Teacher union ARGH!!!!

Oh when did I say no appreciation? If you read the post of how much we have done for this specific teacher- the donation of a kit and helping out setting up and cleaning up. My son's time he volunteered. We thank him all the time. Give gifts at the holidays and year end. My son even helped him at his computer camp- in addition to developing a program that he is using in his class. So don't paint us as the users of a teacher. We are not. We give back to them as well.

But how is all that going to help the guy pay his rent? You want him to put in the time, maybe you should change your tune about supporting a teachers' raise.

It's unbelievable that somebody will complain that the teachers want a raise AND also complain that the teachers won't put in extra time for extra curriculars that they aren't paid to do. If you give the teachers a raise, they might continue to do the extra curriculars for free.
 
The issue with teachers pay varies by area, but in suburban Phila (and in a lot of northern NJ from what I’ve heard) the situation is out of control. (School) Taxes continue to spiral out of control with no end in sight. Our school taxes have increased 36.6% in the last 5 years! The school budget is over 76% teacher and administrator salaries and benefits, which is the driving force. Every contract is the same, the teacher’s union demands increases double what most people get and threaten to strike if they don’t get it. The negotiations are done in secret and passed by the school board without any input from the taxpayers. The average teacher’s salary in our district is $69,302 and they only pay $25/mo for medical. There are a lot of teachers in our district that make over $90K. All the taxpayers ask is that the district cut us a break and only raise taxes by the rate of inflation (around 3% over the last 5 years). I would love to see a teacher’s contract where they’ll take a 2.5% increase and pay $200 per month toward medical. Then there wouldn’t be any outcry. I also don't see teachers leaving to work in the "real world". In our district they get at least 3 applicants for every open position. There is currently legislation in PA to make it illegal for teachers to strike.
 
The issue with teachers pay varies by area, but in suburban Phila (and in a lot of northern NJ from what I’ve heard) the situation is out of control. (School) Taxes continue to spiral out of control with no end in sight. Our school taxes have increased 36.6% in the last 5 years! The school budget is over 76% teacher and administrator salaries and benefits, which is the driving force. Every contract is the same, the teacher’s union demands increases double what most people get and threaten to strike if they don’t get it. The negotiations are done in secret and passed by the school board without any input from the taxpayers. The average teacher’s salary in our district is $69,302 and they only pay $25/mo for medical. There are a lot of teachers in our district that make over $90K. All the taxpayers ask is that the district cut us a break and only raise taxes by the rate of inflation (around 3% over the last 5 years). I would love to see a teacher’s contract where they’ll take a 2.5% increase and pay $200 per month toward medical. Then there wouldn’t be any outcry. I also don't see teachers leaving to work in the "real world". In our district they get at least 3 applicants for every open position. There is currently legislation in PA to make it illegal for teachers to strike.

I'm a teacher in a suburban Phila school district. I don't deny we're well-paid. BUT, you need to recognize that those high salaries are one of the reasons that enable your district to attract at least 3 (I'll bet the figure is actually higher than that) applicants for every opening they have. The more applicants for a position, the more likely it is that your district will be able to hire a highly qualified person for the job. In turn, better teachers generally mean a higher academic standards for the children in your district. As the reputation of the district increases, more and more people want to move there, increasing the value of homes within that district. I'll bet that your home's value has increased pretty close to that 36% in taxes you've been hit with in the past 5 years, if not more. I know mine has increased over 50%, and I'm not in what would be called a wealthy district. BTW...my taxes have not increased 36%, more like 10%.

While contract negotiations are held in private, without input from the taxpayers, they are also held in secret from the rank and file of the union. That's why you vote for your local school board members and the teachers vote for their union leaders; to conduct the business of the school district and union. If you don't think your local school board members are doing a good job running the affairs of the district, then maybe you should campaign against them in the next election.

Additionally, while you may not see teachers leaving their positions for jobs in the "real world", you can attribute that fact to the good salaries your district pays its teachers. The fact of the matter is, that nationally, teachers leave education to work in the "real world" at an alarming rate. Statistically, "teacher retention has become a national crisis...the figures for teacher attrition (those who leave teaching), are even more troubling. An analysis of the most recent data from the National Center for Education Statistics found that approximately a third of America’s new teachers leave teaching sometime during their first three years of teaching." Almost 1/2 within the first five years. (No Dream Denied: A Pledge to America's Children; Summary Report of National Commission on Teaching and America's Future; Hon. James B. Hunt, Jr. Chairman; 2003).

