teacher myths

[NotUrsula]

Just curious, where are the lots of people who are getting 2 months paid vacation and what do they do???? I have never heard of this, in this country and while I've always said "never say never" I can't believe there are "lots" of people out there with 2 months paid time off.

Most of us who have generous vacation time have it through seniority in government and non-profit organizations, including universities. As to why, the answer to that is simple: on the whole we get paid less than folks who do comparable work in the private sector, and the leave time is a benefit that doesn't actually cost cash money to provide. (Yes, I know that it has a cost, but I don't have to account for it when I am making out my departmental budget and I have $XXX to spend.)

There are some private-sector companies that primarily do business with and recruit from universities and the Federal government, and they may match the vacation time as a hiring incentive. They are fairly rare, though.

I make about 35% less than someone doing comparable work in the private sector; the leave policy is an attempt to compensate me for that pay differential. (FTR, the entry degree for my job is a Master's.) FWIW, we top out at 30 days vacation time, plus 2 personal days and 6 sick per year. In most cases, we are not allowed to take more than 10 days' leave contiguously, except with considerable advance permission from top-level management, normally at least 6 months notice.

 

[golfgal]

Take a look around the country right now. I'd venture to say that over 50% of people don't make a "living wage." Welcome to the USA 2010 and it isn't going to get any better no matter who is the White House, Congress, or wherever. The writing has been on the wall for a long time with our economy.

Not in jobs that require a college degree.

 

[Darsa]

Not in jobs that require a college degree.

My husband has a college degree (Bachelor's) and we couldn't live on what he makes alone.

(Egad, and PLEASE don't assume that we blow our money on bigscreens, vacations, fancy cars etc; nothing could be further than the truth, tho it seems like that's what a lot of people seem to think around here )

 

[NotUrsula]

Not in jobs that require a college degree.

I would think that it depends on what your definition of a "living wage" is. Personally I've never been able to come up with one that didn't have a hole in it somewhere.

Based on your past posts, you seem to think that it means a salary sufficient to comfortably buy a single-family home on one income in the community where you are employed.

If that is your definition, I can think of a heck of a lot of professions where that level of income is not the norm. Many of them are pink-collar public-sector jobs. Among them, in addition to teachers, may be librarians, social workers, dieticians and food-service managers, recreation supervisors, public-works supervisors, corrections officers, and many retail managers.

In my pink-collar world, the reality is that if you're not in a long-term relationship that allows you to pool two incomes, you almost surely will never be able to afford to buy a single-family-home. A condo, perhaps, but that's about it unless you luck into a good foreclosure deal.

FTR, I'm 25 years into my post-Master's career. While I *might* be able to support a home purchase if I divorced (because I happen to be debt-free and have a bit of a nest-egg saved over time), it wouldn't be in a superior school district, and my kids would definitely not be attending parochial schools any more unless Dad paid for it. They would also be completely on their own in terms of paying for college beyond what is now in their savings accounts, because I wouldn't be able to keep adding to them in any meaningful way. If I had never married I'd never be able to do it, because I would not have been able to save the way I have over the years.

 

[golfgal]

My husband has a college degree (Bachelor's) and we couldn't live on what he makes alone.

(Egad, and PLEASE don't assume that we blow our money on bigscreens, vacations, fancy cars etc; nothing could be further than the truth, tho it seems like that's what a lot of people seem to think around here )

Didn't your DH just graduate from college-so he is still in the entry level market for his career. 18 years ago, before you had kids and were renting an apartment, could you have lived off of his salary, probably. Fast forward 20 years into his career assuming he is a good employee, could you live off that salary now, probably. When you look at the teacher's pay, 20 years plus a masters degree is STILL not a livable wage and that is what is so wrong.

 

[Toad_Passenger]

Not in jobs that require a college degree.

My DW has a job that requires a college degree, plus extra training and, by your definition, she does not make a "living wage." In fact her entire building (50 employees) would not meet your criteria, and they ALL require a college degree.

I think you're being naive about what a college degree really does for you in the current economy.

 

[golfgal]

I would think that it depends on what your definition of a "living wage" is. Personally I've never been able to come up with one that didn't have a hole in it somewhere.

Based on your past posts, you seem to think that it means a salary sufficient to comfortably buy a single-family home on one income in the community where you are employed.

If that is your definition, I can think of a heck of a lot of professions where that level of income is not the norm. Many of them are pink-collar public-sector jobs. Among them, in addition to teachers, may be librarians, social workers, dieticians and food-service managers, recreation supervisors, public-works supervisors, corrections officers, and many retail managers.

In my pink-collar world, the reality is that if you're not in a long-term relationship that allows you to pool two incomes, you almost surely will never be able to afford to buy a single-family-home. A condo, perhaps, but that's about it unless you luck into a good foreclosure deal.

