Terror attacks in Brussels

[asta]

So sad to learn today that a young man who graduated from the same graduate school that I attended was a victim of the Brussels attack. His wife, also a fellow graduate, has not been found and I fear for the worst. And just a few weeks ago a current student of this school was stabbed death in Israel by another Muslim extremist. This is all so sad. Three deaths from this one school in such a short period of time.

This is not to say any deaths caused by these nut jobs are sadder than the rest. Just upsetting when it hits close to home.

 

[ASchwa]

So sad to learn today that a young man who graduated from the same graduate school that I attended was a victim of the Brussels attack. His wife, also a fellow graduate, has not been found and I fear for the worst. And just a few weeks ago a current student of this school was stabbed death in Israel by another Muslim extremist. This is all so sad. Three deaths from this one school in such a short period of time.

This is not to say any deaths caused by these nut jobs are sadder than the rest. Just upsetting when it hits close to home.

From what I have read about Taylor Force, it is upsetting that he was murdered. He seemed to be a good person. I'm guessing that your school was Vanderbilt. I live in the NYC metro area, also lived here all my life. I remember before and after 9/11, the sadness and grieving that affected everyone in the metro area. When close to a terrorist attack, from being connected in any way, you can't help feeling the way you do. It makes it personal and scarey, you can almost see yourself or a family member or friend hurt in an incident. I have walked in Jaffa, it really is a beautiful place. So sorry that three people from your graduate school died in such violent ways.

 

[asta]

From what I have read about Taylor Force, it is upsetting that he was murdered. He seemed to be a good person. I'm guessing that your school was Vanderbilt. I live in the NYC metro area, also lived here all my life. I remember before and after 9/11, the sadness and grieving that affected everyone in the metro area. When close to a terrorist attack, from being connected in any way, you can't help feeling the way you do. It makes it personal and scarey, you can almost see yourself or a family member or friend hurt in an incident. I have walked in Jaffa, it really is a beautiful place. So sorry that three people from your graduate school died in such violent ways.

The names of the two who were murdered in Brussels are Justin and Stephanie Shults. They were graduates of the Owen Graduate School of Management at Vanderbilt. The confirmation of their deaths was made this afternoon. Their families had been holding out hope for better news.

 

[Unas]

Again, (sigh), these lunatics hide in population centers for the very reason you cite. Get it? They hide behind women and children, and when innocent civilians die, it is a terrible reality of war.
Let's give an example. The Palestinians started launching large and dangerous rockets into Israel a couple years ago in one of their ongoing skirmishes. They were firing these rockets from the roof of a hospital without regard for the possible consequences to their own sick and wounded. The Israelis had no choice but to stop the onslaught of rockets, so they retaliated. The resulting headline "Israelis fire on Palestinian Hospital. Mass casualties". This was pounced on and the Israelis were held completely responsible for the civilian casualties, but who was not blamed?

Good to see you changed your tune and now acknowledge that innocent civilians were killed by actions we took.

 

[mom2rtk]

Good to see you changed your tune and now acknowledge that innocent civilians were killed by actions we took.

So..... not a word about how reprehensible it is to purposely hide behind innocent civilians?

 

[punkin]

Good to see you changed your tune and now acknowledge that innocent civilians were killed by actions we took.

Actually, civilians were killed by th actions the terrorists took by hiding in civilian populations.

 

[UncleMike101]

So..... not a word about how reprehensible it is to purposely hide behind innocent civilians?

Research shows that terror groups have, since time immemorial, hidden behind innocent people to carry our their despicable deeds.
Blaming those who remove the worthless terrorists from the planet for the deaths of the innocents that the terrorists use as shields is popular among some groups of people with an agenda to push.
The attacks in Brussels were yet another attempt by a terror organization to impose their warped agenda on the World.
Those people must be eliminated before they, and their comrades here, can commit any more acts on our soil and murder more innocent people as they did on 9/11 and in other instances which our current leadership refuses to acknowledge as terrorism.

 

[Colleen27]

You must be confusing me with someone who suggested "bombing them". I merely asked how you meet terrorists halfway who believe in a long-held ideology that we in the West are infidels and deserve nothing less than death?

I don't believe we should be meeting militants halfway. I do believe we should be doing what we can to deny them recruiting power, which includes reaching out to Muslim communities within our borders and around the world and taking a much more cautious approach to the use of force on foreign soil. Because one accidental bombing of a Doctors Without Borders hospitals provides recruiting material for a whole host of terrorist groups.

