Tell me again, why isn't this a hate crime?

With regard to the corpse, I was under the impression that an investigation is still done whether or not the criminal is dead, therefore it is still relevant. IF he killed because he hated a particular group THEN it is a hate crime, and not classifying it as such is wrong... unless the whole designation is done away with. The only irrefutable point made is that the guy is dead. IF being dead means it wasn't a crime THEN the classification is irrelevant. IF that is not the case THEN it is still relevant. It's pretty plain to me.

Relevant to who? I think that's my question.

One of the things I remember from law school criminal law courses is that the modern goal of our criminal law system is threefold: punishment and rehabilitation of the offender, deterrence of future crimes, and restitution to the victim and society. Because our offender in this case is dead, punishment and rehabilitation are off the table. Thus, the classification of the crime as a hate crime must somehow be relevant to either deterring future crimes or providing some sort of restitution to the victims and society. In this particular instance, I don't see how either of those goals are furthered by arguing over crime classification ex post mortem.

Perhaps the debate results from a difference in definition of "hate crime." My recollection from law school is that a "hate crime" classification is only relevant in the context of maximum sentencing. The United States Congress (and a majority of states) has decided that crimes against certain specific groups should be subject to special deterring measures because of the nature of the crimes (a lot of which has to do with history) and because of the tendency of these crimes to inflict psychological and emotional damage beyond an ordinary crime (I am not restricting this to murder; a simple assault can be a "hate crime" in some contexts). Because of this decision, conviction of a hate crime element drastically increases maximum sentencing for the perpetrator.

It is unclear whether this particular crime fits Pennsylvania's definition of a "hate crime" (even if it were actually relevant re sentencing the criminal). I don't know their definition, but it's likely that it's not as simple as: "If he did this because he hated women, it's a hate crime." Because the word "hate" can be so subjective, courts and legislatures have had a difficult time crafting definitions of hate that justify the stiff increases in penalty.

You seem to say that since other posters are saying that the perpetrator is dead and will thus receive no earthly penalty for his actions, that this must mean that these posters think his actions weren't a crime. That's not the case at all. I don't mean to put words in other posters' mouths, but this seems to be the logic they're using:

IF the legal (and thus relevant) definition of "hate crime" means an enhancer to an ordinary crime that results in larger penalties, THEN the definition of "hate crime" is only relevant as it is applied to the individual who perpetrated the crime (and may thus be subject to the larger penalties). IF the individual who perpetrated the crime is dead, THEN the state cannot prosecute him. IF the state cannot prosecute him, THEN the legal definition of "hate crime" becomes practically irrelevant because it is only relevant if it can be applied to the perpetrator of the crime (and it can't because he's dead).

If this logic wins out, then classifying it as a hate crime only matters for purposes of keeping score. This doesn't mean what the guy did wasn't a crime (or even a "hate crime"). It means he's no longer subject to the legal definition of "hate crime" because he's dead.

I suppose one could make an argument that the victims of the crime may somehow benefit from the classification of the crime as a hate crime, but beyond the fact that the rules associated with legal "hate crimes" are generally aimed at defendants and not at victims, because the perpetrator is dead he can't make any sort of restitution because of his crime.

Perhaps the classification is somehow useful to instruct people on other ways to solve their problems than by resorting to this kind of crime. If that's the case, then sure it's relevant for that. I just don't know that it's worth spending taxpayer dollars on deciding whether a guy who can't be punished was guilty of a hate crime because it could be useful in an after-school special.
 
IMO, there are no "Hate crimes". This was premeditated murder, plain and simple. Judges and juries have the ability to weigh extenuating circumstances, such as motivation for the crime in determining sentencing. "Hate crime" legislation elevates the protection of one group over another. Whether that is based on race, religion, affiliation, gender, age, sexual orientation, or whatever, it shouldn't matter. A crime is a crime.

I have some experience in this, being hip-deep in the Matthew Sheppard case. I remember testimony from the mother of a child who had been murdered by a sex offender. Under hate crimes legislation introduced, people of race, religion and sexual orientation received "special protection" or "special penalties" for crimes committed against because they were a member of that group. Where was the special penalty for the person who raped and murdered her 6-year old daughter, she asked? She was targeted because she was a child. Why was he given life in prison, but the Matthew Sheppard killers would be tried for the death penalty?

I personally found that once you try to all identify all the groups that a person may "hate", that you end up with a lot of groups that is called "Everybody" - That takes us back to providing laws to protect everybody and punish all offenders equally. But that isn't politically correct.
 
I was under the impression that extenuating circumstances, such as mental illness, alter the way the criminal is reprimanded. I have never heard of a situation where the definition of the crime itself is altered by this sort of thing.

Is an assault not an assault if the person who did it isn't found to be of sound mind & body?

I don't think this underlying assumption is correct.
 
Relevant to who? I think that's my question.

One of the things I remember from law school criminal law courses is that the modern goal of our criminal law system is threefold: punishment and rehabilitation of the offender, deterrence of future crimes, and restitution to the victim and society. Because our offender in this case is dead, punishment and rehabilitation are off the table. Thus, the classification of the crime as a hate crime must somehow be relevant to either deterring future crimes or providing some sort of restitution to the victims and society. In this particular instance, I don't see how either of those goals are furthered by arguing over crime classification ex post mortem.


Perhaps the classification is somehow useful to instruct people on other ways to solve their problems than by resorting to this kind of crime. If that's the case, then sure it's relevant for that. I just don't know that it's worth spending taxpayer dollars on deciding whether a guy who can't be punished was guilty of a hate crime because it could be useful in an after-school special.

