SURVEY: Do you know you could swap reservations to any resort with another DVC member

[RobDoc]

What some of us are asking for requires minimal resources - simply eliminate the 30-day window for DVCers to exchange with each other. Speculative renting doesn't come into play because both owners would need to have an existing reservation for the trade to be applicable.

I see no reason why someone owning at Marriot is permitted to offer a trade at 6 months, but because I own at DVC, I am forced to wait until 30 days. Both of us want the same reservation - the only difference is the form of "payment" we are offering. Why is my payment less valuable????

In the past, the Rent/Trade Board did have a 6 month restriction regarding existing reservations and we do have plenty of examples how that was abused - even involving a few which ended up as rentals despite being offered as a trade.

If someone can suggest a means to guarantee that no existing reservation offered as a trade 6 months ahead would end up as a rental, we would be interested in listening.

As for the suggestion that Marriott owners have an advantage over DVC members, the DVC owner may offer to make a reservation 11 months in advance for another member - the Marriott owner can't offer to make a reservation at all. Marriott owners cannot offer any reservation for rent using the DVC Rent/Trade Board on the DIS. If you are suggesting that Marriott owners have some sort of advantage you are wrong. If you are suggesting that only DVC members should be allowed to trade reservations, feel free to offer that as a suggestion. We have had far more non-DVC reservations offered in trade than DVC reservations - using the same "marketing". How have those individuals found their way to use the free service provided by the DIS?

We have about 4 years of Rent/Trade Board data in a database which supports the present policies on the Rent/Trade Board. Changes over the years have been as a result of suggestions and complaints from those who actually use the board and we do place great importance on those suggestions.

 

[Paging Tom Morrow]

If you are suggesting that only DVC members should be allowed to trade reservations, feel free to offer that as a suggestion.

I have offered that suggestion.

Once again, let's say I have a ressie in September at the VWL and another owner has at the BWV. We are each currently waitlisted at Disney for the other person's ressie. DVC won't make that swap, but we could use this board to do so. Yes, we currently have the ability to do that at the 30-day mark, but at that point:

1. Additional days added-on through cash ressies are likely much more difficult to attain.
2. ADRs near the resort are tougher to obtain.

I don't feel that this type of in-kind trading does anything to drive up speculative renting as it requires both owners to have a ressie and for each to use the other's ressie. Rather, it just permits each family to have the Disney vacation they want.

 

[TenThousandVolts]

I see Tom Morrow's point- but I see the problem that the mods would have if these pre-made reservations were advertised as trades- it would not stop cash offers coming in- and it could be abused by someone who really only wanted cash for their ressie- they could just list it as a trade to get around the 30 day rule and then actually sell it for cash.

Perhaps a better way for 2 owners to find each other in this scenario would be to actively participate in the monthly wait-list threads that are often on the Mouse DVC board.

 

[SuzanneSLO]

First, you are suggesting something about the Rent/Trade Board which is NOT true. Condos can be offered for trade on the Rent/Trade Board. There is no policy preventing condo owners from offering their units in trade. We have had a number of owners who have offered their condos in trade.

I am sorry to have made this error. I looked at the new rules under trade offered and saw that it referenced other "timeshares" and a 6 month rule and thought this would prohibit such an open ended trade for a non-timeshare vaction rental. I had posted such an exchange years ago before we became members, but have not tried it since the change in posting rules.

Again, I apologize and hope that no one was mislead by my post. I appreciate all the effort all the moderators do. -- Suzanne

 

[RobDoc]

...
I don't feel that this type of in-kind trading does anything to drive up speculative renting as it requires both owners to have a ressie and for each to use the other's ressie. Rather, it just permits each family to have the Disney vacation they want.

"If someone can suggest a means to guarantee that no existing reservation offered as a trade 6 months ahead would end up as a rental, we would be interested in listening."

 

[Paging Tom Morrow]

"If someone can suggest a means to guarantee that no existing reservation offered as a trade 6 months ahead would end up as a rental, we would be interested in listening."

You know it's impossible for anyone to guarantee such.

The best idea I could come up with is anonymous posting of trades desired with a third party emailing two persons with matching requests. It doesn't 100% prevent renting -- nothing could -- but it does put a significant hamper on the possibility.

It's nothing more than asking owners to act in good faith -- just like you do when you allow owners to rent/transfer their points for money. There's no guarantee that renters aren't going to get swindled out of their money - something which can cause real harm to the users of this site.

It seems to me that a double standard exists.

In permitting renting, no protection at all is given to the renter.

In not permitting in-kind trading at a greater window, protection is given to unknown people who may or may not be harmed by speculative renting.

Why would the latter deserve protection when it's the former who stands to lose significantly more?

 

[FLYNZ4]

"If someone can suggest a means to guarantee that no existing reservation offered as a trade 6 months ahead would end up as a rental, we would be interested in listening."