It's a shame ISIS isn't the only radical Islamic faction we have to deal with. According to Pew Research, somewhere in the neighborhood of 70%-75% of muslims believe Sharia Law should be the law of the land. 40% of those in the Middle East believe it should apply to non-muslims as well. In half the countries researched over 50% believe in cutting off hands for theft, stoning women that committed adultery and executing muslims that convert to another faith.

People with those beliefs will never be compatible with those of us in Western society. That increases your 3,000,000 to about 700,000,000 - but most importantly, we have no idea which 700,000,000.

Source?

The Brussels terror network was spread across the so-called ‘croissant pauvre’, or ‘poor crescent’ of Brussels, a Rorschach-shaped area of deprived neighbourhoods.

These included Molenbeek and Schaerbeek, where members of the terror cell operated, and Laeken, where some of Salah Abdeslam’s accomplices grew up.

The district of Molenbeek, dubbed the ‘crucible of terror’, is 40 per cent Muslim and has 40 per cent youth unemployment.

This is the sort of thing that many of us less "hawkish" posters are talking about. How can we sit back and blame the Islamic religion and say there's nothing that can be done to prevent radicalization in the face of information like this? 40 percent youth unemployment. Widespread cultural and economic discrimination against those of Arabic descent. A population whose history in Belgium is not terribly different from that of African-Americans in the US, but who have had no national civil rights movement to advance in the direction of equality. People who feel powerless and desperate do terrible things. And while we probably can't do anything to dissuade the true believers, the leaders of these movements, there is plenty we can do to change things in fertile recruiting grounds like Molenbeek so that young people don't have the kind of anger and hopelessness that terrorist organizations prey on.

 

[Disneychick75]

This isn't a video game, it's real life. We need to look at the reason it's happening in the first place and figure out how to meet half way. Our big bombs vs their small bombs. Same.

Didn't someone say it was because they need education and jobs? :/
The reason the terrorists perform violent acts is because they are fanatics who believe their way is the only way. Ta da, you're welcome.

 

[mom2rtk]

Didn't someone say it was because they need education and jobs? :/

State Department spokeswoman Marie Harf. If I'm not mistaken, she has since been promoted.

 

[Disneychick75]

State Department spokeswoman Marie Harf. If I'm not mistaken, she has since been promoted.

The Peter Principle on steroids

 

[asta]

I don't believe we should be meeting militants halfway. I do believe we should be doing what we can to deny them recruiting power, which includes reaching out to Muslim communities within our borders and around the world and taking a much more cautious approach to the use of force on foreign soil. Because one accidental bombing of a Doctors Without Borders hospitals provides recruiting material for a whole host of terrorist groups.



Source?



This is the sort of thing that many of us less "hawkish" posters are talking about. How can we sit back and blame the Islamic religion and say there's nothing that can be done to prevent radicalization in the face of information like this? 40 percent youth unemployment. Widespread cultural and economic discrimination against those of Arabic descent. A population whose history in Belgium is not terribly different from that of African-Americans in the US, but who have had no national civil rights movement to advance in the direction of equality. People who feel powerless and desperate do terrible things. And while we probably can't do anything to dissuade the true believers, the leaders of these movements, there is plenty we can do to change things in fertile recruiting grounds like Molenbeek so that young people don't have the kind of anger and hopelessness that terrorist organizations prey on.

The problem with this line of thinking is that it sounds like extortion. Kind of like Islamic extremists are telling the world you give us more jobs, more recognition or we will come to you, set off bombs and kill you.

 

[mom2rtk]

The problem with this line of thinking is that it sounds like extortion. Kind of like Islamic extremists are telling the world you give us more jobs, more recognition or we will come to you, set off bombs and kill you.

Many of those terrorists come from families of means. This is not about jobs.

 

[Colleen27]

The problem with this line of thinking is that it sounds like extortion. Kind of like Islamic extremists are telling the world you give us more jobs, more recognition or we will come to you, set off bombs and kill you.

Really? I think it is more a question of natural consequences - history is full of examples of the desperate things that people who feel a lack of opportunity will do. Poverty, high unemployment, and discrimination bring out the worst in human nature. I don't think there's any "extortion" in recognizing that fact, any more than there is in recognizing how those same things play into the choice to join a gang or engage in other destructive behaviours.

