Teacher union ARGH!!!!

[Hannathy]

Just wondering where did you get the information that the state limits the percentage increase as I've never heard of that before (not saying it isn't the case, I really just haven't heard that).

Other states limit the amount of outright raises also, this does not count the automatic increases they get every year just for being there, this is on top of it.

 

[gina2000]

I know a ton of volunteers who coach sports, run Scouts and generally work with children after school or in the evenings.

With precious few exceptions, all of them have a child on the team, in the troop or involved at the same level with another parent figure. And with precious few exceptions, all of them leave once their children age out.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

And if that teacher has not been getting paid and has just been staying after school to do something extra, and you would punish him by voting against his raise, then I hope he and other teachers like him never put in one more minute without pay. If that's an example of the gratitude from parents..

A lot of after school positions come with a stipend but many of these clubs do not. They just are run by really nice teachers who are donating their time. They should be rewarded, not punished.

I have never understood this argument. Teacher positions are salaried and not hourly.
I just don't get that mentality at all. Until they start using timecards to clock in...calculating it down to the minute...is...silly. Very silly.

These "extra-curricular" activities...may be extras to the school day..but they are beneficial to education. Which I assume why teachers choose the fields they do since they aren't happy with the pay.

I guess in going to school...I had always assumed that it was part of the teachers job to facilitate the learning process in and out of the classroom whether it be before or after school. I just don't see it as much of a "volunteer" thing to do as in..."if you want to do it, we'll have the program and if not we won't."

 

[swilphil]

The vast majority of teachers I know do put in extra time without pay grading papers, making lesson plans, and calling parents. They come in early and leave late, but they aren't going to be free babysitters for kids. Our district pays for extra duties, but there is a limit. Teachers have their own families and lives. They can not be expected to be at the school 24/7.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Teachers have their own families and lives. They can not be expected to be at the school 24/7.

I don't know any teacher who is expected to be at school for 24/7.

And are they not contractually obligated to do all the things mentioned in your posts. If they are not--then they shouldn't do them b/c they don't have to. If they are--well then that is what they "get paid to do".

The teachers I know--they have to do the lesson plans b/c they have to demonstrate that how they are teaching and the assignments they choose adhere to the Florida Sunshine Standards (I think that is what it is called).


I don't know any generalized profession where the employee never has families or lives of their own.

Out of the 10 schools I have attended, I never found a school where the number of activities equaled or exceeded the number of teachers available to sponsor them.

When I see threads like this with posts that oppose the OP's opinion--it just adds further fuel to the debate that teachers expect an 8ish to a 3ish workday, 5 days a week with holiday and summer breaks and not one minute more.

It really shouldn't be about that.

I mean--how many posts do I see where one must be "qualified" to teach--and then in this very thread...we are asking possibly unqualified parents to take over "teaching" the extra curricular activities/clubs/academic teams.

I don't know about you--but my mother sucked at Algebra and she was the last person I wanted coaching my math teams for any math competition. We wanted to at least have a chance at winning. Not just show up and not have a clue of what to do.

 

[Laz]

Newsflash: MOST professionals do this all the time. That is part of the deal when you are a professional. If you don't want to be considered a professional, then sure, don't do the extras BUT do call yourself what you are -- an hourly-wage, union employee. You cannot both claim professional status and behave like a factory worker clocking out at the end of the shift.

And FWIW, I don't think that any of this is about money -- the teachers in my school district are among the highest paid in the state in an area which does not have the highest cost of living (but which does have among the highest property tax rates in the state). And yet, these highly-paid teachers regularly tell parents that they can't meet after 3:14pm because, "It's not in the contract. " This was the same attitude in another school district where the teachers were not as well paid. So, it's not about the money, it's about the attitude -- the non-professional attitude of "I'm paid by the hour and the minute the bell rings, I'm outta here and screw you." I used to have a lot of respect for teachers, but no more, not after 9 years of dealing with this attitude in two different school districts.

It is possible the the teacher in question may want to donate his time, but the union (or fellow union teachers) may forbid it during negotiations The teacher could get in BIG trouble for not supporting the union. This is done in Indiana during negotiations. It is a type of work slowdown because the teachers are not allowed to strike. It is hoped to get parents and children all upset so that the administration folds to their pressure.

