Teachers... why?

[Principessa Alba]

Did I miss something? Who was forced to urinate on themselves?

"Respect" does not equal "never speaking unless spoken to". Surely there is some middle ground between cowering in fear of the teacher and just up and walking out of a room.

Just this past Friday I had to take my 1st grade son a change of clothes because he had an accident. Not because he was forced to pee on himself by a cruel teacher, but because he's a kid who waits til the last possible second.

He raised his hand, but the teacher, busy with other things, didn't see him in time. In that situation, a polite "Excuse me Miss Smith" would have solved the problem and been respectful.

I also reminded my son that the entire class is given several bathroom breaks per day, and that he needs to use those breaks, even if he doesn't think he has to go at that time.

The bathroom issue was a real hot button in our school. With my oldest, I even joined in - "how dare a teacher not allow a child to use the bathroom!"

But the reality of the situation was - the kids are given bathroom breaks as a class, approximately every 2 1/2 hours. Barring some sort of medical problem or illness, a child should be able to hold it for 2.5 hours. It's not as if they are drinking gallons of water in class all the while.

So the "no bathroom breaks during class time" rule is really not as horrible as it sounds.

Although again - I must have missed the part about children being forced to pee on themselves.

Anyway, I don't equate an employee-boss relationship (two adults) with a teacher-student relationship (an adult and a child). I certainly treat my own children differently than I treat my employees.

I really am trying to understand where you are coming from. You seem to think there is some kind of sense of entitlement when it comes to someone needing to leave the room. You'd better believe I feel entitled to go to the bathroom if I feel there is something I need to attend to ( I can think of lots of things that feeling the need to stay in my seat would cause a discomfort.)

I don't think there is any need to evaluate the kids reason. It's really none of our business. Telling a human being that they need to sit still when they've asked to be excused is just disrepectful. Unless he's the kind of kid who's made some kind of habit of asking to go and then wandering the halls or something. Otherwise, kids learn respect and courtesy from people who are respectful and courteous.

And bottom line, not my problem. My kid has to go, they should go.

 

[MrsPete]

But they always knew that it was their decision and their call, not the teachers.

You're arguing that it's always the students' decision?

Even if that student has proven himself untrustworthy in the past? Even if the parents or the office has specifically told that teacher to keep that student in class for whatever reason? Even if it's during an exam or a state test, and that student leaving the classroom could potentially invalidate the test for the school, costing large amounts of money and forcing students to attend school an extra day? Even if it's during a lockdown drill and one student in the hall could lead to the school being forced to re-do the drill, or perhaps even being put on report by the officials who are there to grade the administration on its adherence to the emergency plans?

There are times when teachers are in the wrong.

There are also times when the teacher has more information than the student, and NO ONE should be in the halls for any reason.

 

[noodleknitter]

Just an example of a personal emergency. Whereas you write them all off as frivolous, selfish issues, many aren't. And, as I said, teachers aren't impervious to making mistakes. This may have been one, and may not.

As I said, there is a lot to be said for using courtesy and common sense.

 

[Shere_Khan]

Why did the cool kid and cry baby comment need to be added.

I have also been wondering this the whole time. I just don't think that him being cool has anything to do with him being upset or the teacher saying no. As if to say cool kids don't normally get upset or cry. I"m sure the kid was upset and maybe for valid reasons, but he had been allowed to phone home several times that day. I think if it had been a real emergency someone from home or the office would have pulled him out.

 

[MrsPete]

The bathroom issue was a real hot button in our school. With my oldest, I even joined in - "how dare a teacher not allow a child to use the bathroom!"

But the reality of the situation was - the kids are given bathroom breaks as a class, approximately every 2 1/2 hours. Barring some sort of medical problem or illness, a child should be able to hold it for 2.5 hours. It's not as if they are drinking gallons of water in class all the while.

So the "no bathroom breaks during class time" rule is really not as horrible as it sounds.

Yep, when parents have the information, schools don't look so prison-like. In my school, kids have a 10 minute break every 90 minutes, PLUS they all have a 30-minute lunch around mid-day. Except for the occasional sickness, they should be able to take care of things during those breaks.

The big problem is that kids want to use their 10-minute break between classes to socialize, then they want to use MY CLASS TIME to do necessary things like use the bathroom and make phone calls. When a couple kids ask for each thing, pretty soon kids are here and there, and when they come back in, I have to catch each one of them up on what's just gone on in class.

 

[Principessa Alba]

You're arguing that it's always the students' decision?

Even if that student has proven himself untrustworthy in the past?.