 

[L&Lfan]

Many of those terrorists come from families of means. This is not about jobs.

It's a shame Marie Harf doesn't feel that way!

 

[Teresa Pitman]

These terrible attacks are so frightening. I am supposed to be speaking at a conference this fall in the UK, and I had thought I might take advantage of having my airfare paid to England and back to travel on to Europe for some vacation time. Now I am rethinking that.

To me, this is the downside of religion. I know that many people find it comforting and helpful in their lives, but religion by its very nature allows people to believe that it is acceptable - even desirable - to do things that logically would be unjustifiable because they believe it is what their god wants them to do. So people justified the Crusades and the Inquisition and the killing of women they thought were witches through their religious beliefs. People have also used their religion to deny inter-racial marriage and the marriage of same-sex couples. And now we have another group of religious people who find verses in their religious texts that convince them their god wants them to be killing people who don't share their beliefs.

And any attempt at a logical, rational discussion just falls apart because religion is about faith. You can say "but this makes no sense because a, b and c" and the response is "I believe this is what god wants me to do."

 

[TLSnell1981]

No need to go back that far, look what happened to the Dixie Chicks!

Who?

 

[TLSnell1981]

This isn't about religion, rather religion is "used" as an excuse. It's about power, control....and money."Everybody wants to rule the world" Some things never change.

 

[UncleMike101]

These terrible attacks are so frightening. I am supposed to be speaking at a conference this fall in the UK, and I had thought I might take advantage of having my airfare paid to England and back to travel on to Europe for some vacation time. Now I am rethinking that.

To me, this is the downside of religion. I know that many people find it comforting and helpful in their lives, but religion by its very nature allows people to believe that it is acceptable - even desirable - to do things that logically would be unjustifiable because they believe it is what their god wants them to do. So people justified the Crusades and the Inquisition and the killing of women they thought were witches through their religious beliefs. People have also used their religion to deny inter-racial marriage and the marriage of same-sex couples. And now we have another group of religious people who find verses in their religious texts that convince them their god wants them to be killing people who don't share their beliefs.

And any attempt at a logical, rational discussion just falls apart because religion is about faith. You can say "but this makes no sense because a, b and c" and the response is "I believe this is what god wants me to do."

This is the downside of human nature, not of religion.
It's the nature of our species to use whatever is at hand to promote our goals.
Many weak people throughout the ages have used God as their reason perform all manner of evil upon their fellow humans.
That doesn't negate the existence of God or mean that religion as an institution is invalid.
It merely points out that Mankind is a flawed species and therefore will use religion, or anything else at hand for that matter, to attain their wants and needs.
The problem is further exacerbated by the presence of Tribalism.
Our tribe/religion is threatened by their tribe/religion.
Even within a religion it is a festering infection.
Ask a group of Shiites and a group of Sunnis who's interpretation of the Quran is the correct one.
Just don't stand between them as they begin their "discussion" or you may end up dead.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I think it is more a question of natural consequences - history is full of examples of the desperate things that people who feel a lack of opportunity will do. Poverty, high unemployment, and discrimination bring out the worst in human nature.

It seems to be far more complex than that, unfortunately.

Olivier Roy is a professor at the European University Institute in Florence and the author of “Globalized Islam.” He has studied jihadist radicalization extensively. Here's what he has to say about it. From The Washington Post:

Why young people become jihadists, according to a top expert

"The threat to the U.S. from the Islamic State is made scarier because it isn’t necessarily limited by geography. The terrorist organization is concentrated in Syria and Iraq, to be sure, but people have become radicalized and taken up the mantle of the Islamic State all over the world, including, with tragic consequences, in San Bernardino, Calif.

Some scholars argue nations must take a rigorous approach to understanding how people become radicalized — and, just as importantly, that religion itself is not the main motivation.

A substantial number of radical Islamic terrorists are recent converts who know surprisingly little about Islam, Olivier Roy, a professor at the European University Institute in Italy and well-known analyst of Islamist terrorism, said in a recent lecture, where he attempted to lay out "a scientific perspective on the causes/circumstances" of people joining radical groups.

"Radicalisation is a youth revolt against society, articulated on an Islamic religious narrative of jihad," he says. "It is not the uprising of a Muslim community victim of poverty and racism: only young people join, including converts who did not share the 'sufferings' of Muslims in Europe. These rebels without a cause find in jihad a 'noble' and global cause, and are consequently instrumentalised by a radical organisation (Al Qaeda, ISIS), that has a strategic agenda."

