Tax return is nearly $3000 LESS because I worked part-time last year!

[HHSTigerFan]

What do they do? Does it involve any math? Any reading? It's pretty hard to get a decent job without those skills.

Varies.. one works for the county mowing ditches and plowing snow, another does road construction and spent his first 10 years with a shovel in his hand, the other drives a truck..

 

[indimom]

I bet most people that dislike the EIC, would also be in favor of ending Social Security, I know I would.. Let me invest that money myself, would do a heck of a lot better!

On that we are agreed. Especially since I'm self-employed and paying in both halves of my SS.

 

[Colleen27]

I know a lot of people that didn't go to college and are doing quite well for themselves because they have a solid work ethic.. but heaven forbid we expect that!

The problem with your statement is that it implies that the converse is also true - that those who aren't doing well for themselves lack work ethic. And while that is true for some, there are also many who have a solid work ethic but cannot get ahead.

No, that comment was in reference to an earlier post which stated they could easily live on that AND afford a vacation every year. I found it laughable, so I added it into my post as sarcasm.

Well, cost of living plays heavily into these things. My home cost 25K in 2009 and the average selling price of a home in my community is in the neighborhood of 60K; you can rent a 2-3 bedroom for $500-600/mo. So a person really can make ends meet around here on 30K with a little leftover. And I didn't say anything about vacationing "every year", just that vacations would still be possible.

I bet most people that dislike the EIC, would also be in favor of ending Social Security, I know I would.. Let me invest that money myself, would do a heck of a lot better!

My only problem with that idea is the question of what would become of those that don't. I have no doubt I could do better investing on my own and I don't expect we'll ever see any return on our SS contributions anyway, but I can't see how we as a society could take a sink or swim approach. There's a reason SS was created to begin with; people aren't all that comfortable with the idea of old folks going hungry or homeless.

 

[palavra]

Productive members of society don't suck up tax dollars from the rest of us.

How about being just a little grateful that you can be a productive member of society (according to your definition). You know, there are actually people who, through no fault of their own, can't work or lose their job. I am always amazed that those who have their health and a steady job begrudge the financial help to those who might not have those things. Do some people just choose not to work and live off the system? Sure, but then there will always be members of our society that are deadbeats and just in general lack any moral fiber. And you want to take the help away from those who genuinely need it because some people will take advantage of it?

 

[HHSTigerFan]

And you want to take the help away from those who genuinely need it because some people will take advantage of it?

No, I want to take that job away from govt, would be a heck of a lot more efficient...

 

[Colleen27]

How about being just a little grateful that you can be a productive member of society (according to your definition). You know, there are actually people who, through no fault of their own, can't work or lose their job. I am always amazed that those who have their health and a steady job begrudge the financial help to those who might not have those things. Do some people just choose not to work and live off the system? Sure, but then there will always be members of our society that are deadbeats and just in general lack any moral fiber. And you want to take the help away from those who genuinely need it because some people will take advantage of it?

What kills me is how quickly it becomes about the very poor, minimum wage, no work ethic, didn't bother to get an education. We're not talking about food stamps or AFDC (or whatever they're calling that these days) here. The EITC phases out around 45K for a family with two kids; there are plenty of degreed professionals and skilled tradespeople in our country eligible to claim the credit.

 

[palavra]

No, I want to take that job away from govt, would be a heck of a lot more efficient...

And who then would take up the slack? Do you really want that many more homeless people on the street because someone is hurt at work, has a life threatening illness like cancer or a special needs child that cannot be left alone so one parent must stay at home?

I guess I just don't understand why people can't be happy about the choices that they have made or the health that they enjoy without worrying if there are others who are playing the system. I'm thankful that my husband and I both have jobs, we are healthy enough to work and our daughter's special needs are minor and treatable.

 

[rubato]

So you would rather one parent stay home and the family go on government assistance? Its not always a choice.

Nope, that's not what I said at all. I think that an awful lot of dual income families have the 2nd person working to have luxuries (like vacations), not necessities. Why are they getting a credit? If I choose to go to work so I can go to Disneyworld once a year, or so that I can drive a nicer car, I shouldn't be given a tax credit to have my children taken care of.

I know that it's not ALWAYS a choice. Obviously. If a family can't make it on one income or even 2 for that matter, no matter how much extra they cut out, I am fully in favor of some form of govt. asst. Like the EIC.

