Terror attacks in Brussels

[Teresa Pitman]

This isn't about religion, rather religion is "used" as an excuse. It's about power, control....and money."Everybody wants to rule the world" Some things never change.

This might be true of the leaders, but what about those suicide bombers? They aren't ending up with power or money. But they believe they are pleasing god and on their way to an eternal reward.

 

[Teresa Pitman]

This is the downside of human nature, not of religion.
It's the nature of our species to use whatever is at hand to promote our goals.
Many weak people throughout the ages have used God as their reason perform all manner of evil upon their fellow humans.
That doesn't negate the existence of God or mean that religion as an institution is invalid.
It merely points out that Mankind is a flawed species and therefore will use religion, or anything else at hand for that matter, to attain their wants and needs.
The problem is further exacerbated by the presence of Tribalism.
Our tribe/religion is threatened by their tribe/religion.
Even within a religion it is a festering infection.
Ask a group of Shiites and a group of Sunnis who's interpretation of the Quran is the correct one.
Just don't stand between them as they begin their "discussion" or you may end up dead.

To me, the difference is that when people have different goals and ideas, and religion is NOT involved, there is the possibility of a rational discussion. Not always that simple or easy, of course, but there is the possibility. Once it becomes about religion, then you can't get anywhere.

 

[TLSnell1981]

This might be true of the leaders, but what about those suicide bombers? They aren't ending up with power or money. But they believe they are pleasing god and on their way to an eternal reward.

Ones belief in a higher power, doesn't remove the ability to have a rational or reasonable discussion. IMO

 

[Teresa Pitman]

Ones belief in a higher power, doesn't remove the ability to have a rational or reasonable discussion. IMO

Not necessarily, but it can.

 

[UncleMike101]

To me, the difference is that when people have different goals and ideas, and religion is NOT involved, there is the possibility of a rational discussion. Not always that simple or easy, of course, but there is the possibility. Once it becomes about religion, then you can't get anywhere.

Religion is the manifestation of Mankind's innate belief in a superior being who looks over an afterlife that humans aspire to achieve.
When those beliefs are challenged humans become extremely defensive and often take extreme actions to bolster their belief system.
Eliminating religion from a negotiation in no way makes a favorable outcome any more likely.
Politics, while not innate in humans, has a large influence on discussions as well and more often result in vitriolic exchanges
Perhaps that is why most forums such as this one ban political or religious discussions.
Both subjects are liable to end the discussions on a sour note.

 

[Colleen27]

It seems to be far more complex than that, unfortunately.

Olivier Roy is a professor at the European University Institute in Florence and the author of “Globalized Islam.” He has studied jihadist radicalization extensively. Here's what he has to say about it. From The Washington Post:

I'm not saying there is one cause. There are many, and what causes a young man growing up in Iraq to take up arms for ISIS isn't going to be the same thing that causes an American college kid to try to travel to Syria, and neither of those is going to be the same as the reasoning of a European-raised suicide bomber. But looking at all of those causes, which in the specific case of Brussels are heavily economic, and addressing them is the only way to really get at the heart of the problem. But we're conditioned to look for a "silver bullet" solution to problems - one thing that we can do to stop a problem completely - and from that overly simplistic perspective bombings/war seem to fit the bill better than trying to assess and address complex social and economic forces to head-off the recruiting process.

 

[Colleen27]

To me, the difference is that when people have different goals and ideas, and religion is NOT involved, there is the possibility of a rational discussion. Not always that simple or easy, of course, but there is the possibility. Once it becomes about religion, then you can't get anywhere.

I'm not sure that's true. We certainly see more than our share of secular fanaticism in US politics these days, and I think there's plenty of evidence that non-fanatical religion is open to rational discussion and evolution of beliefs/positions over time.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

This might be true of the leaders, but what about those suicide bombers? They aren't ending up with power or money. But they believe they are pleasing god and on their way to an eternal reward.

They are getting notoriety (power) if what they do is heinous enough.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I'm not saying there is one cause. There are many, and what causes a young man growing up in Iraq to take up arms for ISIS isn't going to be the same thing that causes an American college kid to try to travel to Syria, and neither of those is going to be the same as the reasoning of a European-raised suicide bomber. But looking at all of those causes, which in the specific case of Brussels are heavily economic, and addressing them is the only way to really get at the heart of the problem. But we're conditioned to look for a "silver bullet" solution to problems - one thing that we can do to stop a problem completely - and from that overly simplistic perspective bombings/war seem to fit the bill better than trying to assess and address complex social and economic forces to head-off the recruiting process.

I disagree that bombings and war are an easy solution, if that's what you're trying to say here. But I do think we may be sort of barking up the wrong tree if we think that this problem is purely economical or purely retaliatory, etc. I think it's a complex problem that requires a smart, multi-factorial solution. People need to come together for this, but nobody wants to hear what anyone else has to say.