Since when is it OK to tolerate crimes against women as an acceptable? How come our society does not demand restitution from crimes against women? You rattle off ideas that accept violence against women as a foregone conclusion ... don't you see that? I am a part of society and I can't stand that I don't feel safe because of crimes against women. Are you going to tell me that my own fears that are underscored by crimes of hate against women are not valid because..... well why exactly? You don't really explain that. I am a part of society, where is my restitution?

Also, I do not think your dismissal of this topic into the realm of "after school special" is particularly logical when 50% of the world and most victims of violent crime of a particular nature happen to be female. And yeah, I do think it's worth our tax money, at least my portion.
 

I was under the impression that extenuating circumstances, such as mental illness, alter the way the criminal is reprimanded. I have never heard of a situation where the definition of the crime itself is altered by this sort of thing.

Is an assault not an assault if the person who did it isn't found to be of sound mind & body?

I don't think this underlying assumption is correct.
Murder charges cannot be brought against a person incapable of understanding the consequences of their actions. This is why children are treated differently under the law. A person can be killed by another without having been "murdered", even if the actions that led up to the events were planned out ahead of time.
 
Since when is it OK to tolerate crimes against women as an acceptable?...
:confused3

This is more than a small stretch, don't you think? If anything, our society is MORE protective of women. Do you think that the two travelers held in N Korea would have been treated the same had they been men? Do you think that as many would have followed the story or demanded that our government work to obtain their release? :confused3
 
He's dead, so I'm not sure it matters as he can't be charged with anything.

But I always thought "hate" crimes were crimes against minorities for their minority status.

I didn't think he "hated" woman--but I haven't read all his stuff. I thought he was down and out, depressed and lonely and sought revenge, not b/c he hated women--but b/c he felt that it wasn't right that no one liked him.

He was deeply disturbed and the crime was more of a mental health issue/revenge than it was hating an entire group of people due to a single characteristic.

This isn't to say that it should or should not be a hate crime. Just my understanding of why it may not be classified as such.

Contrast the crime to the man who killed the security guard at the holocaust museum. He harboured a deep hatred to jews and denies the holocaust.

Just not the same motive.
 
You want a check? I am still not sure what you are after? :confused3

That's easy, either include everyone or don't do it at all.

I do not think incompetent adults are equated with children in the eyes of the law. If a person isn't right in the head they might be in a better position to negotiate a plea to a lesser offense, but I do not believe their classification as such alters the crimes they can be convicted of by default. I think this is a matter of practice as opposed to a rule of law. If it says somewhere that people need to meet specific personal criteria before being charged with such & such I'd be very interested to read it.
 
I have to say that this is the most confusing thread I've read in a while. First, I haven't seen any evidence that this crime has been determined not to be a hate crime (under the Pennsylvania laws which appear to include hatred based on gender as a possible category of hate crimes).

The primary purpose of hate crimes designation is to reduce the frequency of hate crimes. This is typically done by increasing the penalties for those that commit them. In this case, declaring or not declaring the crime a hate crime will have no effect on punishing the killer. I can't think of any deterrent effect either.

It is possible that the designation will matter for statistical record keeping. That might help for trend analysis or something. For it to be a hate crime in Penn, the perp had to be motivated to commit the crime by the characteristics of his victims (in this case, their gender). It seems like it fits the definition to me, but I'd be hesitant to make that determination without a better understanding of the facts.

I was under the impression that extenuating circumstances, such as mental illness, alter the way the criminal is reprimanded. I have never heard of a situation where the definition of the crime itself is altered by this sort of thing.

I don't know whether the crime gets "counted" differently, but it is definitely possible for a perpetrator to be found not guilty because of insanity. Probably the most famous case was the guy who shot Reagan (Hinckley, wasn't it?). He was found not guilty - no conviction for any crime at all and no punishment. Instead, he was remanded to a psych hospital where he still lives today.

Since when is it OK to tolerate crimes against women as an acceptable? How come our society does not demand restitution from crimes against women? You rattle off ideas that accept violence against women as a foregone conclusion ... don't you see that? I am a part of society and I can't stand that I don't feel safe because of crimes against women. Are you going to tell me that my own fears that are underscored by crimes of hate against women are not valid because..... well why exactly? You don't really explain that. I am a part of society, where is my restitution?

Also, I do not think your dismissal of this topic into the realm of "after school special" is particularly logical when 50% of the world and most victims of violent crime of a particular nature happen to be female. And yeah, I do think it's worth our tax money, at least my portion.

I can't find anywhere in this thread or any civil society conversation where anyone is advocating tolerance for crimes committed against women. I can't think of any place in the developed world where criminal penalties are lower for people permitting crimes against women. As far as who is more often victimized by crime, men are murdered are three times the rate that women are in the US.

To help me understand the point of this discussion, I'd like to know a few things from the OP. First, what makes you think this will not be determined to be a hate crime? Second, what do you want done differently in this case? The murderer is dead. What else do you want done?
 
This thread is really pointless. Obviously the OP wanted to start a political thread about hate crimes - so used this tragedy as an excuse. No one, anywhere, any place has said that this would not be considered a hate crime if the shooter had survivied. Hate crime legislation varies by state - it has been shown that PA does include gender in their hate crimes law - so under PA law this could have been charged as a hate crime.

So tell me again - who is saying this isn't a hate crime?
 
This thread is really pointless. Obviously the OP wanted to start a political thread about hate crimes - so used this tragedy as an excuse. No one, anywhere, any place has said that this would not be considered a hate crime if the shooter had survivied. Hate crime legislation varies by state - it has been shown that PA does include gender in their hate crimes law - so under PA law this could have been charged as a hate crime.

So tell me again - who is saying this isn't a hate crime?

Oh crap, now you've done it. Now you'll be labelled a pot-stirrer and troublemaker, just like I was. Welcome to the dark side. :scared1:
 















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