I know these discussions can get complicated and it's hard to remember who said what, but if you'll go back, you'll see that I said a) unless the kid has asked alot before and then they found him just wandering the halls and I also said b) that my kids knew I wasn't going to be backing them up if they were leaving the classroom for something frivolous. You don't "cry wolf" in other words.

Most of these debates I can kind of see the other side, but this one I just can't. I can't imagine why a teacher would tell a kid, unless the kid has "cried wolf too many times" that he can't take care of an emergency (be it bathroom or whatever.)

And you guys are free to make whatever rules you want for your kids, but the rule in our house was, ask politely, but if they say no and it's really important, say, sorry, but I really need to go.

 

[Bob Slydell]

I don't think there is any need to evaluate the kids reason. It's really none of our business. Telling a human being that they need to sit still when they've asked to be excused is just disrepectful.

It's not our business to evaluate the kid's reason, but it is the teacher's business (and his/her job). And knowing that there's a time and a place when you should sit down and be quiet is part of being a human being, IMO.

Nobody has enough details to know whether or not this teacher made the right decision, but nothing in the OP's story indicates to me that the teacher did anything different than what most teacher's would have done.

 

[va32h]

I really am trying to understand where you are coming from. You seem to think there is some kind of sense of entitlement when it comes to someone needing to leave the room. You'd better believe I feel entitled to go to the bathroom if I feel there is something I need to attend to ( I can think of lots of things that feeling the need to stay in my seat would cause a discomfort.)

I don't think there is any need to evaluate the kids reason. It's really none of our business. Telling a human being that they need to sit still when they've asked to be excused is just disrepectful. Unless he's the kind of kid who's made some kind of habit of asking to go and then wandering the halls or something. Otherwise, kids learn respect and courtesy from people who are respectful and courteous.

And bottom line, not my problem. My kid has to go, they should go.

If a child feels that they are free to come and go from their classroom and the teacher has no need to evaluate their reasons - heck yes, that is a sense of entitlement.

You are an adult. Adults have certain priveliges that children do not. One of them being - the need to not have to explain themselves. Although I would hope that as a point of courtesy, you explain why you are leaving the room instead of just turning your back on people.

Children are not adults. Children are not supposed to be free to come and go as they please. Honestly, when your children lived at home, did you never require them to explain themselves to you? Were they free to walk out the door at nine am and go wherever they wanted and stay away for as long as they wanted?

I am going to guess that no - you didn't tell your 8 year old to have a nice day and go wherever they want and come home whenever the mood struck them. Why is that different than a teacher expecting her students to stay in class and not just walk out the door whenever they feel like it.

Of course it is the teacher's business why a student is getting up and walking out of her class.

Far beyond the issue of a child using the phone, are you seriously suggesting that it is none of the teacher's business what the children are doing while they are in school? Are children accountable to no one? What are parents and teachers for, if nothing the child does is any of our business?

Your last comment sums up this attitude nicely. MY child should be allowed to do whatever they want and it is not my problem if what they want disrupts somebody else. Because it's all about ME and MY KID.

And if all the kids in class learn this lesson at home - what is the teacher supposed to do? Read a book until the kids wrap up their phone calls and decide to head on back to class?

 

[Principessa Alba]

If a child feels that they are free to come and go from their classroom and the teacher has no need to evaluate their reasons - heck yes, that is a sense of entitlement.

You are an adult. Adults have certain priveliges that children do not. One of them being - the need to not have to explain themselves. Although I would hope that as a point of courtesy, you explain why you are leaving the room instead of just turning your back on people.

Children are not adults. Children are not supposed to be free to come and go as they please. Honestly, when your children lived at home, did you never require them to explain themselves to you? Were they free to walk out the door at nine am and go wherever they wanted and stay away for as long as they wanted?

I am going to guess that no - you didn't tell your 8 year old to have a nice day and go wherever they want and come home whenever the mood struck them. Why is that different than a teacher expecting her students to stay in class and not just walk out the door whenever they feel like it.

Of course it is the teacher's business why a student is getting up and walking out of her class.

Far beyond the issue of a child using the phone, are you seriously suggesting that it is none of the teacher's business what the children are doing while they are in school? Are children accountable to no one? What are parents and teachers for, if nothing the child does is any of our business?

Your last comment sums up this attitude nicely. MY child should be allowed to do whatever they want and it is not my problem if what they want disrupts somebody else. Because it's all about ME and MY KID.

And if all the kids in class learn this lesson at home - what is the teacher supposed to do? Read a book until the kids wrap up their phone calls and decide to head on back to class?

Wow you are angry about this! Sorry, yeah, my kids should go if they have to go. They managed to live life with this philosophy and stay out of prison!

