The Case Against College Education

[The Mystery Machine]

mine is less than 4000 a semester. and no, its not a community college. its also the largest university in tennessee with more than 30 thousand undergrads. its also not a bad school. we have the best aerospace program in the country.

Do you live at home? I am talking tuition plus room and board.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

Ok, but how does an 18 year old or 22 year old come to you with "real life" experience? Around here you would never get an interview for an IT job without a 4 year degree from a top school.

If I am hiring entry level, the person with a degree is automatically at a disadvantage. You see, they think that their degree is going to help me. It isn't. Because they think that their degree is going to help me, they want more money. They think that their 4 year degree = 4 years of experience. It doesn't equal one day of experience.

So, let's say that I am hiring someone to work on the helpdesk - entry level. I am going to look for someone who is computer literate, has a great attitude, is willing to work shifts, and is going to be happy making an entry level salary. The college grad may have all of those - but they would not be happy working for $30k/yr in NYC or on Long Island. A HS grad who dabbled in computers would be.

So, let's chart two friends, both of whom like computers. One goes to college out of HS, the other goes to work for a company on their helpdesk. Four year later, the college grad is still competing with HS grads for that job, while the HS grad is now managing a shift at the helpdesk making $50k/yr or more. Who knows where they will be 5 or 10 years farther down the road, but the experience is hard to make up early in a career.

So, if you want to get into IT without going to college, you need to either be a bit of a computer geek and be willing to teach yourself or go to an IT technical school. I hire most of my entry levels from technical schools...

 

[LisaR]

This is what I want to know. Last year I could barely find a job, and ended up working for minimum wage at a doggy daycare. That was all that I could find. Other places weren't hiring or required X years of experience and/or degree. HOW do you get experience if you can't get hired? (By the way, I do have marketable skills, but that doesn't seem to help much when there's nothing out there, and most of the people applying have a degree)

This is why I'm in college - I don't want to roll the dice with my life... This year I graduate and now I have many large companies looking at me.

I don't have the luxury of coming from money, my parents have struggled my entire life and still do. Me not going to college would have guaranteed me the same struggle in my opinion - it's very rare you break that cycle. I worked my *** off and got scholarships because I had to.

I guess I just don't agree that everyone who doesn't go to college will be fine if they TRY. I don't think I would have ever had a very successful life without my education.

I think there was a better chance of that even just 5 or 6 years ago. With the economy today, I don't see it either. Are there companies that will hire someone without a degree? Sure. But they really are few and far between now.

My DH works for a major company. They never had a problem hiring salaried workers without a degree. When cut backs came though, those without degrees were the first to go - even if they had been with the company 20 years. In fairness, many with degrees were also let go. Now you simply can not get a job interview with them unless you have a degree. Period. The positions that do not require degrees are unionized so that is a whole different story but you are talking about things like janitors and such (nothing wrong with that but that is what is available).

At the moment, DH is overseeing a project that used to employ almost all college degree individuals. Instead, they got rid of those people and now pay another company to hire the employees to contract for the company DH works for. Those workers now get paid $10 an hour vs. $30. You need technical experience to do this job but a degree isn't necessary. But who can feed a family on $10 an hour especially when they purposely avoid letting too many work full time so they don't have to pay benefits? You can get a job making $25 - $30 an hour with this company but those employees need to have a degree and experience. They must also be hard workers because there are only three of them compared to the 60 that used to do the job.

Things have changed in a relatively short period of time and while I do not believe college is for everyone, I believe a higher education is important.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

No, I actually meant a state college that is close to where we live thereby allowing my daughters to commute. They could live at home and save money on room/board. So, yes, $4000 is what I saw last time I checked about a week ago. That is tuition for a full time, in state student. To put it in perspective, out of state would be $12,000. Not too shabby!

Wow, that is pretty nice.

Here in MO, you have the option of going to UMSL which is in a bad part of town. It is probably about the same. I looked on their site and it is going to run about 350. per credit hour.