 

[Hannathy]

It is possible the the teacher in question may want to donate his time, but the union (or fellow union teachers) may forbid it during negotiations The teacher could get in BIG trouble for not supporting the union. This is done in Indiana during negotiations. It is a type of work slowdown because the teachers are not allowed to strike. It is hoped to get parents and children all upset so that the administration folds to their pressure.

And this is why people don't consider teachers professionals but hourly union workers.

 

[Kathi OD]

Other states limit the amount of outright raises also, this does not count the automatic increases they get every year just for being there, this is on top of it.

Other states may limit the amount of raises, I'm not questioning the practice at all, or even a state's right to do so. I'm not even trying to say it doesn't exist in NJ. However, as a teacher in the state of NJ, I had never heard that we had this legislation here. I was just wondering where the OP got that information, because I would be personally affected by it.

 

[paigevz]

I don't know any teacher who is expected to be at school for 24/7.

And are they not contractually obligated to do all the things mentioned in your posts. If they are not--then they shouldn't do them b/c they don't have to. If they are--well then that is what they "get paid to do".

The teachers I know--they have to do the lesson plans b/c they have to demonstrate that how they are teaching and the assignments they choose adhere to the Florida Sunshine Standards (I think that is what it is called).


I don't know any generalized profession where the employee never has families or lives of their own.

Out of the 10 schools I have attended, I never found a school where the number of activities equaled or exceeded the number of teachers available to sponsor them.

When I see threads like this with posts that oppose the OP's opinion--it just adds further fuel to the debate that teachers expect an 8ish to a 3ish workday, 5 days a week with holiday and summer breaks and not one minute more.

It really shouldn't be about that.

I mean--how many posts do I see where one must be "qualified" to teach--and then in this very thread...we are asking possibly unqualified parents to take over "teaching" the extra curricular activities/clubs/academic teams.

I don't know about you--but my mother sucked at Algebra and she was the last person I wanted coaching my math teams for any math competition. We wanted to at least have a chance at winning. Not just show up and not have a clue of what to do.

Teachers teach. They are there to teach the math. Not to help you win at a math competition. If they CHOOSE to do that, then that is their choice. It shouldn't be expected.

 

[java]

Other states may limit the amount of raises, I'm not questioning the practice at all, or even a state's right to do so. I'm not even trying to say it doesn't exist in NJ. However, as a teacher in the state of NJ, I had never heard that we had this legislation here. I was just wondering where the OP got that information, because I would be personally affected by it.

State funding in the public school are now dependant on the % of raises toward teachers. I am not certain on the amount of % per year but it is no more than 4 (I believe it is limited to 3%) I am good friends with a board member-At a board meeting we got a 30+ page book about the differences in where the 2 stand at.
As a NJ teacher have you been given a 7% raise recently? along with no copay of insurance? Those are the big sticking points in our negotiations.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Teachers teach. They are there to teach the math. Not to help you win at a math competition. If they CHOOSE to do that, then that is their choice. It shouldn't be expected.

They are also not to be teaching to a test...that isn't true teaching. (At least--I don't think that is what they were tought when they got their education degrees.)

Again--just a sign that they are nothing more than hourly employees as that is how they wish to be treated.

(I learned more in math competition than I ever did in the classroom.)

Fine--they are there to just teach. Forget anything else they could ever do in the classroom since that isn't in their contracts. Why would they ever want to go above and beyond when the status quo seems to work for them.

It might be a generality, but it seems there are many stories that support that philosophy.

But even with just the status quo--there are those who just don't even get to that level of competence.

I guess that is why my French teacher decided her PhD was more important than teaching her kids in any of her classes my senior year. Sure she didn't have to take us to a French Competition where we could have been easily out performed by French 2 year olds. But somewhere she got it in her head that as long as she showed up to class and said a few French words in class, she more than fufilled her obligation. Had she at least done what she really should have done in the classroom...then we wouldn't have looked so stupid in the competition when placed in the categories equivilant to the class we were taking during the school day. I wish that was one extra-curricular activity where the teacher said..you know what...I am just too busy and don't think the students will be adequately prepared for the competition. But she didn't. (FTR--her time devoted to that competition was NEVER outside of school hours except for her actual time at the competition in Orlando for 1 weekend.)

Sure i got an A in the class...but that's like me getting an A in Calculus while getting a 1 on the AP exam b/c the teacher spent the greater part of the year reviewing Algebra I. (that didn't happen thankfully--but just my illustration of what it was like in that French class.)