And, to get on the minimum wage issue, it was never meant to be a living wage. No one ever promised that a minimum wage job would support anyone. I worked a lot of them when I was younger.

 

[palavra]

Nope, that's not what I said at all. I think that an awful lot of dual income families have the 2nd person working to have luxuries (like vacations), not necessities. Why are they getting a credit? If I choose to go to work so I can go to Disneyworld once a year, or so that I can drive a nicer car, I shouldn't be given a tax credit to have my children taken care of.

I know that it's not ALWAYS a choice. Obviously. If a family can't make it on one income or even 2 for that matter, no matter how much extra they cut out, I am fully in favor of some form of govt. asst. Like the EIC.

And, to get on the minimum wage issue, it was never meant to be a living wage. No one ever promised that a minimum wage job would support anyone. I worked a lot of them when I was younger.

I have no idea where you are from, but in my neck of the woods, most of the two-income families I know have both people working out of necessity and not for luxuries.

 

[karice2]

Once again, you keep avoiding the very idea that some people are NOT ABLE to get a college degree. I'm going to come out and say what we all seem to be avoiding. Some People Are Not Smart Enough. No Amount Of Assistance Will Get Them A College Degree. What do you propose we do with these people? Toss them in the ocean because they are a burden on society, because they are taking the minimum wage jobs which should be available as proving grounds for high school and college age students who are bettering themselves?

[/B]

I have been following this thread for a couple of days and found it super interesting. This is the quote that stuck with me.

The area that I lived in was an area that was a predominately middle class town. People didn't go to college but could get a job doing things that have either been outsourced or turned over to immigrants of some sort (not saying they are all illegal) who will take the pay that most americans will not take for the same jobs.

Here is where the problem comes in, those jobs that are now minimum wage positions were actually positions where a person could make enough to raise a family, have a local vacation to the beach once a year and save a little for retirement. It wasn't glamorous work but you could take pride in the fact that you supported your family and didn't need no stinking handouts.

One could work as a lawn care person, at a chicken plant or a host of other jobs making more than minimum wage in the 80's. I checked, chicken plant workers made $12 an hour in 1982 in my state. Now they make $8. Since we have lost a lot of jobs for those not so bright individuals a system that was set up to help those seriously in need has become fraught with entitled individuals who don't see any shame in taking from those who work hard to do better for themselves.

I mourn the loss of vocational high schools. At least at a votech school, there is a reality check that not everyone is smart enough to go to college but they could learn a skill to support themselves.

 

[snowywhite89]

It will probably surprise people given my positions on other things, but I'm actually all for a flat tax. Social engineering via the tax code has too many unintended consequences and creates too many loopholes. A flat tax rate with a fixed per-person deduction, with no other deductions or credits whatsoever, seems to me the best way to accomplish what taxation is supposed to accomplish - that is, funding the government rather than manipulating the populace's financial decisionmaking.

ITA Each person files a tax return. No single/married/head of household just one filing type. I would also be OK with a stepped flat rate tax.

1st $20K you pay 3%
Next $20K you pay 6% on and so on and so on

 

[DVCBELLE]

How about being just a little grateful that you can be a productive member of society (according to your definition). You know, there are actually people who, through no fault of their own, can't work or lose their job. I am always amazed that those who have their health and a steady job begrudge the financial help to those who might not have those things. Do some people just choose not to work and live off the system? Sure, but then there will always be members of our society that are deadbeats and just in general lack any moral fiber. And you want to take the help away from those who genuinely need it because some people will take advantage of it?

I don't have a problem helping people who truly need it...welfare should be a TEMPORARY solution...not a live on it forever and have more kids when you want a raise. Yes there are truly people out there who need the help and are trying...but lets not deny the fact that too many people know how to work the system and are abusing it. There need to be checks and balances in place. There need to be limits on how they can spend their welfar money. If I felt the government was truly being a good steward of my money - I would happily give it to them. But they aren't. I have worked for the federal govt and believe me when I say there are way too many abusing the system!!

 

[luvsJack]

So now its MY problem someone didn't go out and get marketable skills?

I have worked min wage jobs(maybe $3.35 at the time), when I was working myself through college, learning marketable skills.. see how that works?