 

[cabanafrau]

I'm not saying there is one cause. There are many, and what causes a young man growing up in Iraq to take up arms for ISIS isn't going to be the same thing that causes an American college kid to try to travel to Syria, and neither of those is going to be the same as the reasoning of a European-raised suicide bomber. But looking at all of those causes, which in the specific case of Brussels are heavily economic, and addressing them is the only way to really get at the heart of the problem. But we're conditioned to look for a "silver bullet" solution to problems - one thing that we can do to stop a problem completely - and from that overly simplistic perspective bombings/war seem to fit the bill better than trying to assess and address complex social and economic forces to head-off the recruiting process.

I feel very strongly that it would go a long way towards a solution in regards to recruitment if the message from the Muslim community about these hatemongering groups of zealouts would be consistently loud condemnation and repudiation of their actions. It seems to leave room for doubts and questions when the condemnations are there, but are neither the primary or loudest sustained message coming from the Muslim community. That voice needs to speak up loud with the condemnations coming from Christian, Jewish, Hindi, atheist, etc., etc. etc. voices to make it clear, civilized humans who want to live in peace denounce the use of terror to control people and cause civil unrest.

 

[Colleen27]

I feel very strongly that it would go a long way towards a solution in regards to recruitment if the message from the Muslim community about these hatemongering groups of zealouts would be consistently loud condemnation and repudiation of their actions. It seems to leave room for doubts and questions when the condemnations are there, but are neither the primary or loudest sustained message coming from the Muslim community. That voice needs to speak up loud with the condemnations coming from Christian, Jewish, Hindi, atheist, etc., etc. etc. voices to make it clear, civilized humans who want to live in peace denounce the use of terror to control people and cause civil unrest.

In our era, speaking with a loud voice requires a platform and a media megaphone. There have been multiple rallies and prayer vigils in opposition to ISIS and related terror attacks in the Muslim communities of the Detroit area... but the only coverage I've seen of them in national media is when some image from the local coverage gets taken out of context and circulated on social media as "proof" that American Muslims were celebrating in the streets following an attack. The largest chapter of the oldest Muslim organization in America held a prayer vigil for the victims of the Brussels attacks and its leader condemned the bombings as an attack on all humanity. Did you (general) hear one word about that in the media? My guess is no because it didn't even get much attention in the major Detroit media, much less the national outlets. But Politico was more than happy to draw parallels between Dearborn and Mollenbeek in the lead of a recent article.

The sad reality is that conflict, fear, and shock are what drive readership/viewership and as media outlets flounder for want of a stable, sustainable business model a lot of important news gets overlooked in favor of things that will boost the numbers upon which their ad revenues depend.

 

[cabanafrau]

In our era, speaking with a loud voice requires a platform and a media megaphone. There have been multiple rallies and prayer vigils in opposition to ISIS and related terror attacks in the Muslim communities of the Detroit area... but the only coverage I've seen of them in national media is when some image from the local coverage gets taken out of context and circulated on social media as "proof" that American Muslims were celebrating in the streets following an attack. The largest chapter of the oldest Muslim organization in America held a prayer vigil for the victims of the Brussels attacks and its leader condemned the bombings as an attack on all humanity. Did you (general) hear one word about that in the media? My guess is no because it didn't even get much attention in the major Detroit media, much less the national outlets. But Politico was more than happy to draw parallels between Dearborn and Mollenbeek in the lead of a recent article.

The sad reality is that conflict, fear, and shock are what drive readership/viewership and as media outlets flounder for want of a stable, sustainable business model a lot of important news gets overlooked in favor of things that will boost the numbers upon which their ad revenues depend.

Actually my comments are as a metro Detroit resident and largely pointed at the (official) comments coming out of our large Muslim community. Repeatedly the first and consistent message, statements made on our local television stations time and time again, reflect primarily a concern that fingers not be pointed at the Muslim community. I feel very strongly there is a need for louder voices emanating from our Muslim communities denouncing this violence and making it very clear those ideologies of hate go against Muslim beliefs.

After the Paris attacks in November there were several well publicized events where leadership of all faiths came together to pay respects to the victims. That type of action needs to be the loudest, most consistent voice and message out there. The world needs to see Muslims standing up as Muslims, joining hands with Christians being Christians, Jews, etc., etc. -- all standing as one, different, living side by side, content to let each follow their own chosen faith, undisturbed and not a disturbance to their neighbors' practice of whatever faith they wish. I think it will be most helped by Muslim leadership shouting out long and loud that terrorism and violence are not Muslim expressions of faith; no more than KKK or militia nutjobs or anything else have anything to do with Christian beliefs. I think humans speaking up loud and often about their wish to live in peace and leaving the same respect for their neighbors to do the same is the best weapon against violent thugs and murderers, whatever agenda they want to cloak themselves in. It will help cut down on the "us and them" by moving peace seekers into one column and those who cannot play nicely with others into a second column. I think that could tip the balance and make the war on terror winnable. Right now a terrible epidemic is sweeping the world because many are misusing the Muslim tradition to do harm. The most helpful voices to speak up loud right now would be those who know what the Muslim tradition should be and show the way to those who are being confused by a bunch of maniacs.