On a positive note--she did well on her dissertation (or whatever she was working on for her PhD). At least someone learned something that year..even if it wasn't her students.

 

[momof2inPA]

Newsflash: MOST professionals do this all the time. That is part of the deal when you are a professional. If you don't want to be considered a professional, then sure, don't do the extras BUT do call yourself what you are -- an hourly-wage, union employee. You cannot both claim professional status and behave like a factory worker clocking out at the end of the shift.

And FWIW, I don't think that any of this is about money -- the teachers in my school district are among the highest paid in the state in an area which does not have the highest cost of living (but which does have among the highest property tax rates in the state). And yet, these highly-paid teachers regularly tell parents that they can't meet after 3:14pm because, "It's not in the contract. " This was the same attitude in another school district where the teachers were not as well paid. So, it's not about the money, it's about the attitude -- the non-professional attitude of "I'm paid by the hour and the minute the bell rings, I'm outta here and screw you." I used to have a lot of respect for teachers, but no more, not after 9 years of dealing with this attitude in two different school districts.

There's strength in numbers, whether you are a BA, BS, MA, MS, PhD, or none of these. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that.

If I'm not mistaken, some teacher contracts include requirements for extracurricular participation/leadership.

 

[momof2inPA]

State funding in the public school are now dependant on the % of raises toward teachers. I am not certain on the amount of % per year but it is no more than 4 (I believe it is limited to 3%) I am good friends with a board member-At a board meeting we got a 30+ page book about the differences in where the 2 stand at.
As a NJ teacher have you been given a 7% raise recently? along with no copay of insurance? Those are the big sticking points in our negotiations.

I told you, the 7% is a starting point for negotiations. Whose idea was it to create a 30+ page report? Why spend so much time on PR? Why not just negotiate? Do the administrators have a hired negotiator? Why do you say "our" negotiations? Oh yeah, you're good friends with a board member.

 

[java]

I told you, the 7% is a starting point for negotiations. Whose idea was it to create a 30+ page report? Why spend so much time on PR? Why not just negotiate? Do the administrators have a hired negotiator? Why do you say "our" negotiations? Oh yeah, you're good friends with a board member.

I am also a good friend with one of the teachers. She lives in our neighborhood and what I don't like about it is that she feels like an outsider now. They do feel like their hands are tied by the union and I feel for her as well. She also has an 8th grader(my son's friend) and is crushed by what they are missing. The 30 pages came from the union=Not the school board. And the 7 is not their starting point. They will NOT negotiate down from that point. They have refused to sit down to negotiate.
While I want what is best for the teachers, I do put my own child ahead of that. That is where my frustration lies I guess.

 

[Kathi OD]

State funding in the public school are now dependant on the % of raises toward teachers. I am not certain on the amount of % per year but it is no more than 4 (I believe it is limited to 3%) I am good friends with a board member-At a board meeting we got a 30+ page book about the differences in where the 2 stand at.
As a NJ teacher have you been given a 7% raise recently? along with no copay of insurance? Those are the big sticking points in our negotiations.

Depends on what you call recently. Not our last negotiated contract, but the one before that (which began with the 2002 school year) we got 7% raises 2 out of the 4 years. The last two years were over 5%. In our present contract (which began last school year) we negotiated raises of 5.5, 5, and 4.5% in each of the three years. So you can see why I was wondering where you got the information. Do you know if this is just policy or legislation and/or when it went into effect?

We have several choices for insurance. Depending on which one we choose, there may or may not be copays. The plan I chose does have a copay, but it is a PPO as opposed to an HMO. Personally, I am willing to pay for the ability to have the flexibility in choosing providers that a PPO provides. We do not have to contribute to our premiums after our first year of service for personal coverage. For family coverage we have to have three years of service before the district picks up the premium.

I would bet if your local union passed out a book that stated the differences between the two sides, the numbers/demands would be quite different. You have to realize that the book of information is propaganda. I can almost guarantee that the school board's version of what the teacher's want and what the board is offering is written to make it seem as though the teachers are being unreasonable; just as one written by the teacher's union would make the school board appear unreasonable.

 

[Cindy B]

Principals make the teachers do these extra curricular activities. They are not paid positions. I don't think parents have any idea how many unpaid hours teachers put in. They deserve the right to strike.

