Staying single to collect welfare benefits

[OceanAnnie]

Can we come to some agreement here? Yes, there are people who lie and cheat the welfare system. Just as there are people that lie and cheat on their taxes (or just flat out don't pay them: The IRS has a huge gap between what taxpayers should pay and what is collected and have estimated that the annual net tax gap — the amount of taxes that go unidentified and uncollected each year — amounts to nearly $300 billion), lie and cheat on their spouses, lie and cheat whenever an opportunity comes up to allow them to lie and cheat. I don't like liars or cheaters, and I doubt that anyone does. Many of us also don't like liars or cheaters who try to justify their lying and cheating.

For some reason the issue that prompted this post causes more ire than when lying or cheating is tied to another issue. There have been oodles of threads on this topic over the years. They all end up bashing the majority of people on welfare. I honestly don't feel that the majority of people on welfare are lying or cheating. Every thread here on this issue takes a turn away from lying and cheating to harp on people who are on welfare for long periods of time, and how they spend their money, regardless if they actually qualify for these programs or not, or happen to be honest people.

I also think that there are many who respond to these kind of threads need to education themselves more about the culture of poverty. Middle class culture and the culture of those in poverty are like night and day, and those of us blessed enough to not be poor have a very difficult time understanding or relating to the thought processes of those who have grown up poor and know nothing else. It is easy for so many to point our well-fed fingers and tell others to "pick themselves up by the bootstraps" because those doing the finger pointing have the skills and knowledge to allow them to do so. I am saddened when I read how judgmental and uncompassionate some in our society have become.

I agree wholeheartedly. It is a cultural difference and in a lot of cases generations grow up entrenched in the culture of poverty. It's all some have known. It's an awful cycle.

 

[shrubber]

I know our local officals have mande many, many trips at taxpayer expense to court new business into the area. They have been to Germany and France prticularly this year. They bring those executives here at taxpayer expense as well.

Hadn't thought of that...
But people would prefer that their elected officials not solicite new business enterprises? I don't understand.

 

[Colleen27]

Your dad deserves lots of admiration for what he did! Both of my parents have similar backgrounds. I think the thing that really is different today is that there are very few working class jobs that you can live on now. My dad had no college degree and came from a poor family but he was able to get a job at a mill that paid well and provided benefits, and it was stable. There were lots of jobs that allowed people (men mostly) w/o education to make a living and become part of the middle class (or like my family, lower middle class), they are few and far between now. I am a social worker and have worked with many families collecting welfare. Most of them weren't cheating the system and if they were, it was something like babysitting and getting paid cash (a few $$ a week). Yes, there were 'lifers' and people who were absolutely cheating. But most of the people I worked with felt trapped. They wanted to work but it was not worth it to get off welfare and make $6 an hour, have to pay for child care (I am aware that there is help available but it's not always practical) and lose their insurance. I think if we had more quality jobs for people to work, we'd have way less people who need assistance.

Well said.

My grandfather lived the American dream... He dropped out of school to help support his family during the Depression, but still got a good, though physically demanding, blue collar job that provided health insurance, a pension, and a good enough wage to buy a home and put his girls through college. That dream just doesn't exist any more... Now, that same company pays $8/hour, family insurance runs about 25% of a line worker's paycheck, and there's no pension so employees are expected to come up with something to contribute to a 401k out of what is left.

 

[princessmom29]

Can we come to some agreement here? Yes, there are people who lie and cheat the welfare system. Just as there are people that lie and cheat on their taxes (or just flat out don't pay them: The IRS has a huge gap between what taxpayers should pay and what is collected and have estimated that the annual net tax gap — the amount of taxes that go unidentified and uncollected each year — amounts to nearly $300 billion), lie and cheat on their spouses, lie and cheat whenever an opportunity comes up to allow them to lie and cheat. I don't like liars or cheaters, and I doubt that anyone does. Many of us also don't like liars or cheaters who try to justify their lying and cheating.

For some reason the issue that prompted this post causes more ire than when lying or cheating is tied to another issue. There have been oodles of threads on this topic over the years. They all end up bashing the majority of people on welfare. I honestly don't feel that the majority of people on welfare are lying or cheating. Every thread here on this issue takes a turn away from lying and cheating to harp on people who are on welfare for long periods of time, and how they spend their money, regardless if they actually qualify for these programs or not, or happen to be honest people.