Of course as a teacher, I fail to understand why people have such a hard time paying teachers excellent salaries. People have no qualms about seeking out and paying the best doctors, dentists, and lawyers, but when it comes to educating children (who learn from teachers the skills that allow them to be doctors, dentists, and lawyers), people want the best, but aren't willing to pay for it.
 
Of course as a teacher, I fail to understand why people have such a hard time paying teachers excellent salaries. People have no qualms about seeking out and paying the best doctors, dentists, and lawyers, but when it comes to educating children (who learn from teachers the skills that allow them to be doctors, dentists, and lawyers), people want the best, but aren't willing to pay for it.

You're kidding right? You can't honestly say you don't understand the difference in what you need to know and the training and the intelligence needed to be a Neurosurgeon vs teaching kindergarten! Please.
 

You're kidding right? You can't honestly say you don't understand the difference in what you need to know and the training and the intelligence needed to be a Neurosurgeon vs teaching kindergarten! Please.

I'm absolutely NOT kidding!!!

Neurosurgeons don't generally become neurosurgeons on their own. Where do you think that neurosurgeon learned the basic skills that would be one day be transformed into what was needed to become a neurosurgeon?

I think the answer to that, in most cases, would be from a teacher. Without teachers laying the basic skills and academic foundation, along with organizational and study skills, you can pretty much be sure that we don't have nearly the number of good neurosurgeons that we have today.

Is it possible that you are saying that a kindergarten teacher doesn't have the intelligence to become a neurosurgeon? That's highly presumptuous on your part. Each of us has our own reasons for choosing a specific career. As neurosurgeons have developed skills that most kindergarten teachers don't need, the opposite is also true. Most neurosurgeons don't possess the skills necessary to handle 20 or so 5 year olds all day long & interact with their parents in a way that doesn't crush the children's self-esteem or upset their parents. It doesn't mean those skills can't be developed, just that because of their career choice, they haven't been.

You evidently don't value the role teachers play in the education of every part of society, including the best and brightest.
 
Sorry but I do disagree with you. It is far easier to get into and graduate from college with a teaching degree than a medical degree. Colleges graduate many more teachers than doctors and there are a lot of unemployed teachers walking around-can hardly be said about neurosurgeons. As far as teachers leaving the profession-yeah they can't find jobs! I know very few teachers once they hook a good job in a district that ever leave.

Everyone has their own special talents but this is another problem I have with teachers claiming that their job is so hard and that no one else can do it and it simply isn't true. There are jobs out there that do require superior intelligence but I'm sorry teaching kindergarten or middle school gym isn't one of them. Children did learn to read and do better Mathematics than most kids today in one room school houses being taught by a teacher who learned in the same place and simply took a test to show they knew how to read, write, and do mathematics at a competent level. Most teachers do a good job and some work very hard (others well....) but they are just people doing what they were trained for.
 
Sorry but I do disagree with you. It is far easier to get into and graduate from college with a teaching degree than a medical degree.

I really don't think anyone is arguing that point. Of course a medical degree is more difficult.

Colleges graduate many more teachers than doctors and there are a lot of unemployed teachers walking around-can hardly be said about neurosurgeons.

Neurosurgery is a very specialized field. There would be few of them walking around. i would also hazard a guess that there is less demand for a neurosurgeon than a school teacher.


As far as teachers leaving the profession-yeah they can't find jobs! I know very few teachers once they hook a good job in a district that ever leave.

Then you don't live in my district. I know a dozen teachers who have left the field after one year because, "It's not about teaching." There is so much more to it.

Everyone has their own special talents but this is another problem I have with teachers claiming that their job is so hard and that no one else can do it and it simply isn't true. There are jobs out there that do require superior intelligence but I'm sorry teaching kindergarten or middle school gym isn't one of them.