Lori

In our district-- advisors are coaches are paid positions. They even pay the teachers to chaperone dances.

In fact, depending on the sport/club, a teacher could make approximately an extra $10-12,000 per year chairing these activities. An assistant coach/advisor can make about $2,500-8,000 fo this activities during the school year.

 

[Kathi OD]

I am also a good friend with one of the teachers. She lives in our neighborhood and what I don't like about it is that she feels like an outsider now. They do feel like their hands are tied by the union and I feel for her as well. She also has an 8th grader(my son's friend) and is crushed by what they are missing. The 30 pages came from the union=Not the school board. And the 7 is not their starting point. They will NOT negotiate down from that point. They have refused to sit down to negotiate.
While I want what is best for the teachers, I do put my own child ahead of that. That is where my frustration lies I guess.

I don't know what school district you live in, but generally (not always) when teacher's unions set their demands that high, it is because they are one of the lowest paid districts in the area. I'm not saying that is the case where you live, but it was in the year our union negotiated those percentages from the district. Even at those, seemingly high, percentages, we are not the highest teachers in the county. But at least now we're not at the bottom either.

 

[firstmickey]

I'm sorry your son does not get to do his Robotics club this year. That must be very disappointing for him.

You don't say where you are in PA...but I am north of Pittsburgh and our teachers are currently on strike.

They are requesting a 7.8% raise each year for six years and do not wish to pay anything for their healthcare. They have been working for one year without a contract and they went out on strike last Monday.


The school board has offered them a 4% raise each year for 6 years and want them to pay $20 a MONTH towards their healthcare.

It has been totally ugly here. Every day is new rumors, new emails, news shows, picketing. I am so disgusted by all of it. Trying to explain these situations to your kids is difficult.


The teachers finally came back with a 6.3% increase and again ...they dont want to pay anything towards their own healthcare. Who on earth doesn't pay for health care in this day and age? time to join reality!

We've already eaten through Thanksgiving vacation and are working on Christmas vacation now. We will probably have to go to school now until the end of June also.

The thing that irritates me the most is...the teachers lose not one penny when they are on strike. They will still work their 180 days and get paid every cent. While everyone they have inconvenienced is losing time and money. The only people they are hurting here is the kids. I really hope the school board doesn't budge an inch. Our taxes are already increasing to pay the 4%. Most parents I know support the school board in this issue.

All of our extracurricular activities are going on and being run by parents or admiinistrators and the football coach did cross the picket line. (he's being fined by the union btw...and the football parents are paying it)

It's just a horrible situation all the way around...I don't think it's going to solve anything.



ETA: Our teachers are paid 15% higher than any other school in the county! The average salary is $55K

 

[BrerMom]

I would say that MOST of our after-school activities (not including sports) are volunteer. The ones that are paid average an extra $250 a year, to be split if there are two advisors. I stopped being the advisor of one group because I was only "permitted" to take the kids to the state conference if I was willing to use my two personal days to do it. Umm, no thank you. I was volunteering my time to do be the advisor. Some of the parents volunteered to pay for my substitute if they would let me go with the kids , but the parents were told no by the administration. My group fell under different rules than a group with a paid advisor and I wasn't allowed to miss any days of school. Since the point of the group was to prepare for the state conference and the kids weren't allowed to attend without me, it didn't make any sense to continue volunteering.

7% raises just amaze me. In Michigan, we are just glad to have our jobs. Our last contract was a whopping 1 1/2% raise spread over the two-year contract. Think the cost of living was only 1 1/2% over those two years? We don't have a contract yet this year - most districts that are in negotiations this year don't - because the state can't make up its mind how much it's going to give the districts per student. The rumor is that they are hoping to negotiate a 2% raise.

For the most part, I haven't been buying supplies for the classroom like I did several years ago. I just don't have the extra $$$. The parents aren't donating supplies like they occasionally did if we published a wish list. They just don't have the extra $$$, either.

 

[Kathi OD]

Who on earth doesn't pay for health care in this day and age? time to join reality!

My husband would be one of those people who does not pay for health care. His employer picks up the entire cost. He does not work for a governmental agency, but for a private company. It is one of the things that he negotiates whenever he changes jobs. His philosophy is: "why change if you aren't going to get at least what you're making where you are?"