the Blessed Virgin Mary

[LindsayDunn228]

Except that the Canon was selected by the early Church. If Scripture is inSpired, so is the early church and its traditions. That's how the Bible was put together. There are many references in scripture that made it into the Canon to stories that did not. There's no separating the two

I'm not flaming you, just curious. Why do you write inspired like that? At first I thought it was a typo, but I've seen you do this several times.

 

[deelam]

I love Mary. I feel as those she watches over us and I pray to her.

 

[Tinks]

That's a leap most Protestants don't make. The Bible does say that Scripture is inspired (All scripture is God-Breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. 2 Tim 3:16) but it does not say that the Church is inspired.

As to how the scriptures could be inspired without the same happening to the Church, we believe that God promised that the scriptures would be inspired and therefore there was some kind of supernatural protection to them that the early church didn't necessarily have.

This is interesting! My only immediate response was "Lo, I will be with you always, even to the close of the age." Last chapter of Matthew.

Also, not a direct quote because I can't remember it directly, but "whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven" (help me out here!) This tells me the early church most definitely was/is inspired! Perfect? Maybe not. But guided by the Spirit? Yes.

How about Pentacost? Another reason to point out that the early church fathers were inspired.


This is good interesting discussion! I like how everyone is very tactful and curious! Love the Baptist commandments!

 

[Buckalew11]

I can think of a couple, at least that I've heard about.

Thou shalt not drink alcohol.
Thou shalt not dance.
Thou shalt not play cards.

DM was raised Baptist, and broke them all.

Baptists do not have 17 commandments. We have 10. The way it is written in scripture #10 is something lik verse 17. So, we started the joke about having 17 when Mouse was a wee bit confused. (You had to be there! )

Anyway, the above aren't part of Baptist commandments. I've been Baptist since I was 10 and I promise these aren't part of our faith. However, I think most Baptist Church frown on drinking of any sort. But a lot of Baptists drink anyway. No cards or dancing is some other denomination or possibly some older Baptists personal choice. But they have NOTHING to do with Baptists and their faith.

 

[DISUNC]

We only have 10 but we discovered that the Protestant, Catholic and Jewish faiths seperate the scripture in different places and we each have a set of 10 Commandments that read differently.

THE 10 COMMANDMENTS are the excactly same for all these 3 faiths. Absolutely no difference!
Did you ever hear the saying "it is set in stone"...That saying derives from the 10 commandments were written in stone & cannot be changed. Where as the Bible was written on parchment, and some believe/some dont has been altered throughout the centuries.

 

[helenabear]

Thanks for answering my question. My brother got married in a Catholic church and they bowed at various saint's statues as part of the ceremony. I think it was more like a kneel instead of a Japanese bow. There were statues all around the room that they made their way to.

Definitely not the norm. We do have a tradition where we have a moment to pray to Mary during the ceremony. We did that and actually I wish we had taken it out. My DH and I are not near as much "into Mary" as some Catholics are. The kneeling or bowling is just a sign of reverence to be done while praying or being blessed. Why they would stop at multiple saints is beyond me. But they were NOT worshipping a Saint, just most likely stopping to pray and therefore kneeling or bowing

DISUNC, no offense, but your Catholic church is WAY off! There is no worshipping of anyone other than GOD! If you are worshiping other idols, then you are not a true Catholic and you are definitely NOT a Christian! You are giving the Catholic Church a bad name. Spouting off things that no one should be believing or taught. Sounds straight out of mideval times when the Church was totally screwed up.

Buckalew, if you are referring to the talk about not going to a medium or the like, I totally see that as not the same with communicating with the dead. First of all, silently asking for someone to pray for you is not trying to bring them back to Earth to talk. Second I am no medium, I do not pretend to talk to the dead. I believe that my mom is up in heaven watching me, kind of like an angel. I believe as she watches she knows my pain. I believe that she could just as easily call out to God for me as my living husband does. Do you have another quote (other than in Leviticus) that would point out this as wrong?

