were like common pests that went into people swimming pools and every body of water in Florida.

I live near a tourist destination (Banff). We have bears, cougars, moose, etc all over the place here but you don't see them walking downtown Calgary during rush hour. Everyone here KNOWS what to do. We KNOW to take precautions with ourselves and our pets. And when tourists come to the visitor attractions in our parks they are explicitly warned to not feed or approached the bears or other wildlife. There is signage and brochures and the risk of wildlife is highly publicized. For those tourists who don't take the risk seriously - or who somehow didn't get the memo - they are verbally told by residents or employees at the parks and resorts. Some still chose to ignore and put themselves at risk, usually for a picture, but at least they are told and warned.

When I go to Hawaii as a tourist I KNOW that sharks, for example, are a risk because it's in all the literature I have read prior to my vacation.

So when I go to Disney World I'm a Disney tourist. I'm there for a Disney Vacation. I fly in and head to the park and don't travel outside of it. If I was at that resort at that family activity I would have had no idea that there could be alligators in that lake. I thought it was all man made and all a safe attraction. I would have thought the no swimming sign meant no swimming due to sharp object, water contamination, boats in the area, no lifeguard, risk of drowning, and things that I am familiar with like that.

Prior to our Disney vacations I research Disney. Not all of Florida. I would never in a million years have even though about an alligator at a populated Disney resort.

My heart hurts thinking about that boy's family and about how this traumatic death may have been prevented if Disney had simply posted a warning.

 

[JenLT]

I

I live near a tourist destination (Banff). We have bears, cougars, moose, etc all over the place here but you don't see them walking downtown Calgary during rush hour. Everyone here KNOWS what to do. We KNOW to take precautions with ourselves and our pets. And when tourists come to the visitor attractions in our parks they are explicitly warned to not feed or approached the bears or other wildlife. There is signage and brochures and the risk of wildlife is highly publicized. For those tourists who don't take the risk seriously - or who somehow didn't get the memo - they are verbally told by residents or employees at the parks and resorts. Some still chose to ignore and put themselves at risk, usually for a picture, but at least they are told and warned.....

...
Prior to our Disney vacations I research Disney. Not all of Florida. I would never in a million years have even though about an alligator at a populated Disney resort.

My heart hurts thinking about that boy's family and about how this traumatic death may have been prevented if Disney had simply posted a warning.

This use of signage at other tourist destinations, public parks, and other public places really increases the sense of safety when there are no warnings. Always at the back of the mind is Disney wouldn't encourage people to do it if it wasn't safe.

Lots of people have been saying why blame someone at all... There have been some close calls at Disney from alligators and Disney employees worried about the problem, yet nothing was done to warn people. I hate to say it of Disney World but it seems like they are only putting up signs now because of possible liability and as a public relations tool. If there is no blame put on Disney World, they will continue with the same policies and procedures. Holding Disney accountable for not warning guests and for neither enforcing the law (no feeding alligators) or telling guest that its illegal to feed alligators will force them to take corrective measures. These steps may save another person from dying.