No, I think it would mean to be able to find a job and buy a modest house within a reasonable commuting distance from the major employment centers. There really isn't anywhere in the the Twin Cities metro area where a small family, say Mom, Dad and 2 kids, could comfortably live off $66K (which is what a 15 year teacher with a masters degree in our district makes) without a second income. By modest house, nothing fancy, nothing large but 3 bedrooms and a bathrooom size house-maybe 1200 sq feet on the main floor size house. Even a single person, newer into the profession makes around $35K. An apartment, one bedroom, in safe but nothing fancy building is going to run $800-900/month-about 1/2 off their take home pay or more. That is not reasonable, nor is it a living wage, especially considering it is only a few thousand dollars above what is considered poverty level here--AND it would qualify a new teacher for food stamps--THAT is really sad.

 

[MiniGirl]

How about looking up stats for jobs that require a college degree. Mixed into these stats are people that work full time for retail, fast food, etc. too and with lower paying jobs you don't get the same perks. Technically with my job none of my vacation time is paid but I can also take as many days off as I want, which is the trade off.

Alright then..... again this is data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics....

Professional and technical employees get 10 days vacation
clerical and sales employees get, on average, 8.6 and
Blue collar and service employees get, on average, 6.8

This is how the BLS breaks it up, but I do know clerical and sales people that have degrees, and I also know many graduates that are working blue collar jobs and some service jobs that require a college degree.

I also know people in professional positions that get no paid vacation until after a couple of years seniority, but those people are not figured into those statss either. So, feel free to push the numbers to say whatever suits you.

 

[Toad_Passenger]

Didn't your DH just graduate from college-so he is still in the entry level market for his career. 18 years ago, before you had kids and were renting an apartment, could you have lived off of his salary, probably. Fast forward 20 years into his career assuming he is a good employee, could you live off that salary now, probably. When you look at the teacher's pay, 20 years plus a masters degree is STILL not a livable wage and that is what is so wrong.

A "livable wage" however doesn't mean you have to OWN your own home. So long as you are in some form of housing, that counts towards the average housing cost.

I'm not sure what county in Minnesota you live, but according to a site that tracks poverty levels, the average livable wage for Minnesota is $7.77/hour for One Adult supporting themselves. If we look at teachers working an 8-hour day for about 180 days (not sure what the contract is in MN), that would equal almost a $12,000 annual salary, in order to meet Minnesota's livable wage. How many teachers with 20-years experience and a Master's degree are making $12,000 or less?

Livable wage in MN for a 4-person family (2 adults, 2 children) is met with an hourly wage of $25.90/hour, which roughly would mean about $37,000 in gross pay for the teacher (again assuming 8 hours for 180-days). Again, where is this Master's degree teacher +20 who makes less that $37K?

In my county, a teacher with a Master's +20 is making $80,000 this year. The livable wage for a family of 4 in my county? Equal to a 180-day salary of $43,000. Meanwhile there are thousands in our county losing their jobs, some with Bachelor's degrees, who cannot make this wage, let alone any sort of tax increase.

For sake of disclosure, this is the site that I used (it's based on research done before and hosted through Penn State's servers).

Living Wage Calculator

Keep in mind the limits this calculator has, as it is impossible to get the exact costs from every nook and cranny of a State/City/County.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Really? I've never had a full time salaried position that didn't give you a lunch break.

You might get time to each lunch, but that doesn't mean you are allowed to leave the building, though.

 

[Toad_Passenger]

No, I think it would mean to be able to find a job and buy a modest house within a reasonable commuting distance from the major employment centers. There really isn't anywhere in the the Twin Cities metro area where a small family, say Mom, Dad and 2 kids, could comfortably live off $66K (which is what a 15 year teacher with a masters degree in our district makes) without a second income. By modest house, nothing fancy, nothing large but 3 bedrooms and a bathrooom size house-maybe 1200 sq feet on the main floor size house. Even a single person, newer into the profession makes around $35K. An apartment, one bedroom, in safe but nothing fancy building is going to run $800-900/month-about 1/2 off their take home pay or more. That is not reasonable, nor is it a living wage, especially considering it is only a few thousand dollars above what is considered poverty level here--AND it would qualify a new teacher for food stamps--THAT is really sad.

I should move to Minnesota. Around here if you make $35K, you better have 8 or 9 kids if you want food stamps, school lunch relief, or anything like that!

 

[golfgal]

A "livable wage" however doesn't mean you have to OWN your own home. So long as you are in some form of housing, that counts towards the average housing cost.

I'm not sure what county in Minnesota you live, but according to a site that tracks poverty levels, the average livable wage for Minnesota is $7.77/hour for One Adult supporting themselves. If we look at teachers working an 8-hour day for about 180 days (not sure what the contract is in MN), that would equal almost a $12,000 annual salary, in order to meet Minnesota's livable wage. How many teachers with 20-years experience and a Master's degree are making $12,000 or less?