FWIW, I know Catholics are not the only ones who have traditional inspired ideas. I have heard many talk about the age of reasoning. And why baptism/being saved/being reborn (however you want to look at it) is not something to worry about in a child. They are too young to know or reason for themselves. I know that's not in the Bible either.

Almost all I know have *something* along those lines that cannot be pointed back to the Bible itself. There are also a lot of writings out there that are looked at by some religions that are not apart of the official Bible. I know that is where some of the traditions come from as well.

 

[Crankyshank]

Catholics do not worship Mary or the Saints, we venerate them. There's a big difference between worship and veneration. Not all Catholics have much to do with Mary. My major religious influence was my very French Catholic Grandmother and I went to a French Catholic elementary school - the French Catholics are really into Mary (the old Cathedral's rose windows of stained glass are all dedicated to Mary) because of Lourdes and LaSalette and because of the Reformation and the skirmishes with the Huguenots where Catholics were shunned for having anything even remotely associated with Mary, but I know a lot of the Irish and Italian Catholics around here aren't so much into Mary.

I also do not bow to their statues. I'd be bowing in front of a good percentage of houses on my way to work each morning if that were the case The only bowing I do at Church is the genuflection to the tabernacle. My Church has a statue of Mary and offeratory candles in front of her with a kneeling so you can kneel and pray for her intercession. It's a beautiful ritual and brings me great comfort. Most Churches in my area with a statue of Mary have a similar set up.

 

[Dreamer04]

The Blessed Mother is so highly regarded, not only because she was chosen. She accepted! "let it be done to me as you say"

Mary teaches us obedience, patience, purity. At the wedding in Caanon (sic), when Mary asks her Son for help for the wedding party. This is the beginning of the tradition that Mary intercedes for us to her Son.

Personally, I talk to Mary all the time. Jesus was God made man. Mary was a human being. A woman, a wife, a mother. She knew the heartache of a mother looking for her lost Child, a mother worrying about her Son, a mother losing her Son. (edited to add) Jesus teaches me these things, too. As a child, I was encouraged to study His life. Jesus was like us in all way except sin. So, by emulating Him, I would lead a better life. (end of edit)

When I get frustrated and tired, I know that Mary felt that way, too. Such consolation!

When I am afraid, I repeat-over and over-two prayers.

Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, I place my trust in Thee.

And the Hail Mary.

 

[Rella Bella]

Helenabear -- well said!
Sodaseller -- thanks for the great additions!

DisUnc... I don't dispute your ties to the Catholic Church, or the way your parish celebrates. The way you phrased your first post led me to believe that you haven't been involved actively, because the way Catholics view things was explained very differently to me during RCIA, (my catechisim, the teaching of adults entering the church). I am sad because I feel like you are confusing the Protestants about what the Church teaches.

I was taught by the church very clearly that our relationship with the saints & Mary is not worship but reverence. Maybe that isn't much of a difference to you, but to a Protestant it is a HUGE difference. Worship is saved for God only, and the Catholic Church taught me exactly that.

Prayer in regard to the saints & Mary is also an area of semantical understanding. Prayer is talking to God. But "I pray you" was also a way of saying "I ask you", that is where the word "prayer" came from.

I was taught as Catholics that when we "ask the saints & Mary to pray for us" we may, as Catholics, call it a prayer, but we all know it is only God we pray to.

If you believe God hears your prayers -- or will hear if you ask friends or church family to pray for you or will hear when any of us pray for the needs of others -- it is God who hears and God who answers.

When I ask Mary to pray for me, I have already prayed to God in Jesus name. It is the same as asking my DH to pray. Does God hear? You bet. Have I sinned and "worshipped an idol"? No way. When the prayer is answered to I praise my DH? No I praise God because HE answered. Likewise if I asked Mary, and my prayer is answered, while I may thank Mary for her prayers; it is only God who I will praise and thank for the answer to my prayer.

 

[sodaseller]

I'm not flaming you, just curious. Why do you write inspired like that? At first I thought it was a typo, but I've seen you do this several times.