Doc,

What about the "home resort swap wanted" section be ONLY for reservation requests greater than 11 months in advance. In other words... two members can agree to book for each other PRIOR to the 11 month window... which gives the result of swapping home resort booking preference only... not speculative reservations.

/Jim

 

[FLYNZ4]

Last I checked, Chia-Pet just celebrated it's 25 year anniversary. That's long term.

Chia-pet is clever ADVERTISING... to a very narrow demographic profile. I would not particularly consider it sophisticated MARKETING.

Back to the SAT question:

Ronco advertising is to true marketing... as flipflops are to high perfomance transportation systems.

/Jim

 

[FLYNZ4]

In not permitting in-kind trading at a greater window, protection is given to unknown people who may or may not be harmed by speculative renting.

Lisa and Ken,

I believe that trying to swap pre-made reservations is the wrong approach to take... certainly on DisBoards. The management of this site is very clear and straight forward that they do NOT support speculative renting. That is their right... and this is their forum. We have to respect their wishes.

I do not see where swapping "reservations" (as in pre-booked reservations) is necessary. The real intent it to have two owners cooperate to trade their individual "home booking window".

My proposal to Doc is to NOT allow swapping of pre-booked (IE speculative) reservations. Instead... I think the spirit of the OP's request is fulfilled if DisBoards was to facilitate two owners to "find" each other prior to the 11 month booking window... and then agree to make specific reservations (not speculative reservations) for each other at their respective home booking window.

/Jim

 

[TenThousandVolts]

Doc,

What about the "home resort swap wanted" section be ONLY for reservation requests greater than 11 months in advance. In other words... two members can agree to book for each other PRIOR to the 11 month window... which gives the result of swapping home resort booking preference only... not speculative reservations.

/Jim

That is a pretty good idea- but then would the "wanted" threads have to be deleted upon the opening of the 11 month window- that would require quite a bit of attention by the mods, no?

 

[Paging Tom Morrow]

Lisa and Ken,

I believe that trying to swap pre-made reservations is the wrong approach to take... certainly on DisBoards. The management of this site is very clear and straight forward that they do NOT support speculative renting. That is their right... and this is their forum. We have to respect their wishes.

I do not see where swapping "reservations" (as in pre-booked reservations) is necessary. The real intent it to have two owners cooperate to trade their individual "home booking window".

My proposal to Doc is to NOT allow swapping of pre-booked (IE speculative) reservations.
/Jim

Jim,

I understand fully that the owners of this site have every right to make rules as they see fit. I never argued their rights, only questioned the reasoning behind some of the decisions.

Perhaps you don't see where swapping reservations is necessary. You also aren't likely beholden to not being able to book your summer vacation until less than 7 months out.

Right now, I have a split stay ressie for the summer. I would very much like to consolidate it into one of the two locations, but options are extremely limited. Both locations I am staying at have high demand during the period which I am booked.

Someone could post that they want a 1BR @ BCV during the dates of X/XX to X/XX and are willing to pay $15 per point. That post would get accepted per current guidelines.

If I post I want the same ressie, but want to pay with the exchange of my ressie at BWV during those same dates, that request gets rejected. So, in the end, it comes down to the type of currency being offered for compensation.

Note: I have purposefully listed different resorts within this posted and never mentioned specific dates as to ensure that no one can view this as a back door attempt of posting my desire.

- Ken

 

[FLYNZ4]

I understand fully that the owners of this site have every right to make rules as they see fit. I never argued their rights, only questioned the reasoning behind some of the decisions.

Ken,

I think that the reasoning is clear. The management of this board has strong opinions against speculative renting. Your example does include a loophole that opens the door to enabling speculative renting. Sorry... it just seems that is the fact... and now I understand why they seem to be opposed to the idea (although I do think my last suggestion does not have this loophole).

Perhaps you don't see where swapping reservations is necessary. You also aren't likely beholden to not being able to book your summer vacation until less than 7 months out.

From this comment... I assume that what you mean is that you do not have job flexibility to secure the required vacation time until within 7 months. I realize that many people simply cannot schedule their vacation time far enough in advance. You will probably consider me a cold hearted person... but for people who cannot plan far in advance (whether for personal preference, or job requirements)... I think that timeshares are a bad vacation choice. Every timeshare system that I know of is geared toward early booking... and those who cannot book early, are often disappointed... the best solution seems to be to waitlist for every available option once you know your schedule.

So bottom line: I think that there are two separate and independent proposals being made:

1. Reservation swaps - IE: swapping already booked reservations
2. Home resort booking advantage swap

It seems to me that no amount of argument is likely to get the management of this forum to support #1... because it in fact opens a loophole that enables something they feel strongly about. However... IF the OP really wants #2 (and I think this is true)... then there is a proposal on the table that does not compromise the principles that the management values... at least as far as I can tell.