I assure you that I have the intelligence to adequately perform in any field I choose. Do I have the gift to be who I need to be in all of those fields? No. There is a big difference between intelligence and talent. I've known people that I was surprised could tie their own shoes, but I could not do their jobs with the passion and personal investment that they did.

Children did learn to read and do better Mathematics than most kids today in one room school houses being taught by a teacher who learned in the same place and simply took a test to show they knew how to read, write, and do mathematics at a competent level. Most teachers do a good job and some work very hard (others well....) but they are just people doing what they were trained for.

So teachers that are "good" must go above and beyond what they were trained for? Does any other field require absolute excellence in order to be considered competent? Should it not be that if you are doing what you are trained for you are acceptable, but if you go above and beyond you are excellent?

Teachers are held to a very high standard with good reason. Children are held to a much higher standard than they have ever been before. Administrators (and polititians) say, "Push push push" but (some) parents say, "You are being too hard on little Johnny." Nobody can fully understand what another person does to be excellent, or even competent, in his or her profession. The difference is, everyone assumes they know what teachers should be and what they should do because after all, we all went to school right?
 
As far as teachers leaving the profession-yeah they can't find jobs! I know very few teachers once they hook a good job in a district that ever leave.

You need to read the research and statistical reports. These are teachers that willing leave the field for other "real world" jobs. Not teachers that can't find teaching positions. In some parts of the country school districts cannot fill their openings.
 
Everyone has their own special talents but this is another problem I have with teachers claiming that their job is so hard and that no one else can do it and it simply isn't true. There are jobs out there that do require superior intelligence but I'm sorry teaching kindergarten or middle school gym isn't one of them. Children did learn to read and do better Mathematics than most kids today in one room school houses being taught by a teacher who learned in the same place and simply took a test to show they knew how to read, write, and do mathematics at a competent level. Most teachers do a good job and some work very hard (others well....) but they are just people doing what they were trained for.

I don't think anyone has said that teaching kindergarten or phys ed requires superior intelligence, but do not assume that those who choose to teach do not possess superior intelligence. You would be surprised how many of those teacher's have quite a bit of post-baccalaureate training/schooling and could easily have pursued a career in medicine, but chose not to. Not everyone's career calling is based on their IQ. Believe it or not, some of us actually had other jobs before we became teachers that required quite a bit of the superior intelligence you speak of.

I beg to differ that children learned better during the days of a one-room school house. This assumes that the world we live in today is exactly the same as the one that existed then. The two cannot be compared in any way, shape, or form. The most glaring difference is that the curriculum requirements today are much more stringent. Teachers who taught in a one-room school, rarely were teaching algebra and geometry concepts to 2nd & 3rd graders. They taught the basics of arithmetic, not mathematics. English was spelling and basic sentence construction, not research papers in the 5th grade. Few children learned to read beyond a 6th grade level.
There was cooperation between school and home. Homework was a priority, something students did on their own and parents didn't complain if they got "too" much. There were fewer disruptive students, heck there were fewer students period. The teacher had built-in assistants; the older students often tutored the younger ones. When a student was disruptive, the teacher was permitted to use corporal punishment and the parent followed up at home with more of the same instead of blaming the mean teacher.
 
I don't think anyone has said that teaching kindergarten or phys ed requires superior intelligence, but do not assume that those who choose to teach do not possess superior intelligence. You would be surprised how many of those teacher's have quite a bit of post-baccalaureate training/schooling and could easily have pursued a career in medicine, but chose not to. Not everyone's career calling is based on their IQ. Believe it or not, some of us actually had other jobs before we became teachers that required quite a bit of the superior intelligence you speak of.