No offense taken. The term inspired literally means infused with the Spirit, meaning Holy Spirit (pneuma or breath, to be technical). The word plainly has become secularized, but when I use it in this specific sense, i.e., sacred scripture was "inSpired", i.e. directed by the influence of the Holy Spirit, I am referring a member of the Triune GodHead, a fancy way of saying God. We then capitalize for respect just as if I were using a pronoun, i.e. He, which I always capitalize if I am referring to God

 

[DISUNC]

DISUNC, no offense, but your Catholic church is WAY off! There is no worshipping of anyone other than GOD! If you are worshiping other idols, then you are not a true Catholic and you are definitely NOT a Christian! You are giving the Catholic Church a bad name. Spouting off things that no one should be believing or taught. Sounds straight out of mideval times when the Church was totally screwed up.[/font]


YUP! It is ME who is giving the Catholic Church a bad name!!!! You got me there! ALL ME!

First off, since you know so much about being a Catholic. You do realize once baptised a Catholic...ALWAYS a Catholic!! It is really not up to some person on the internet to excommunicate another member of the Church!
So if I pray to The Blessed Virgin, I am NO LONGER even a Christian! You better tell the Pope this one!
What am I sprouting off that is so offensible? You are of medevil mindset!
Seriously, think of what you are writing here.

 

[helenabear]

YUP! It is ME who is giving the Catholic Church a bad name!!!! You got me there! ALL ME!

First off, since you know so much about being a Catholic. You do realize once baptised a Catholic...ALWAYS a Catholic!! It is really not up to some person on the internet to excommunicate another member of the Church!
So if I pray to The Blessed Virgin, I am NO LONGER even a Christian! You better tell the Pope this one!
What am I sprouting off that is so offensible? You are of medevil mindset!
Seriously, think of what you are writing here.

No, you are trying to represent a church you are no longer even really an active member of. Saying that you WORSHIP Mary as in treat her as a "god" (which is what worshipping is about) then no, you cannot be Christin since you are WORSHIPPING more than just GOD! You understand the point?

You are offensive since you are spouting out ideas that no true Catholic would practice or have practiced since the dark ages of the church. And obviously I cannot excommunicate anyone, but to claim you WORSHIP Mary and to do all these things that go against any real Catholic, would make other Catholics want to defend the true parts of the faith.

You offend me, since I have so many issues as it is trying to defend the Catholic church to non-Catholic Christians. Then someone who says they are Catholic starts saying things that are untrue of the Church. Making it out to seem like we are as bad as some try to say we are. Saying we worship false idols and all that. If you truly worship Mary, you are breaking a commandment. If you continue to worship her knowing that is wrong, you are committing a mortal sin... I shouldn't have to tell you what happens when you do that.

I think you need to get your facts straight before you start telling other Catholics who are following the correct teachings of the Church that they are wrong, and thereby helping to teach non-Catholics untruths that would lay to claim that we are not Christian

Think before you type next time.

 

[rie'smom]

I don't worship Mary but I do love her and ask for her help. I think of her as my heavenly mother,don't you ask your mom for help?
The co-redemptrix thing is because people ask for her intercession with Jesus-that's it.It is not meant to put her as an equal to God. I think that the church screwed up in the wording of this because so many people are confused.

 

[sodaseller]

That's a leap most Protestants don't make. The Bible does say that Scripture is inspired (All scripture is God-Breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. 2 Tim 3:16) but it does not say that the Church is inspired.

As to how the scriptures could be inspired without the same happening to the Church, we believe that God promised that the scriptures would be inspired and therefore there was some kind of supernatural protection to them that the early church didn't necessarily have.

Really don't want to say anything that might offend another's belief, but I at least find it hard to separate the two. The Bible did not fall from Heaven to northern Lebanon. There were numerous books floating out there for the first two hundred years after Christ's death and resurrection. I think it was Marcion, later deemed heretical, who first tried to put together a Canon of "approved" books. Eventutally the protoOrthodox Church Fathers, through Iranaes (again from memory)( and Mothers, truth be told), put togther what we now know as the Bible. To do so, they rejected numerous texts, a recent example of which is the Gnostic Gospel of Judas, considered heretical. Also, the Synoptic gospels all are derived from a collection of Christ's saying, called Quelle (the "source") by New Testament Scholars, which was derived from the oral tradition.