/Jim

 

[FLYNZ4]

Thanks for the replies.

Regarding the 30 day rule, we will not change that. If we allow one group to post existing reservations more than 30 days ahead, other groups would feel entitled to the same thing. For example the owner who has a Christmas DVC reservation and wants to trade it to someone who has a non-DVC Hawaii reservation.

This would also be a way for those who make speculative reservations to bypass the rules for posting reservations. It would be easy to post those hard to get Christmas reservations saying they wanted to trade, but they would inevitably receive inquiries from others wanting to know if they'd just rent the reservation directly.

The only reason for wanting a resort swap is to have the 11-month window advantage at a non-home resort. With that much lead time it should not be necessary to actually make a reservation at your home resort for a specific date and then try to swap it. By having a specific date you have reduced considerably the number of people who might be able to use it. By having an open date, it becomes available to a larger percentage of members.

In fact it would make sense to post a 'swap' request well ahead of the 11-month window since the purpose of a swap is to get the home-resort advantage. If you are a VWL owner but want to stay at BWV for Christmas 2009, you really want to agree to swap with someone before those 11-month windows open. You may want a BWV villa for the 1st week in December, while a BWV owner may want the 2nd week in December at VWL. If neither of you has made the reservation yet, then the swap is possible. If you've already made the the VWL reservation for the 1st week, then the BWV owner is unable to use it. But undoubtedly you'd get others interested in renting it for cash.

Thus the 30 day rule will remain for all existing reservations, no matter what category is being used.

Hope this helps explain the policy.

I just started reading through the entire thread again... and I think that Bill is "spot on" in describing the situation that the OP is requesting. It also became obvious to me that "Paging Tom Morrow"'s request is really orthogonal to the OP's request... and if he feels strongly about it... it should be a separate and independent request. It is simply clouding the issues regarding the OP's proposal.

Personally I think OP's proposal has merit. I also agree that DisBoards, as currently set up does in fact support it. It is also my observation that the wording is confusing (IE: poor marketing)... which leads to a general level of inactivity. I think that DisBoards would be doing its subscribers a service to clarify the wording to "Home Resort Swap Wanted"... or something similar... so that the general DVC member population could take advantage of this type of activity if it was something they individually desired.

And now I am going to bed.

/Jim

 

[SuzanneSLO]

I beleive that a true swap of reservations would actually result in taxable income for most members becuase the IRS considers barter trasnaction to be jsut the same as cash transactions. The exception would be those members who use DVC for 14 nights each year and thus have it qualify as a home.

From the IRS website: "Frequently Asked Tax Questions And Answers --
Keyword: Vacation Home

I rent my home out for two weeks each year. Do I have to show the income on my return?

You must first consider if you use any dwelling as a home. You are considered to use a dwelling as a home if you use it for personal purposes during the tax year for more than the greater of 14 days or 10% of the total days it is rented to others at a fair rental price. It is possible that you will use more than one dwelling unit as a home during the year. For example, if you live in your main dwelling unit for 11 months and in your vacation home for 30 days, your main dwelling unit is a home and your vacation dwelling unit is also a home unless you rent your vacation dwelling unit to others at a fair rental value for more than 300 days during the year.

There is a special rule if you use a dwelling as a home and rent it for fewer than 15 days. In this case, do not report any of the rental income and do not deduct any expenses as rental expenses."

Any income would be offset by expenses, the largest of which is likely to be membership fees. And, of course, if the swap was for a documented business use, this would change the results as well. -- Suzanne

 

[SuzanneSLO]

. . . Right now, I have a split stay ressie for the summer. I would very much like to consolidate it into one of the two locations, but options are extremely limited. Both locations I am staying at have high demand during the period which I am booked. . . .

- Ken

I would think that the many posts already out there that list waitlists for various members for specific months could help on this issue. If there is not yet a post like this for your dates, why not get one started and see if another memebr posts with an obvious match for your dates? -- Suzanne

 

[islandtimect]

Doesn't anyone think we need a more user friendly forum for posting trades??? I'm most interested in periodically trading my home resort ressies at AKV with someone who wants to stay there and would be able to make ressies elsewhere at 11 or 10 months for me. If you don't like my spreadsheet idea, then we at least need subheadings in the Rent/Trade board so you can search for a request by month or resort. Like what they use for the sticky: Illuminations cruise ressies. There would be subheadings listing each DCV and month of the year, and you would click on the month or resort you're interested in. No searching through hundreds of postings.

 

[ZekeKelso]

Questions for the mods -

How much extra would be involved in creating a "sticky" thread where folks would post swaps wanted. The volume would probably be low enough to keep in readable, especially if all follow-up be done via PM's.