Thing is, I'll have to ask them, but I don't remember they ever had to do it. They just knew that I respected their judgement enough to say that it was up to them, not someone else, if they needed to leave the room.

I keep saying that, and thinking, that sounds so reasonable, and you keep telling me how crazy it is! We'll have to agree to disagree. And you raise your kid however you like! I still wouldn't do it any different.

 

[va32h]

Wow you are angry about this! Sorry, yeah, my kids should go if they have to go. They managed to live life with this philosophy and stay out of prison!

Thing is, I'll have to ask them, but I don't remember they ever had to do it. They just knew that I respected their judgement enough to say that it was up to them, not someone else, if they needed to leave the room.

I keep saying that, and thinking, that sounds so reasonable, and you keep telling me how crazy it is! We'll have to agree to disagree. And you raise your kid however you like! I still wouldn't do it any different.

No, I'm not angry. I'm incredulous more than anything else.

I also think it sounds perfectly reasonable that children should not be allowed to walk in and out of a classroom at will, and that it isn't any of the teacher's business where they are going.

I did not suggest that you were crazy or that your children were in prison.

But you didn't answer my question. Were your children allowed to come and go from your home without having to explain themselves? Could they skip school entirely because they felt a need to, and did you in turn feel it was none of your business to question them?

 

[Principessa Alba]

.

But you didn't answer my question. Were your children allowed to come and go from your home without having to explain themselves? Could they skip school entirely because they felt a need to, and did you in turn feel it was none of your business to question them?

Come and go fron my house? Where did I say that the kid could leave school without telling anyone what he was doing?

My kids had privacy in our home. They were at the dinner table and wanted to be excused, no, I didn't want a detailed description of what they were going to do. Now, if we had heard them on the phone talking about the prom or something we would have said, get back here, and then maybe the next time said, "You can go as long as you aren't making a silly phone call."

We all just tried to treat each other with respect. A person asks to be exused, they are excused, and then they try to get back as quickly as possible. I they have to leave for good, there should be some kind of explanation, but again, we don't need to hear, "I've had diarrea all day and I need to go home" ; do we?

 

[Wishing on a star]

Now, I am known as a 'teacher basher' here. Never mind that, once again, just a few days go, I actually agreed with the teachers on one thread!!!

But, I have to say: Ohhh good lord... another teacher-student-parent thread out of control with completely ridicuous exaggerations and assumptions on BOTH sides.

First, about the latest comments about a child leaving the home. GET REAL!!! We were never talking about a child leaving the school, or wandering around the halls at will. The child obviously had some issues and asked to go to the OFFICE. The teacher would have notified the office that this student was on the way down, and the student would NOT have been free to just do as they please. I could never imagine any school not having some kind of a hall-pass system in place to track students.

If my child has an issue, a teacher is NOT the final call. The staff at the office is the final call. The Guidance Counselor, Nurse, Principal, WHOMEVER, should be the one to handle it. If the child is obviously having an issue, he is definately not learning anything, and the situation is disturbing the classroom. He SHOULD be sent to the office. (The OP's child definately seemed to feel disturbed/concerned about what had happened. Enough to come home and discuss it with the OP.)

As I said, I am with those parents who will instruct my child that if they ever have a REAL problem, that they are to go to the office and to ask to call me (or for the school to call me). No teacher or school has the right to hold my child hostage, or to expect my child to have a complete breakdown in order to be excused.

If my child did indeed have a real problem and went to the office, and the Nurse, Guidance Counselor, Principal, or whomever, FAILED to call me as the childs parent. I would have a HUGE issue with that.

I am the parent.
The school is not a prison.

 

[Principessa Alba]

Now, I am known as a 'teacher basher' here. Never mind that, once again, just a few days go, I actually agreed with the teachers on one thread!!!

But, I have to say: Ohhh good lord... another teacher-student-parent thread out of control with completely ridicuous exaggerations and assumptions on BOTH sides.

First, about the latest comments about a child leaving the home. GET REAL!!! We were never talking about a child leaving the school, or wandering around a will. The child obviously had some issues and asked to go to the OFFICE.

If my child has an issue, a teacher is NOT the final call. The staff at the office is the final call. The Guidance Counselor, Nurse, Principal, WHOMEVER, should be the one to handle it. If the child is obviously having an issue, he is definately not learning anything, and the situation is disturbing the classroom. He SHOULD be sent to the office.

As I said, I am with those parents who will instruct my child that if they every have a REAL problem, that they are to go to the office and to ask to call me (or for the school to call me) No teacher or school has the right to hold my child hostage, or to expect my child to have a complete breakdown in order to be excused.