So it's really hard for me at least to accept that Scripture can be inSpired but not the oral traditions that were reduced to that same written scripture, or the same Church that decided what books consitited sacred Scripture. But I say that with no intent to offend. I also firmly believe Luther was correct that tradition had become abused and reliance on Scripture was an appropriate reform in that context, but that's a whole other thread

 

[MouseWorshipin]

I think it makes Protestants scratch their heads for 2 reasons. 1) The Bible says not to try to communicate with the dead and 2) The Bible says that Jesus is our "High Priest".

I also believe Mary was very special--chosen by God to give birth to Jesus Christ. I believe we are told she was a vigin at the time of his conception (Virgin Mary) but afterward, she had other children so she didn't remain a virgin. She was married. Just because she was married and had other children wouldn't make her having children with her husband a sin. Sex within marriage is not sinful in the eyes of our God. It is a gift. So for Mary to go on and have children doesn't flaw her in any way. There has only been one perfect, sinless person. There only needed to be one. All that needed to be done was done through Jesus Christ's actions on that cross and in that tomb. But God definitely loved Mary very much for her to be chosen to bear His son. I take nothing away from her except that I do not think she was a sinless human as Christ was.
The Holy Spirit is our innercessor through prayer. Even when we aren't sure of what to say, He helps convey to God what we try and need to say.
JMHO.

(Hi Mouse!!)

Yo, yo, yo...Wassup, my peep?

Mary isn't worshipped. It kinda goes like this:

God,
Jesus
................................................(Holy Spirit)................
Mary (the greatest of saints)

the rest of the saints

But Mary is a very big deal (some theologans study Mariology - the study of Mary - almost exclusively). Mary is considered by the church to be a part of the faith. Marian teaching is not a supplement to doctrine that is complete without her. As she was the mother of Christ, we kinda see her as the mother of Christianity. But they had meetings and decided she isn't the formal Mother of the Church, rather a most loving mother. But catholics, including the former pope, see her that way, and believe her to be so. We are all kinda her children, like we're the children of God (although God IS the Father).

Catholics have six "Holydays of Obligation," which are days we have to go to church that aren't necessarily Sundays. Three of them are Mary related: January 1 (The Solemnity of the Mother of God), August 15 (The Assumption), December 8 (the Immaculate Conception). November 1st is All Saints Day, and since Mary is a saint, she's kinda involved there, too.

Mary (full of grace) exemplifies faith, hope, love of God, and generous concern for others. Because Mary agreed to the whole Immaculate Conception deal (Annunciation, consenting to Incarnation), Jesus was able to be born, which gives her divine motherhood status. When Jesus says, "behold your mother" it is taken to mean she's kinda mother to everyone. She's taken (body and soul) to heaven, where she continues to intercede for all her children.

Someone mentioned Mary and women. No doubt women look to her more. Because of the life she led, she is an inspiration in her devotion to God and then to Jesus. The single, married, and widowed can all be inspired by her.

What you say about the bible? I dunno WHAT the bible says about talking to, or praying to, dead people, because (of course) I don't read it. I'm guessing it makes an exception for Jesus? And I'm hoping it makes an exception for parents / grandparents (?).

But, anyway, we pray to Mary and the Saints. They aren't worshiped as God is, but are revered and respected. They aren't just regular people to us.

I'm not trying to "sell" anyone on Mary or the rest of the saints. It's a Catholic thing. And I did my best to explain it.

 

[Dan Murphy]

Well said and summarized, helenabear and sodaseller, I think unc maybe is pulling our chain, LOL.

 

[AuntieM03]

In Matthew 12:46-50 Jesus is told that His mother and brothers are waiting to speak to Him. Jesus says in verse 48-50 "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" Pointing to his disciples, he said, "here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

It seems in that verse Jesus is putting Mary in no higher esteem than all those who do the will of God.