Instead we make it harder on companies to remain profitable in the US by taxing them to death, they send quality jobs overseas and now people working those jobs are now working minimum wage jobs.. see how that works?

No those people are making LESS than minimum wage overseas. I have a cousin who lives in El Salvador. Many of the expensive clothing worn here is made in El Salvador by American owned companies. These people make a few dollars a DAY. It that what you want to see here?

And then exactly what do you suggest we do about those people not making enough money to put food on their table??

You made 3.35 while you worked your wat through college--as a single, unmarried person, I suppose?? It is a heck of a lot different for a single PARENT on minimum wage to support their family. Try it with two kids looking at you for food, clothing and shelter.

I have worked my way up through the ranks to make more money, ran a successful business and gone/am going to school to receive other marketable skills. So I know exactly "how that works". But I have walked more than a mile in the shoes of the working poor and know EXACTLY of what I speak, something I think you cannot say.



College is not an option for every one. Its just not. You can jump up and down and preach it all day long but the fact remains. I work at a community college and have seen people of all ages, races, levels of intelligence enrolling in school. Sadly some just don't make it. And for some it just gets too hard to support their family and get an education.

 

[luvsJack]

Nope, that's not what I said at all. I think that an awful lot of dual income families have the 2nd person working to have luxuries (like vacations), not necessities. Why are they getting a credit? If I choose to go to work so I can go to Disneyworld once a year, or so that I can drive a nicer car, I shouldn't be given a tax credit to have my children taken care of.

I know that it's not ALWAYS a choice. Obviously. If a family can't make it on one income or even 2 for that matter, no matter how much extra they cut out, I am fully in favor of some form of govt. asst. Like the EIC.

And, to get on the minimum wage issue, it was never meant to be a living wage. No one ever promised that a minimum wage job would support anyone. I worked a lot of them when I was younger.

Oh, gotcha! I see what you mean now and can see your point.

You are right about minimum wage, it wasn't meant to be a living wage. It is supposed to be a starting point. Sadly too many people are having to try and support a family on it.

 

[HHSTigerFan]

ITA Each person files a tax return. No single/married/head of household just one filing type. I would also be OK with a stepped flat rate tax.

1st $20K you pay 3%
Next $20K you pay 6% on and so on and so on

Is a "stepped flat tax rate" an oxymoron?

 

[snowywhite89]

Is a "stepped flat tax rate" an oxymoron?

It is flat at each step.

 

[HHSTigerFan]

And who then would take up the slack? Do you really want that many more homeless people on the street because someone is hurt at work, has a life threatening illness like cancer or a special needs child that cannot be left alone so one parent must stay at home?

I guess I just don't understand why people can't be happy about the choices that they have made or the health that they enjoy without worrying if there are others who are playing the system. I'm thankful that my husband and I both have jobs, we are healthy enough to work and our daughter's special needs are minor and treatable.

1. Charities, churches etc..

2. Because I want to take care of MY family, to be able to send MY kids to colleges they want to go to etc etc.. lets get back to dangling that carrot in front of people, not making them career welfare recipients...

 

[HHSTigerFan]

It is flat at each step.

So how does that differ from what we currently have??

I have always supported a national sales tax, even for all, stops the tax cheats and basically gets rid of the IRS..

 

[ohlas]

Is a "stepped flat tax rate" an oxymoron?

thank you i needed a good lol after reading the junk on min wage.

Flat tax means. One percentage rate for all no matter what you make.

10k 5 percent
20k 5 percent
100k 5 percent
200k 5 percent

we have a percentage rate like a tiered one now with rebates, credits, deductions, allowances sprinkled in to make it fun...

The government gets a big F for fail in the charity dept.

 

[karice2]

I have always supported a national sales tax, even for all, stops the tax cheats and basically gets rid of the IRS..

Another benefit of a national sales tax is all the money that is missed in the underground economy. The people who don't pay taxes on their income. The "morally corrupt" who work in a cash only environment. Street corner pharmacist, ladies of the night, and people who make money under the table.

If drug dealers had to pay 5% more for their sneakers, that is additional money that the government is collecting from someone who wouldn't be paying taxes anyway.

For those who say they can't afford another tax. If you took home all the money you made and paid a flat sales tax, that would be a better way for you to determine how you want to spend the money that you are making.