If my child did indeed have a real problem and to the office, and the Nurse, Guidance Counselor, Principal, or whomever, FAILED to call me as the childs parent. I would have a HUGE issue with that.

I am the parent.
The school is not a prison.

Yes, well said!

By the way, I wasn't at all urging my kids to disregard what teachers said on all levels. This came up when my daughter, who has bad eyesight, broke her glasses and the teacher wouldn't let her call home (she was in 4th grade). I said to all my kids, if that ever happens again, apologize and say, I'm sorry, i really need to go to the nurse and call my mom to bring in my other glasses." and then just go. (this would have been a problem for her actually getting to the office without glasses, though!) She shouldn't have been made to sit in a blur all day - I have a problem with blanket rules.

 

[ChrizJen]

You're kidding, right? If one kid was allowed to call home during class, could you imagine the mass exodus of kids running to make calls home?

Did he say what the call was about? Just because something was bugging him? I'm sure it could have waited till school was out.

I say that if it's 7th grade, then the kids aren't likely to be visibly upset unless it's valid. In other words, if it were K or 1st grade, I might think that they just "missed mommy", and wanted to talk to her. But for a 7th grader to be visibly upset and begging to use the phone, I think that it was absolutely unacceptable of the teacher to not allow the call. Teachers are generally smart people, and can make judgement calls on an individual basis as to whether a kid just wants an excuse to be out of class, or if he genuinely needs to be excused.

And gieven that he missed school the next day, I'm not as sure as you are that it should have waited until the end of the day.

 

[Jeafl]

I would not let a student go to the office to call home because I have been instructed not to do so.

I will allow them to use the classroom phone for emergencies such as "I lost my key" or "Soccer practice is cancelled."

If they are ill, they will be sent to the nurse and she will determine if a parent needs to be notified.

If they are having emotional problems to the point of preventing others from learning, they will be sent to the counselor who will determine the best course of action.

Other than that, they belong in the classroom.

If they choose to walk out against my instructions, then they will get a visit to the assistant principal who will determine the appropriate consequence.

These procedures are in place so that I can take care of things of an academic nature. That is the primary goal in the classroom. The needs of one child cannot supercede the needs of the many.

For what it's worth, my daughter is in middle school and brings home a daily report on the injustices of the life of a middle school girl. Girls in middle school are prone to the dramatic and are reactionary. I find that if I remain calm she calms down. If I react and get upset, it feeds her fire. You might do well to consider the source.

I agree 100%

Last week I was in a classroom with a child who asked me repeatedly to go to the office and use the phone. She was not crying, but was pretty insistant that she needed to call home. I told her no as well, and that is as much as the other kids saw.

What they didn't know, is that she asked other teachers to call home and the reason was determined to be that she forgot her homework for another class and without that homework, she would be getting a D in the class which would make her ineligible for the basketball team. Her parents already said they would not bring the homework and to not call again. The office secretary had given me the heads up and told me to NOT send her down again.

Point being, NOBODY knows the whole story but that student and that teacher. I would not even begin to judge either person without knowing all the facts.

 

[va32h]

Come and go fron my house? Where did I say that the kid could leave school without telling anyone what he was doing?

My kids had privacy in our home. They were at the dinner table and wanted to be excused, no, I didn't want a detailed description of what they were going to do. Now, if we had heard them on the phone talking about the prom or something we would have said, get back here, and then maybe the next time said, "You can go as long as you aren't making a silly phone call."

We all just tried to treat each other with respect. A person asks to be exused, they are excused, and then they try to get back as quickly as possible. I they have to leave for good, there should be some kind of explanation, but again, we don't need to hear, "I've had diarrea all day and I need to go home" ; do we?

Well perhaps I am as guilty of leaps of logic as anyone else. Perhaps your analogy of a child leaving the dinner table is more appropriate to a child leaving the classroom than mine was.

The part about it being "none of the teacher's business" is what got to me. It should be the teacher's business why a child wants to leave class, because the teacher needs to evaluate the situation, and she can't do that properly if all the child says is "I have to go to the office and my mom says it's none of your business why."

I guess I am looking at the broader picture - of what it says to a child when their parents give them permission to disregard authority figures when they feel a need to do so.

And you know, that's a legitimate struggle. Any parent who has tried to give their kids the good touch/bad touch talk knows how hard it is to explain the idea behind "you should do what adults tell you, but not if..." and raise a child who is courteous and appropriately respectful to adults, but not vulnerable to manipulation.