 

[beattyfamily]

In Matthew 12:46-50 Jesus is told that His mother and brothers are waiting to speak to Him. Jesus says in verse 48-50 "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" Pointing to his disciples, he said, "here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

It seems in that verse Jesus is putting Mary in no higher esteem than all those who do the will of God.

Quoting a verse from the Bible won't change the minds of thousands of Catholic about Mary. Sorry.

When Jesus then saw his mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!" Then He said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" (John 19:26-27) Catholics believe at that moment Mary was given as mother to all Christians.

 

[Buckalew11]

Yo, yo, yo...Wassup, my peep?

Mary isn't worshipped. It kinda goes like this:

God,
Jesus
................................................(Holy Spirit)................
Mary (the greatest of saints)

the rest of the saints

But Mary is a very big deal (some theologans study Mariology - the study of Mary - almost exclusively). Mary is considered by the church to be a part of the faith. Marian teaching is not a supplement to doctrine that is complete without her. As she was the mother of Christ, we kinda see her as the mother of Christianity. But they had meetings and decided she isn't the formal Mother of the Church, rather a most loving mother. But catholics, including the former pope, see her that way, and believe her to be so. We are all kinda her children, like we're the children of God (although God IS the Father).

Catholics have six "Holydays of Obligation," which are days we have to go to church that aren't necessarily Sundays. Three of them are Mary related: January 1 (The Solemnity of the Mother of God), August 15 (The Assumption), December 8 (the Immaculate Conception). November 1st is All Saints Day, and since Mary is a saint, she's kinda involved there, too.

Mary (full of grace) exemplifies faith, hope, love of God, and generous concern for others. Because Mary agreed to the whole Immaculate Conception deal (Annunciation, consenting to Incarnation), Jesus was able to be born, which gives her divine motherhood status. When Jesus says, "behold your mother" it is taken to mean she's kinda mother to everyone. She's taken (body and soul) to heaven, where she continues to intercede for all her children.

Someone mentioned Mary and women. No doubt women look to her more. Because of the life she led, she is an inspiration in her devotion to God and then to Jesus. The single, married, and widowed can all be inspired by her.

What you say about the bible? I dunno WHAT the bible says about talking to, or praying to, dead people, because (of course) I don't read it. I'm guessing it makes an exception for Jesus? And I'm hoping it makes an exception for parents / grandparents (?).

But, anyway, we pray to Mary and the Saints. They aren't worshiped as God is, but are revered and respected. They aren't just regular people to us.

I'm not trying to "sell" anyone on Mary or the rest of the saints. It's a Catholic thing. And I did my best to explain it.

Thanks for a job well done! While I don't believe in saints and all that, I respect it. I think any of the saints that I have read anything about (or learned about in Catholic Bible School in my youth) were special, God-fearing, God loving, good people who were giving and selfless. Wonderful examples of sharing God's Love.

The Bible doesn't have to make an exception in the topic of speaking to the dead because Jesus ISN'T dead. He died and ROSE AGAIN. He transcended into Heaven and remains there until the appointed time. No exception needed!
Parents? Grandparents? I haven't seen anything giving exception, so I don't know. I just think it is something to be careful of. I, too, have *talked* to my grandparents who are deceased. Not the kind where I'm calling them "up" (as a medium would do) but just me talking. Is it wrong? I don't know. It can bring a certain comfort to me but I know they are dead and, truly, I should probably take my concerns to God. It is just a topic that can be a dangerous thing and something that people can get obsessive about because grief is a very tough part of life.
TO God and from what everyone on this thread says, that is not what Catholics are actually doing.

 

[AuntieM03]

Quoting a verse from the Bible won't change the minds of thousands of Catholic about Mary. Sorry.

When Jesus then saw his mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!" Then He said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" (John 19:26-27) Catholics believe at that moment Mary was given as mother to all Christians.

I don't recall saying that I was trying to change anyones mind. I never realized anyone interpreted John 19:26-27 in that way. I always assumed it in a literal meaning; for John to look after Mary. I do think that was a beautiful moment.

I was baptized into the Catholic church, but mostly all I remember from those days is thinking how cool it was that you could pull down the kneeling thing.