I beg to differ that children learned better during the days of a one-room school house. This assumes that the world we live in today is exactly the same as the one that existed then. The two cannot be compared in any way, shape, or form. The most glaring difference is that the curriculum requirements today are much more stringent. Teachers who taught in a one-room school, rarely were teaching algebra and geometry concepts to 2nd & 3rd graders. They taught the basics of arithmetic, not mathematics. English was spelling and basic sentence construction, not research papers in the 5th grade. Few children learned to read beyond a 6th grade level.
There was cooperation between school and home. Homework was a priority, something students did on their own and parents didn't complain if they got "too" much. There were fewer disruptive students, heck there were fewer students period. The teacher had built-in assistants; the older students often tutored the younger ones. When a student was disruptive, the teacher was permitted to use corporal punishment and the parent followed up at home with more of the same instead of blaming the mean teacher.

both my children attend and have attended in 'one room school houses' for years-and based on their experiences and the experiences of multitudes of other students who have been taught within the same system they are learning better.

in actuality the children for the bulk of lessons are taught in 2 separate classrooms (k or 1st-3rd and 3rd or 4th -8th). our curriculum meets and exceeds the most stringent requirements in the public schools and the lower grades are routinely learning algebra and geometry. language instruction includes continuing teaching concepts into upper grades that with regularity abandoned in traditional schools at 3rd grade level (which may be the reason the students in later years achieve well above national norms in college testing), and research papers are introduced well before 5th grade (dd was doing them in 3rd, ds in rudimentary form in 2nd). one of the clear advantages of a multi grade classroom is that younger students are exposed to material and concepts that will come up later in their education-giving them an advance look at 'the next step', which we've found they often have greater success in learning and applying by virtue of this exposure. older students by virtue of being in the classroom with younger students are exposed to reinforcement of basic skills and historical concepts that are the basis for their current learning which strengthens their abilities.

my kid's teachers (there are 2, no aides, no older students teaching the younger students) are both college educated and meet or exceed our state's credentialing requirement. there is no homework-not the school's policy unless a child fails to complete their own daily work. no corporal punishment. no more and in actuality less parental involvement than i've seen in most public schools (as an observer and former teacher)-and behavioural problems can be of much greater degree since the school system has traditionaly been a 'last hope/ditch' effort on the part of some parents whose kids have been refused traditional public education ('no tolerance' policies permitted districts to remove kids from public schools with proviso of private tutor, parents could'nt/would'nt quit jobs to stay at home all day to supervise kids).

reading 'levels' from past centuries cannont be compared with modern standards because while rural children did have a higher rate of completion/drop out at a younger age, the reading materials were vastly different (and in many cases before the popularity and availability of the mcguffey readers, the bible was used in even the youngest of grades) so what is now considered the level expectation for a 3rd grader was 'back then' in actuality what was being taught in younger grades (reading level expectations were lowered in the u.s. and the mcguffy's and other texts revised DOWN when large non native english speaking children became a larger population in public schools as a means to address the need for greater emphasis on basic english skills).

while i did not keep the materials from back when i went through college to support it, i would disagree that the more traditional historical one room school teacher had it easier or taught at a lower level of instruction. i recall reviewing curriculum guidelines and teacher testing criteria during a course i took on the history of education and the amount of material that those teachers taught was very impressive. while there was not the scope of mathmatics and scientific information that present teachers must cover, there was a much greater emphasis on history, geography, political science than most modern day elementary schools begin to cover (and let us not forget that those teachers also taught with regularity subjects that no current multiple subject/single grade teacher generaly ever covers in their regular curriculum-bible, full blown music instruction, formal public speaking and health).

as for a previous post about teachers back then just 'taking the test' to teach-'the test' in actuality was commonly either a multiple day written and oral test that determined a teacher's proficiency in ALL the subjects they would conceivably be held responsible for, or, a totaly oral exam in which proficiency was proven by oraly demonstrating knowledge in each of the subject matters (in history for example a teaching candidate could be required to give an entire oral history of the united states including pertinant names, dates and events-including their locations). as compared to modern day credentialing tests which largly test on educational theory these tests were much greater in subject comprehension.

i think before anyone starts placing current teaching standards/methods over those of the past they should first consider that it was that form of education that produced the individuals that invented and created the base forms of the mechanisms, technologies and advancements that we take for granted today as 'simplistic' but without which our society and world would be in a very different place.
 
Sorry but I do disagree with you. It is far easier to get into and graduate from college with a teaching degree than a medical degree..