But in the specifics of a child needing to leave the classroom - if it is a true emergency, not only is the teacher NOT going to stop them, but she will be helping them. No teacher wants a child to vomit all over themselves in her classroom. Or bleed, or faint, or any other medical emergency.

We are talking about situations where the child feels it's an emergency but the teacher does not agree. In that situation, no I am not going to support my child walking out in defiance of their teacher.

In those situations, I am going to side with the adult. Children are not adults. What they perceive as an emergency is not necessarily an emergency.

 

[Principessa Alba]

We are talking about situations where the child feels it's an emergency but the teacher does not agree. In that situation, no I am not going to support my child walking out in defiance of their teacher.

In those situations, I am going to side with the adult. Children are not adults. What they perceive as an emergency is not necessarily an emergency.

I guess I don't like thinking of it as having sides. I just like thinking in terms of being reasonable. I think (and this has worked in my family, maybe it doesn't for everyone) that showing kids respect goes a long way in teaching it to them. Why not give a kid the benifit of the doubt if there is no reason not to?

Maybe a kid isn't going to vomit all over themselves, but maybe a girl will have to sit there with cramps or worrying if her "protection" is working (to use an eufemism). Or a kid will be in pain for the whole class, or horribly worried about something. I remember being in 8th grade with a teacher with just such a no leaving the class policy and a girl getting up to leave with her white pants a mess because she'd gotten her period.

I agree that kids shouldn't have a blanket OK to come and go as they please, but neither should a teacher so blanketly refuse their request just because she doesn't see vomit (or worse). Sorry to be so gross, but gross things happen to people. And if it's a matter of something gross or uncomfortable happening, you are right - in the end, I don't care what the teacher thinks. I don't think it's their business, things like this.

 

[Dina]

I haven't read all of the responses (actually only read the first 3)-- I'm a high school teacher. I would guess that it's probably school policy-- and she could probably get in trouble for sending a kid down to the office to make a phone call.

That being said, a teacher has to use their own judgement. I have gone against policy in situations like this. Once when a student said they had to call home, I pulled her out to see why. It was during homeroom, and she said she put the stove on to make a cup of tea, then left the house when her ride showed up and forgot to turn the stove off. I let her go down to the office and call home. Another time was a 9th grader at the beginning of the school year-- she was crying for reasons I'm not going to get into. I actually let her use my cell phone to call. I felt her reason justified my action, and if I get in trouble, I get in trouble. Maybe that teacher's not tenured and was afraid to go against policy, or not as much of a sucker as I can be. I don't know

 

[Principessa Alba]

I haven't read all of the responses (actually only read the first 3)-- I'm a high school teacher. I would guess that it's probably school policy-- and she could probably get in trouble for sending a kid down to the office to make a phone call.

That being said, a teacher has to use their own judgement. I have gone against policy in situations like this. Once when a student said they had to call home, I pulled her out to see why. It was during homeroom, and she said she put the stove on to make a cup of tea, then left the house when her ride showed up and forgot to turn the stove off. I let her go down to the office and call home. Another time was a 9th grader at the beginning of the school year-- she was crying for reasons I'm not going to get into. I actually let her use my cell phone to call. I felt her reason justified my action, and if I get in trouble, I get in trouble. Maybe that teacher's not tenured and was afraid to go against policy, or not as much of a sucker as I can be. I don't know

You sound like a great teacher and a nice person. I bet your students love you, and I wish all teachers could be like you.

 

[va32h]

Maybe a kid isn't going to vomit all over themselves, but maybe a girl will have to sit there with cramps or worrying if her "protection" is working (to use an eufemism). Or a kid will be in pain for the whole class, or horribly worried about something. I remember being in 8th grade with a teacher with just such a no leaving the class policy and a girl getting up to leave with her white pants a mess because she'd gotten her period.

Do you really think that if a girl quietly explained to her teacher that her period had started, the teacher would say too bad, sit down? In my experience female teachers are sympathetic, and male teachers too embarrassed - from the minute you say "girl troubles" to say no.

A child in pain is a medical emergency and as I said before - the teacher is going to want to help that child, not allow him to suffer.

In the cases mentioned by Dina, she made a decision based on information that the student gave her.

That's what I said in my earlier post. It is the teacher's business to know why a student wants to leave the room - so they can assess the situation.

I don't see anything wrong with the teacher asking the child to explain why they want to leave the room. "It's really important" is not a sufficient explanation. Giving someone the benefit of the doubt is a good idea in theory, but in a class of 30 kids, not so practical. Let one child leave the room for a really important, unspecified reason, and 29 other kids will subsesquently have their own really important reasons.