 

[TLSnell1981]

Actually my comments are as a metro Detroit resident and largely pointed at the (official) comments coming out of our large Muslim community. Repeatedly the first and consistent message, statements made on our local television stations time and time again, reflect primarily a concern that fingers not be pointed at the Muslim community. I feel very strongly there is a need for louder voices emanating from our Muslim communities denouncing this violence and making it very clear those ideologies of hate go against Muslim beliefs.

After the Paris attacks in November there were several well publicized events where leadership of all faiths came together to pay respects to the victims. That type of action needs to be the loudest, most consistent voice and message out there. The world needs to see Muslims standing up as Muslims, joining hands with Christians being Christians, Jews, etc., etc. -- all standing as one, different, living side by side, content to let each follow their own chosen faith, undisturbed and not a disturbance to their neighbors' practice of whatever faith they wish. I think it will be most helped by Muslim leadership shouting out long and loud that terrorism and violence are not Muslim expressions of faith; no more than KKK or militia nutjobs or anything else have anything to do with Christian beliefs. I think humans speaking up loud and often about their wish to live in peace and leaving the same respect for their neighbors to do the same is the best weapon against violent thugs and murderers, whatever agenda they want to cloak themselves in. It will help cut down on the "us and them" by moving peace seekers into one column and those who cannot play nicely with others into a second column. I think that could tip the balance and make the war on terror winnable. Right now a terrible epidemic is sweeping the world because many are misusing the Muslim tradition to do harm. The most helpful voices to speak up loud right now would be those who know what the Muslim tradition should be and show the way to those who are being confused by a bunch of maniacs.

I agree, but the silence IS deafening.

 

[Colleen27]

Actually my comments are as a metro Detroit resident and largely pointed at the (official) comments coming out of our large Muslim community. Repeatedly the first and consistent message, statements made on our local television stations time and time again, reflect primarily a concern that fingers not be pointed at the Muslim community. I feel very strongly there is a need for louder voices emanating from our Muslim communities denouncing this violence and making it very clear those ideologies of hate go against Muslim beliefs.

After the Paris attacks in November there were several well publicized events where leadership of all faiths came together to pay respects to the victims. That type of action needs to be the loudest, most consistent voice and message out there. The world needs to see Muslims standing up as Muslims, joining hands with Christians being Christians, Jews, etc., etc. -- all standing as one, different, living side by side, content to let each follow their own chosen faith, undisturbed and not a disturbance to their neighbors' practice of whatever faith they wish. I think it will be most helped by Muslim leadership shouting out long and loud that terrorism and violence are not Muslim expressions of faith; no more than KKK or militia nutjobs or anything else have anything to do with Christian beliefs. I think humans speaking up loud and often about their wish to live in peace and leaving the same respect for their neighbors to do the same is the best weapon against violent thugs and murderers, whatever agenda they want to cloak themselves in. It will help cut down on the "us and them" by moving peace seekers into one column and those who cannot play nicely with others into a second column. I think that could tip the balance and make the war on terror winnable. Right now a terrible epidemic is sweeping the world because many are misusing the Muslim tradition to do harm. The most helpful voices to speak up loud right now would be those who know what the Muslim tradition should be and show the way to those who are being confused by a bunch of maniacs.

I think the voices are there any they're saying the right things. They just aren't getting the amplification that the wrong voices get because unity and peace aren't attention grabbing messages.

And of course the primary concern is that fingers not be pointed at the Muslim community as a whole... because that's what happens after every one of these attacks, especially when national media outlets are comparing Dearborn to Muslim neighborhoods in Belgium or popping into town to talk sharia law with the Hamtramck city council but never sticking around to see that they're just like every other city council in America, bickering over development and code enforcement and other low-level secular matters. But at some point, I think it is a very natural desire for communities to want to define themselves by what they are, not simply in reaction to what they are not. And I see a great deal of that in the local Muslim community too - a desire to talk about what Islam is, not just what it isn't, and to have an identity that isn't defined relative to terrorism/extremism.

 

[CPanther95]

Source?

Pew Research is a source.

 

[Colleen27]

Pew Research is a source.

I was hoping for specific links. I am aware of the Pew report on Islamic beliefs in Asia/Africa (a few former Soviet republics were included, but most of Europe and all of the Americas were excluded), and your numbers look like maybe they were taken from that report but since it excluded Western Muslims entirely i really isn't fair to characterize the results as applicable to the religion as a whole.

Also, the subsequent questions in that report were a "drilling down", so the half of respondents who answered a particular way weren't half off all surveyed Muslims, only half of those who agreed with the previous question. So if, say, 60% agreed Sharia law should be the law of the land and 50% said it should apply to all residents of the country, that's 50% of the 60% - only 30% of the total. And again, that survey looked only at what we generally think of as Muslim nations. Attitudes among Western Muslims are very different, which serves to underscore the importance of environment and opportunity in influencing extremist beliefs.

 

[Colleen27]

I know, old thread. But I saw this in Time today and it discussed a lot of what I was saying about integration and opportunity as a counter to the ISIS narrative so I thought I'd share: http://time.com/4289016/germany-isis-brussels-islam-muslims-signpost/?iid=sr-link9