 

[FLYNZ4]

I beleive that a true swap of reservations would actually result in taxable income for most members becuase the IRS considers barter trasnaction to be jsut the same as cash transactions. The exception would be those members who use DVC for 14 nights each year and thus have it qualify as a home.

From the IRS website: "Frequently Asked Tax Questions And Answers --
Keyword: Vacation Home

I rent my home out for two weeks each year. Do I have to show the income on my return?

You must first consider if you use any dwelling as a home. You are considered to use a dwelling as a home if you use it for personal purposes during the tax year for more than the greater of 14 days or 10% of the total days it is rented to others at a fair rental price. It is possible that you will use more than one dwelling unit as a home during the year. For example, if you live in your main dwelling unit for 11 months and in your vacation home for 30 days, your main dwelling unit is a home and your vacation dwelling unit is also a home unless you rent your vacation dwelling unit to others at a fair rental value for more than 300 days during the year.

There is a special rule if you use a dwelling as a home and rent it for fewer than 15 days. In this case, do not report any of the rental income and do not deduct any expenses as rental expenses."

Any income would be offset by expenses, the largest of which is likely to be membership fees. And, of course, if the swap was for a documented business use, this would change the results as well. -- Suzanne

Suzanne,

Go back in this thread and read one of my earlier posts in this thread.. I just spent the weekend with two IRS tax auditors... and their feedback was in direct contrast to yours. Edited to add: I cut/paste the section below so you would not have to find it.

The "special rule" you state is the Augusta Rule that I mentioned. This one is tricky...but I understand it was put into place (and thus nicknamed) because a bunch of wealthy people wanted the exemption when they rented their houses for "The Masters".

In any case... the tax consequences (if any) are also orthogonal to one's desire to swap home resort booking windows... and should not factor into the decisions of the management of this site to facilitate this suggestion. Clearly regular point rentals have much higher tax consequences.

/Jim

Crisi,

I have bee wondering about this reply... but I have not felt qualified to comment.

We happen to be spending the weekend with two IRS auditors. We are not in a grueling audit... instead they are a husband/wife who are friends of ours spending time at at our beach condo

I asked about this and other situations. THIS IS NOT SPECIFIC TAX ADVICE, I AM NOT A TAX ACCOUNTANT, A TAX ATTORNEY, NOR DO I PLAY ONE ON TV.

I asked the following series of questions:

1) If I rented out my condo for cash, and then used the proceeds to rent-in a different condo... is the cash taxable - YES

2) If you and I did the same thing and we randomly rented each other's condo's are both of our cash transactions taxable - YES

3) If you and I did exchanged our condos... same day day, same condo type, same value etc.. simply a key swap is it a taxable transaction - NO (considered a "like exchange")

4) If you and I exchanged similar or dissimilar (within reason) condos... different time (ie:You use my 1BR in Dec, I take you 2BR in Nov) would this be a taxable event - NO (considered a "like exchange")

5) If we swapped condos as in item 4 above... but there was a cash transaction to compensate for different values... would it be a taxable transaction - YES.. the "boot" portion (ie: actual money transaction) would be taxable.

Finally... there is something called the Augusta rule... that gives an exclusion for up to a 14 day rental in certain circumstances... but alas our IRS auditor friends did not bring their tax books with them on vacation.

Once again: DO NOT USE THE ABOVE GENERAL GUIDANCE FOR YOUR SPECIFIC TAX PLANNING

/Jim

 

[SuzanneSLO]

Suzanne,

Go back in this thread and read one of my earlier posts in this thread.. I just spent the weekend with two IRS tax auditors... and their feedback was in direct contrast to yours. Edited to add: I cut/paste the section below so you would not have to find it.

The "special rule" you state is the Augusta Rule that I mentioned. This one is tricky...but I understand it was put into place (and thus nicknamed) because a bunch of wealthy people wanted the exemption when they rented their houses for "The Masters".

In any case... the tax consequences (if any) are also orthogonal to one's desire to swap home resort booking windows... and should not factor into the decisions of the management of this site to facilitate this suggestion. Clearly regular point rentals have much higher tax consequences.

/Jim

Jim: I am also not a tax accountant, so I just quoted directly from the IRS website. Your friends may have a better feeling about how the IRS actually enforces these rules. My guess is that auditing folks to find undisclosed rental income from timeshares is pretty low priority at the IRS.

To follow up on the barter issue, the IRS website says that "Bartering is an exchange of property or services. You must include in your income, at the time received, the fair market value of property or services you receive in bartering. For additional information, Refer to Tax Topic 420 - Bartering Income."

As a result, I would suspect that a rental of a reservation and swap of a reservation should result in the exact same tax consequences: income equal to amount received (cash or fair market value) minus costs of points used (probably the maintanance fees).

As you noted, however, this really has no impact on wheterh a separate Board is needed ot facilitate such transactions. -- Suzanne