I also think that there are many who respond to these kind of threads need to education themselves more about the culture of poverty. Middle class culture and the culture of those in poverty are like night and day, and those of us blessed enough to not be poor have a very difficult time understanding or relating to the thought processes of those who have grown up poor and know nothing else. It is easy for so many to point our well-fed fingers and tell others to "pick themselves up by the bootstraps" because those doing the finger pointing have the skills and knowledge to allow them to do so. I am saddened when I read how judgmental and uncompassionate some in our society have become.

I realize that the culture of poverty is a powerful thing, but don't you think that something needs to be done to change that, and to give people the skills to get out? Until the system forces people to gain the skilss necessary to get out it will not change. We cannot continue to support and enable the culture of poverty. Until the money is cut off and people are froced into educational porgams to gain job, life, and money managment skills, nothing is going to change. As long as there is enough cashflow to live on coming in, the cultrue of poverty says "you are ok, so why bother to try and do better? Just continue as you are, and milk the system for more if you can" This is the message my kids at school get from their homes, their neighborhoods, and their friends. Until we act to change that, any real effort to help will be largely uselss. I do what I can in school, but I am fighting a losing battle because everyone else says dependence on the state is the way to go. If we can make it a necessity for survival to get out, get some education, and get a job we can change the pervasive attitude that dependence on the system is the only option. I really feel that the only way to change it is to force people to work if they want food, clothing, or housing because the culture these kids are living is says that if you can get these things without working, then why bother.

 

[luvsJack]

Can we come to some agreement here? Yes, there are people who lie and cheat the welfare system. Just as there are people that lie and cheat on their taxes (or just flat out don't pay them: The IRS has a huge gap between what taxpayers should pay and what is collected and have estimated that the annual net tax gap — the amount of taxes that go unidentified and uncollected each year — amounts to nearly $300 billion), lie and cheat on their spouses, lie and cheat whenever an opportunity comes up to allow them to lie and cheat. I don't like liars or cheaters, and I doubt that anyone does. Many of us also don't like liars or cheaters who try to justify their lying and cheating.

For some reason the issue that prompted this post causes more ire than when lying or cheating is tied to another issue. There have been oodles of threads on this topic over the years. They all end up bashing the majority of people on welfare. I honestly don't feel that the majority of people on welfare are lying or cheating. Every thread here on this issue takes a turn away from lying and cheating to harp on people who are on welfare for long periods of time, and how they spend their money, regardless if they actually qualify for these programs or not, or happen to be honest people.

I also think that there are many who respond to these kind of threads need to education themselves more about the culture of poverty. Middle class culture and the culture of those in poverty are like night and day, and those of us blessed enough to not be poor have a very difficult time understanding or relating to the thought processes of those who have grown up poor and know nothing else. It is easy for so many to point our well-fed fingers and tell others to "pick themselves up by the bootstraps" because those doing the finger pointing have the skills and knowledge to allow them to do so. I am saddened when I read how judgmental and uncompassionate some in our society have become.

Very well said and ITA.

 

[Colleen27]

I agree with you 100%. Trouble is most people live comfortable little lives in nice towns and have never seen,met or lived with the kind of people you are describing. I have and I did live and work with the types you are describing and you are correct. Until you have truly and I don't mean seen on TV or read about it worked with these situations in true poverty area you have no real understanding.

I disagree. The trouble is that people who have worked in the worst of the worst environments see only the lifers, the addicts, the neglectful, the ignorant, the lazy, and extrapolate that to the whole of the population helped by our social safety net. And the politicians and the media have done a great job of making that the image the average, middle class American in their comfortable town associates with poverty - not the family next door, dealing with multiple layoffs and now trying to make ends meet by cobbling together a few low-wage, part time jobs that just don't quite cut it, but the inner city woman with children by several fathers, wearing flashy jewelry, name brand clothes, and manicured nails while waiting in line for her food stamps.

I've worked with the poor, both in one of the poorest cities in our nation and in the small community where I now live, and I don't doubt Princessmom's experiences. There are absolutely pockets where that is the norm, but those people don't represent the effect of the system as a whole.