The commuting is bad. However, dd may go this route. Who knows?

The rest of the state schools run in the 6-8 range. But then you are looking at room and board.

 

[golfgal]

If I am hiring entry level, the person with a degree is automatically at a disadvantage. You see, they think that their degree is going to help me. It isn't. Because they think that their degree is going to help me, they want more money. They think that their 4 year degree = 4 years of experience. It doesn't equal one day of experience.

So, let's say that I am hiring someone to work on the helpdesk - entry level. I am going to look for someone who is computer literate, has a great attitude, is willing to work shifts, and is going to be happy making an entry level salary. The college grad may have all of those - but they would not be happy working for $30k/yr in NYC or on Long Island. A HS grad who dabbled in computers would be.

So, let's chart two friends, both of whom like computers. One goes to college out of HS, the other goes to work for a company on their helpdesk. Four year later, the college grad is still competing with HS grads for that job, while the HS grad is now managing a shift at the helpdesk making $50k/yr or more. Who knows where they will be 5 or 10 years farther down the road, but the experience is hard to make up early in a career.

So, if you want to get into IT without going to college, you need to either be a bit of a computer geek and be willing to teach yourself or go to an IT technical school. I hire most of my entry levels from technical schools...

OK but you are still hiring kids with some kind of degree-post secondary education. I also have to say that if someone around here graduated from a 4 year school with a computer science degree they would NOT be applying for help desk positions for $30K unless they were really bad. Most people around here with a 4 year degree are getting computer programming jobs that start in the 70K+ range to start. If you move into management, double that at least. You have said in the past you have people working for you making "good" money without degrees, I do NOT consider $50K "good" money, around here that is entry level money for someone with a 4 year degree. I couldn't imagine trying to live off $50K in New York or even NJ . It's all relative.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

OK but you are still hiring kids with some kind of degree-post secondary education. I also have to say that if someone around here graduated from a 4 year school with a computer science degree they would NOT be applying for help desk positions for $30K unless they were really bad. Most people around here with a 4 year degree are getting computer programming jobs that start in the 70K+ range to start. If you move into management, double that at least.

You really think that people out of college jump into IT management positions with no experience making $140k/year? FYI - most college grads do not start in the IT field making more that $40k/yr.

You have said in the past you have people working for you making "good" money without degrees, I do NOT consider $50K "good" money, around here that is entry level money for someone with a 4 year degree. I couldn't imagine trying to live off $50K in New York or even NJ . It's all relative.

I have 3 people working for me who have never attended college making over $100k/yr. Does that not qualify in your book?

Maybe a few emoticons will help you decide...

 

[frndshpcptn]

I think it really depends on the field - but in my industry you need BOTH a degree and great internship / work experience to even get an interview (public relations).


Funny enough - I don't really remember much of what I learned at college - the majority of my skill set comes from my years in the field...but I would never have even gotten into the field without the degree in the first place.

I kind of agree - I think in some ways an aprenticeship and/or internship really IS more valuable in terms of work-skills in some areas

 

[turkeymama]

Snip......

DS's school charges a flat rate for tuition, anything between 12-18 credits you pay the same price. They consider a full-load to be 16 credits though. Most of the costs people have posted here include everything, your cost is just for tuition.

Yep, just for tuition. The person I was posting that for was also talking about tuition only, since we were talking about people who live close to a good state college and are able to commute. I guess we must be an exception where I live because there are so many options for higher education that wouldn't require a student to live away from home, on-campus.

 

[turkeymama]

You really think that people out of college jump into IT management positions with no experience making $140k/year? FYI - most college grads do not start in the IT field making more that $40k/yr.I have 3 people working for me who have never attended college making over $100k/yr. Does that not qualify in your book?

Maybe a few emoticons will help you decide...

My husband just came from a management position making around $100k/year and he has no degree. Qualifies as good money in my book for sure.