Livable wage in MN for a 4-person family (2 adults, 2 children) is met with an hourly wage of $25.90/hour, which roughly would mean about $37,000 in gross pay for the teacher (again assuming 8 hours for 180-days). Again, where is this Master's degree teacher +20 who makes less that $37K?

In my county, a teacher with a Master's +20 is making $80,000 this year. The livable wage for a family of 4 in my county? Equal to a 180-day salary of $43,000. Meanwhile there are thousands in our county losing their jobs, some with Bachelor's degrees, who cannot make this wage, let alone any sort of tax increase.

For sake of disclosure, this is the site that I used (it's based on research done before and hosted through Penn State's servers).

Living Wage Calculator

Keep in mind the limits this calculator has, as it is impossible to get the exact costs from every nook and cranny of a State/City/County.

According to that calculator a family of 4 in our county needs $63,900 to be considered a livable wage. Our county is quite large and in the southern part of the county, this is doable, in the northern part of the county, it is not, thus the average.

 

[golfgal]

I should move to Minnesota. Around here if you make $35K, you better have 8 or 9 kids if you want food stamps, school lunch relief, or anything like that!

Not "Minnesota", our COUNTY. There are plenty of places around the state where you can easily live off of $35K, but not in the Twin Cities metro area.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Somehow all the people who carry on about the "9 month job" ignore that most 12 month jobs don't actually work that whole time, either.

I always argue about this too.

One of my area districts: 184 days + 2 summer meeting days - 4 personal days = 182 days.

Me: 260 (52 weeks * 5 days/week) - 10 holidays - 26 PTO = 224 days.

That's only 42 days difference. Not 3 months. I know my paid vacation is not the "average", so if we use 10 days (instead of 26), that would be 58 days difference. Still not 3 months.

 

[Michelle and crew]

I always argue about this too.

One of my area districts: 184 days + 2 summer meeting days - 4 personal days = 182 days.

Me: 260 (52 weeks * 5 days/week) - 10 holidays - 26 PTO = 224 days.

That's only 42 days difference. Not 3 months. I know my paid vacation is not the "average", so if we use 10 days (instead of 26), that would be 58 days difference. Still not 3 months.

58 work days is just a few days shy 3 months.

 

[golfgal]

I always argue about this too.

One of my area districts: 184 days + 2 summer meeting days - 4 personal days = 182 days.

Me: 260 (52 weeks * 5 days/week) - 10 holidays - 26 PTO = 224 days.

That's only 42 days difference. Not 3 months. I know my paid vacation is not the "average", so if we use 10 days (instead of 26), that would be 58 days difference. Still not 3 months.

In our district it would be a difference of 4 days considering the days the teachers come in for workshops before school starts, student contact days and teacher workshop days through the school year. The teachers are already back in school for their "stuff", kids start the Tuesday after Labor Day.

 

[palavra]

It's too bad this thread has gone off track into salaries and vacation time. I was hoping to dispel some of the true misconceptions about teaching in general. For example, a couple of pages back, someone commented on a teachers workday as 4-5 classes and a couple of "free periods." Now, i think most teachers can readily say that our planning periods are not free periods at all. While we don't have students at that time, we most definitely aren't free. Some of things that I regularly do during my planning periods include writing lesson plans, running off copies, meeting with parents, planning academic bowl meetings, planning field trips, creating power points, researching for upcoming lessons, tutoring a student who is failing and having team meetings with other middle school teachers.

 

[allison443]

No, I think it would mean to be able to find a job and buy a modest house within a reasonable commuting distance from the major employment centers. There really isn't anywhere in the the Twin Cities metro area where a small family, say Mom, Dad and 2 kids, could comfortably live off $66K (which is what a 15 year teacher with a masters degree in our district makes) without a second income. By modest house, nothing fancy, nothing large but 3 bedrooms and a bathrooom size house-maybe 1200 sq feet on the main floor size house. Even a single person, newer into the profession makes around $35K. An apartment, one bedroom, in safe but nothing fancy building is going to run $800-900/month-about 1/2 off their take home pay or more. That is not reasonable, nor is it a living wage, especially considering it is only a few thousand dollars above what is considered poverty level here--AND it would qualify a new teacher for food stamps--THAT is really sad.

A single person making $35,000 qualifies for food stamps in Minnesota?

 

[Tinkermommy]

I always argue about this too.

One of my area districts: 184 days + 2 summer meeting days - 4 personal days = 182 days.

Me: 260 (52 weeks * 5 days/week) - 10 holidays - 26 PTO = 224 days.

That's only 42 days difference. Not 3 months. I know my paid vacation is not the "average", so if we use 10 days (instead of 26), that would be 58 days difference. Still not 3 months.

Yes it is. Because while there are roughly 90 days in a three month period, there are only around 60 working days. That is what we are counting. So 58 is 3 months of working days.

 

[golfgal]

A single person making $35,000 qualifies for food stamps in Minnesota?

Not in "Minnesota" in our COUNTY in MN.