Everyone has their own special talents but this is another problem I have with teachers claiming that their job is so hard and that no one else can do it and it simply isn't true. There are jobs out there that do require superior intelligence but I'm sorry teaching kindergarten or middle school gym isn't one of them. Children did learn to read and do better Mathematics than most kids today in one room school houses being taught by a teacher who learned in the same place and simply took a test to show they knew how to read, write, and do mathematics at a competent level. Most teachers do a good job and some work very hard (others well....) but they are just people doing what they were trained for.


Ok-- I can completely tell you have never taught-- or been in a teaching training program.

Many of the HES (Health Exercise Science) majors at my teacher college follow a rigourous health curriculum, which rivals some medical school courses. Yes, anatomy/physiology--pharmacology type courses, classes on just muscles and tendons , and many many clinics. The coursework and classload ,at least at my school, is equal to med school classes.

I am in training for four different education majors. (elementary, special education, English and Social Studies). I have to take comprehensive test which cover content in 12 different school levels in each most subjects. So basically I need to know kindergarten content to 12th grade Social Studies and everything in between. In my college, you need to keep an A average , a 3.50 GPA or higher to even remain in the program.

When I graduate in May, I will have more than enough credits for a Masters degree. Because of NCLB, I will be highly qualified in four different subject matters. I do about 50-60 hours a work per week in all my courses.
 
I know many people who have either subbed in kindergarten once, or have visited a kindergarten classroom and have remarked to me that they could never do this on a regular basis. I truly hope that the poster who mentioned kindergarten isn't inferring that teaching it doesn't require much training- if so, you're welcome to spend the day in my classroom :).
 
I know many people who have either subbed in kindergarten once, or have visited a kindergarten classroom and have remarked to me that they could never do this on a regular basis. I truly hope that the poster who mentioned kindergarten isn't inferring that teaching it doesn't require much training- if so, you're welcome to spend the day in my classroom :).

ITA!

I did a practicum in a kindergarten classroom. There were 26 kids--4 or which had very limited English skills.

It was one of my hardest practicums--and I'm on my 5th one right now.
 
Cindy B- I had one year where 80% of my kiddos were non-english speakers!

It's apparent that there are always people who just don't get what we do. Luckily I have many former students ( and parents ) who do. My first class just entered the high school. When I see them around town they always remember me and what we did in kindergarten :).
 
if teaching requires less 'superior' intelligence than other professions, and teaching degrees are easier to aquire so they seemingly would appeal to individuals on the non 'superior' intelligence range-what does this say about those 'superior' individuals who are reliant on teachers to provide them with their educations? are they by virtue of their intelligence able to simply get beyond their teacher's intellectual short-comings and assimilate the knowledge and training they require for their future careers? are we 'dumbing down' and disservicing our future doctors and others by virtue of subjecting them to receiving their education from less superior beings? should we return to a system of strictly apprenticeship where 'formal education' was strictly under the tutelage system where lack of knowlege and generational disemination of misinformation was common?

sure, medical school is no walk in the park. but in medical school as in many other more respected (than teaching) professions the scholar starts with a broad subject matter and ends with a concentration on the focus of their practice/trade-and often in the area of their particular choosing, often a choice based on an individual assessment of their own strengths and weaknesses (specialization in medicine is'nt always because a candidate wants to go into a particular narrowed field-it can be because they do not feel competant to go into a much broader general practice). in teaching the scholar generaly starts with a narrow subject matter (the subject(s) in which they will teach) and ends with the very broad concentration of educational theories and practices. these incorperate biological, psychological and environmental issues and factors in learning, public, educational and child welfare law, cultural diversity and sociology, administration and time managment, group and individual dynamics...then there's i guess there's 'the fluff stuff'-curriculum development and presentation, group and individual supervision, assessment and testing techniques....

hey i guess i WAS less intelligent to go into the teaching program at my university-i could have avoided running around campus taking classes in ALL the degree disciplines the college offered and just stayed put in the same building/discipline for all those years (like my non teaching candidate peers did):rolleyes: but then i could'nt have been too dumb-when i applied to graduate under the MINIMUM criteria within my state's teaching program i had enough units to receive 4 separate degrees:angel:


sorry to fly off the handle-but i left teaching for child welfare when i saw one too many parents entrust at the drop of a hat their most prescious possession into the hands of someone they clearly felt was 'sub intelligent' and unskilled, while they would spend days and weeks searching out a lube shop because 'i don't trust just anyone with my baby':scared1: :scared1:

oh yeah, i taught kindergarten:sad2:
 
I said teachers teach. This is a prime example of not teaching. You really think you going to a French competition would have helped much? I doubt it. You needed someone teaching. Some teachers definitely don't do what they should. Some definitely do. Still doesn't mean they shouldn't be given their due pay because they don't do extra activities like competitions and clubs. That particular teacher shouldn't be allowed to get away with that, that to me is an example of the high paid administrator of that building not doing their jobs, and .........did your parents advocate for you to the administration?