In one famous case, two 22-year-old British men who pled guilty to terrorism offenses in 2014 had ordered “Islam for Dummies,” “The Koran for Dummies” and “Arabic for Dummies” to read before they left for Syria. The two men were inspired by al Qaeda materials online, and used the Internet to talk with other radicals abroad. It was one of the men’s mothers that contacted detectives shortly after the pair left for Syria, and they were arrested as they returned to Britain in 2014.

According to Roy, religion comes into play in radicalization mostly because it offers the person a narrative of restructuring their life in line with the truth and the good -- they can say their actions are for a higher purpose. In reality, though, their motivations are usually personal.

No comprehensive data exists on the militants who have joined the Islamic State and other organizations, but Roy has analyzed individual stories of the path to radicalization – saying that we must first understand radicalization before we can hope to prevent or reverse it.

In the lecture in November, Roy was speaking about Islamic radicals in Europe, but the conclusions he draws hold valuable lessons for the U.S. Here are eight other findings about how people are radicalized:

1. Radicalism is mostly a youth movement, and a rebellious one.

Most of those who have been radicalized are young, and their behavior is often a kind of rebellion against their parents and relatives. It is articulated as a religious narrative of jihad, but is actually a revolt against society, Roy says.

Radicalization typically happens through networks of friends or peers, outside of the person’s family or the Muslim community more broadly. Many Europeans radicals have a history of delinquency or drug dealing, Roy says, but few have a history of political or religious militancy.

2. Few radicals come directly from the Middle East.

Most European radicals have a Muslim background, but few are themselves immigrants from the Middle East, says Roy. Most are second-generation Muslims, while others are converts.

According to figures from Charles Kurzman at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, 35 percent of those charged for jihadist terrorist plots in the U.S. since Sept. 11 were converts to Islam.

3. The Islamic State is very much a modern movement.

While the Islamic State may seem like something out of a previous millennium, with its barbaric ideas of justice, attitudes toward women, and call to restore an ancient caliphate, their methods are very modern.

The Islamic State has inspired what Roy calls “a virtual Ummah” – a global and abstract idea created by the group’s powerful media and propaganda apparatus. Some radicals in far-off places are part of this virtual society, but not a real one: They have radicalized themselves through the internet and follow agendas that don’t have much connection with what’s actually going on in Syria and Iraq.

4. Most radicals are motivated by the desire to be a hero, to do violence or get revenge.

Roy says that most of those who are radicalized are fascinated with the idea of becoming part of a “small brotherhood of super-heroes who avenge the Muslim Ummah” [meaning community or nation].

Many are motivated by the promise of capturing headlines. Ordinary murders rarely receive that much coverage, but those that are branded “terrorism” tend to be reported prominently.

Their desire for suicide or revenge for the real or perceived marginalization of the Muslim community is often stronger than any utopian desire to build a different society. “Radicals are neither happy nor funny people,” Roy says.

5. Radicals typically have little connection with the Muslim “community.”

In fact, their radicalization usually happens as a reaction against the Muslim community, imams and their parents. Radicals aren’t considered any kind of vanguard or representative of a larger disgruntled community; instead, many have broken with their families, and consider the larger Muslim community to be traitors.

6. Which means it’s mostly pointless to charge the Muslim community with de-radicalizing radicals.

Radical movements by their nature are a rejection of moderate Islam, meaning moderate Muslims generally have little influence. The connections between radicals and the rest of the Muslim “community” is usually loose or nonexistent, says Roy.

As a result, asking the Muslim community to help de-radicalize these people doesn’t make a lot of sense.

7. We should be careful about how we describe the connections between radicals and the larger Muslim community.

Roy’s analysis suggests that the tendency to paint Muslims broadly as terrorists – besides being factually inaccurate – could encourage more radicalization. Lumping all Muslims together as terrorists feed into a story of persecution and revenge that motivates radicalization in the first place.

8. What we need to do is to subvert the Islamic State’s standing among radicals and potential radicals.

Beyond increasing our intelligence capacity, Roy says, we need to debunk the myth that radical terrorists are heroes and subvert the idea that the Islamic State is successful and impervious to our attacks.

What’s more, we need to foster the idea that Islam is a normal part of society, not a dangerous or oppressed minority. “Instead of ‘exceptionalizing,’ we should ‘normalize,’” says Roy."