 

[Planogirl]

OK but you are still hiring kids with some kind of degree-post secondary education. I also have to say that if someone around here graduated from a 4 year school with a computer science degree they would NOT be applying for help desk positions for $30K unless they were really bad. Most people around here with a 4 year degree are getting computer programming jobs that start in the 70K+ range to start. If you move into management, double that at least. You have said in the past you have people working for you making "good" money without degrees, I do NOT consider $50K "good" money, around here that is entry level money for someone with a 4 year degree. I couldn't imagine trying to live off $50K in New York or even NJ . It's all relative.

What if someone had a technical degree however not one in IT but wished to change careers? Would such people be treated as entry level? (I think that they often should be.)

By the way, 50K is decent money in this area and is quite good for entry level.

 

[golfgal]

You really think that people out of college jump into IT management positions with no experience making $140k/year? FYI - most college grads do not start in the IT field making more that $40k/yr.I have 3 people working for me who have never attended college making over $100k/yr. Does that not qualify in your book?

Maybe a few emoticons will help you decide...

I never said that, I said when the MOVE UP into management--following YOUR example of your helpdesk staff.

Maybe in your area they start at $40K for computer programmers but here it is in the 70K range, 20 years ago our computer programming friend were making 40K to start.

How long has your person making $100K been working there????

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

...How long has your person making $100K been working there????

Each has 15+ years of experience, none of them have worked exclusively at the company that employs us. Their time in service with my employer vary a great deal...

 

[golfgal]

Each has 15+ years of experience, none of them have worked exclusively at the company that employs us. Their time in service with my employer vary a great deal...

Then for 15+ years of work experience, no, I don't think that is a good salary, especially for the cost of living in NJ/NY. Most people here post their property taxes in NJ and they are more then what I pay in my mortgage each year and the cost of living here is still pretty high, but not as high as it is there.


The meter readers for the electric company make $43K/year if that puts it into perspective.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

Then for 15+ years of work experience, no, I don't think that is a good salary, especially for the cost of living in NJ/NY. Most people here post their property taxes in NJ and they are more then what I pay in my mortgage each year and the cost of living here is still pretty high, but not as high as it is there.

LOL - where did I say that these guys are based in NY/NJ? One of them lives in far upstate NY, one lives in Houston, and one lives on Long Island (he makes a whole lot more than $100k/yr.) I promise you that they are all paid very well within their respective markets. They have to be, as we are a very large company and expect a great deal from our staff.

But I am sure that you have another comeback. You have decided that you are going to "win" this thread. But, whatever cranks your tractor...

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

*** snip *** I also have to say that if someone around here graduated from a 4 year school with a computer science degree they would NOT be applying for help desk positions for $30K unless they were really bad. *** snip ***

"Someone with a computer science degree working help desk? That's like graduating from culinary school to work the line at the Olive Garden." At least that's what my computer nerd partner said.

The entitled attitude has little to do with the school, going to college, or going to grad school. It's really a generational thing. It's a sad defining characteristic of the Millenials. The hope is that reality can snap them out of it and into becoming the next "great generation." They may be entitled, but they also have amazing drive and ambition and a genuine desire to do good things in the world. I just want them to stop cheating.

For those of you contemplating school choices for your children in the future, remember that my family paid less to send me to an elite institution than my girlfriend and her parents spent to send her to Trenton State College. Both of our families had about the same financial means, but her dad insisted that he wasn't going to be able to afford some fancy school. When you get to the elite level, all the schools are going to meet 100% of your need.

Not everyone should be in college. We should move toward opening jobs to high school grads once more. But we all know that's not happening.

 

[MrsPete]

Anyone that says they didn't go to parties in college is not telling the truth. Everyone goes to parties but not everyone drinks. We went to a lot of parties and yes, we drank. Some people drank excessively but most did not. I was odd that I didn't like beer in college (and still don't) so I didn't drink at most parties because there wasn't anything besides beer .

I can't agree with EVERYONE because I did know a number of people who literally never did the party thing. If you say the MAJORITY, I'll agree with that.

I guess I just don't agree that everyone who doesn't go to college will be fine if they TRY. I don't think I would have ever had a very successful life without my education.