And could you please not use the eyeroll this time so we could have a friendly discussion?

The point of bringing up the French competition....was had she been teaching...then we could have had a small minute chance to actually...I don't know..understand what they were asking us.

She had NO BUSINESS taking us there....but SHE chose to do that. We were an embarassment. But she has her PhD which is all she cared about that year.

I would have rather not gone but it was she who said we were "ready". Allez allez! Umm...NOT!

She clearly had to much on her plate to mess around w/ a full time job.
 
I was talking about teachers grading papers, creating lesson plans, and calling parents after the contractual school day ends. High school teachers have 120 to 150 students, so these things can be time consuming, especially when kids are writing 3 to 5 page papers. Teachers don't "have to" spend time after school to do this, but if they want to do their job well, they will. I'm talking about creating lesson plans for themselves and their students to follow, not the ones they have to turn in to meet standards. Most teachers also have to gather materials for the lesson plans as well, and often buy those materials themselves.

I don't think it's the teachers who are asking for parent volunteers. Teachers aren't complaining about having to do the extra work, they just want to be compensated for the work that they do. If parents value the work teachers put in, both during the school day and beyond it, they will be willing to pay for it.

Someone posted that some states have this included in the contracts. So if it is a required part of their job--then yes in some way they are being compensated either by additional stipend or just as part of their salary.
 
:thumbsup2 I'm currently doing my practicum in a K class. I love it but it's exhausting! And I know it's the grade for me. But many of my peers say, NO WAY to K!

I'm working on my master's in elementary ed (have my bs outside of field) and two years ago when I was looking at returning to go to school (after several years of being a SAHM) my choice came down to elementary ed or law school.

One was a two year masters program and the other a three year law school program. I could have chosen either, I picked education, not because I thought it would be easier (it's not easy!), I picked it because I thought it would be a more rewarding career :banana:




I know many people who have either subbed in kindergarten once, or have visited a kindergarten classroom and have remarked to me that they could never do this on a regular basis. I truly hope that the poster who mentioned kindergarten isn't inferring that teaching it doesn't require much training- if so, you're welcome to spend the day in my classroom :).
 
:rolleyes:

They are also not to be teaching to a test...that isn't true teaching. (At least--I don't think that is what they were tought when they got their education degrees.)

Again--just a sign that they are nothing more than hourly employees as that is how they wish to be treated.

This statement alone shows just how little you know of the situation. Mr. Bush has pushed these tests on the schools in his brilliant "No child left behind" plan and if your kids don't do well in these tests, your school loses funding and a lot of it. Sure they teach to the test becasue they have no choice. So don't go blaming that on the teachers.
 
This statement alone shows just how little you know of the situation. Mr. Bush has pushed these tests on the schools in his brilliant "No child left behind" plan and if your kids don't do well in these tests, your school loses funding and a lot of it. Sure they teach to the test becasue they have no choice. So don't go blaming that on the teachers.

Sadly this is the truth. In the school district where my twin teachers, no field trips are allowed until after PSSA testing. They even have a 'pep rally' to get the kids excited about taking PSSA. Her teaching schedule is dictated by what needs to be covered for the day in order to make sure the kids know what they need to know in order to take the PSSAs in March. It's sad, but it's the way teaching is now and not by the choice of the teachers.

My friend is also a teacher. She has been teaching for about 2 years now and is already considering leaving the field because of NCLB. Too much pressure has been put on the school district by the government, which in turns puts pressure on the administration and then on the teachers to make sure the kids 'succeed' for the testing. It's just the way it is.
 

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