I agree completely. You can find plenty of examples of people FROM PAST GENERATIONS who had little in the way of formal education and made up for it with hard work and talent -- but you won't find many of these exceptional people amongst our children's generation. Those doors are largely closed.

If I am hiring entry level, the person with a degree is automatically at a disadvantage. You see, they think that their degree is going to help me. It isn't. Because they think that their degree is going to help me, they want more money. They think that their 4 year degree = 4 years of experience. It doesn't equal one day of experience.

Then you're being unfair by deciding ahead of time that a degreed individual isn't going to have a chance. Because of your personal bias, you're discounting anyone without a degree without even looking at his or her qualifications. Are you aware that more and more college students -- particularly those in technical fields like engineering, architecture, and computer fields -- are doing internships that give them extensive hands-on experience? Our universities are moving towards four days in the classroom, one day a week in the work world.

 

[freckles and boo]

You can find plenty of examples of people FROM PAST GENERATIONS who had little in the way of formal education and made up for it with hard work and talent -- but you won't find many of these exceptional people amongst our children's generation. Those doors are largely closed.

My father and grandfather are excellent examples of this. Both retired after more than thirty years in the fire service as battalion chiefs. My father was also the hazardous materials officer and has a great understanding of chemistry. Although he is retired he is currently involved with FEMA at the county level. My dad had one year of university. My grandfather had only a high school education and was a WWII veteran. Both were able to have great careers with very good pensions without college degrees.

My uncle, who is ten years younger than my dad, was able to become a fire fighter with a high school diploma but in order to move up the ladder earned both a bachelor's degree in fire science and a masters in public administration. My brother, who is generation younger and likely has a learning disability, would make an excellent fire fighter but the door is definitely closed to him. He cannot get hired at the departments my dad, grandfather, and uncle worked for because those jobs now require a college education, which he will never earn.

 

[golfgal]

My father and grandfather are excellent examples of this. Both retired after more than thirty years in the fire service as battalion chiefs. My father was also the hazardous materials officer and has a great understanding of chemistry. Although he is retired he is currently involved with FEMA at the county level. My dad had one year of university. My grandfather had only a high school education and was a WWII veteran. Both were able to have great careers with very good pensions without college degrees.

My uncle, who is ten years younger than my dad, was able to become a fire fighter with a high school diploma but in order to move up the ladder earned both a bachelor's degree in fire science and a masters in public administration. My brother, who is generation younger and likely has a learning disability, would make an excellent fire fighter but the door is definitely closed to him. He cannot get hired at the departments my dad, grandfather, and uncle worked for because those jobs now require a college education, which he will never earn.

Many colleges around the country have programs for students with learning disabilities. It is worth looking into at least if that is what he wants to do.

 

[freckles and boo]

Many colleges around the country have programs for students with learning disabilities. It is worth looking into at least if that is what he wants to do.

Thanks. I wish those programs existed when he was younger. He is now too old to be hired as a probationary fire fighter at most departments. He does work as a volunteer firefighter in his small town and he works part-time for the Fire Service Institute at the University of Illinois (and drives a truck full-time). I am not sure what he does there now, but he used to start training fires which made him a professional arsonist.

 

[eliza61]

My uncle, who is ten years younger than my dad, was able to become a fire fighter with a high school diploma but in order to move up the ladder earned both a bachelor's degree in fire science and a masters in public administration. My brother, who is generation younger and likely has a learning disability, would make an excellent fire fighter but the door is definitely closed to him. He cannot get hired at the departments my dad, grandfather, and uncle worked for because those jobs now require a college education, which he will never earn.

Many colleges around the country have programs for students with learning disabilities. It is worth looking into at least if that is what he wants to do.

Very true. My oldest son is right on the Aspergers scale. He is a freshman at Marshall University in West Virginia. He is going very slow and it's a huge adjustment for him but he is succeeding. go to amazon, they sell huge books on colleges that cater to students with learning disabilities.