 

[threecrazykids]

I realize that the culture of poverty is a powerful thing, but don't you think that something needs to be done to change that, and to give people the skills to get out? Until the system forces people to gain the skilss necessary to get out it will not change. We cannot continue to support and enable the culture of poverty. Until the money is cut off and people are froced into educational porgams to gain job, life, and money managment skills, nothing is going to change. As long as there is enough cashflow to live on coming in, the cultrue of poverty says "you are ok, so why bother to try and do better? Just continue as you are, and milk the system for more if you can" This is the message my kids at school get from their homes, their neighborhoods, and their friends. Until we act to change that, any real effort to help will be largely uselss. I do what I can in school, but I am fighting a losing battle because everyone else says dependence on the state is the way to go. If we can make it a necessity for survival to get out, get some education, and get a job we can change the pervasive attitude that dependence on the system is the only option. I really feel that the only way to change it is to force people to work if they want food, clothing, or housing because the culture these kids are living is says that if you can get these things without working, then why bother.

I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Darsa]

I also think that there are many who respond to these kind of threads need to education themselves more about the culture of poverty. Middle class culture and the culture of those in poverty are like night and day, and those of us blessed enough to not be poor have a very difficult time understanding or relating to the thought processes of those who have grown up poor and know nothing else. It is easy for so many to point our well-fed fingers and tell others to "pick themselves up by the bootstraps" because those doing the finger pointing have the skills and knowledge to allow them to do so. I am saddened when I read how judgmental and uncompassionate some in our society have become.

I could not agree more. As someone who's been on both sides of the tracks, it angers and disappoints me that my fellow man treats others, and judges others, in such a way.

 

[Colleen27]

PLease clarify how we spend taxpayers dollars to bring in business?

Our elected officials court executives, often wining & dining them to make the area look attractive. Then we put together a package of subsidies to offset building, utility, and property tax costs to convince them this is the best place to build. In suburban areas where there are many communities closely clustered, they'll often choose new store locations based in part on who is willing to offer the best incentives.

Personally, I feel those efforts should be reserved for businesses that will bring good jobs to the community and not extended to companies we will further subsidize via the welfare system. It makes sense to court Toyota. Not so much to attract Walmart.

 

[Colleen27]

Sorry for the rant but people do in fact get enough money to live high on the hog. I have seen it many many times. I have had it with the braggign about the assistance, heck I even got offered once for someone to "school" me on how to work the system because they felt bad I was working so hard to support my family.

The maximum food stamp allotment for a family of 4 is $668 (I might be off by a few dollars, because I think it changed with the stimulus package, but this was right as of early 2009). That's about 1.85 per person, per meal - not "high on the hog" by any means.

 

[threecrazykids]

The maximum food stamp allotment for a family of 4 is $668 (I might be off by a few dollars, because I think it changed with the stimulus package, but this was right as of early 2009). That's about 1.85 per person, per meal - not "high on the hog" by any means.

I have a family of 5, both my husband and I work what would be considered "above average jobs" in our area and our budget for food for the month is $400-$450 a month...so $668 for a family of 4 I would consider pretty dang good eatin'.

 

[princessmom29]

I have a family of 5, both my husband and I work what would be considered "above average jobs" in our area and our budget for food for the month is $400-$450 a month...so $668 for a family of 4 I would consider pretty dang good eatin'.

exactly. I spend between 400-500 a month as well. We could have a lot more steark, seafood, and junk with that extra money that I don't buy.

 

[Colleen27]

So you can feel stuck and hopeless and DO something about it, or you can feel stuck and hopeless and continue to work the system.

The thing is, a lot of people don't know HOW to do something about it, and not just those that grew up in the "culture of poverty". Two of the largest industries in my area have all but collapsed, and there are a lot of hard working, honest people out of work and on assistance right now who have no idea where to even begin... The skills and education they have are worthless, retraining takes money they don't have, and right now there are just no jobs available, not even fast food, retail, or other low-wage, part-time work.

 

[lovin diz]

I could not agree more. As someone who's been on both sides of the tracks, it angers and disappoints me that my fellow man treats others, and judges others, in such a way.

This is why i dont understand why you are not upset...(i think it was you??)

With what you are going through doesnt it make up angry that if you applied for help you would be denied...when you seem to really need it--but there are people milking the system to get all they can by lying about things???

Again i am not saying help should not be there...I think the intensions of the help was great...It has become a crutch for the lazy though

 

[Missy1961]

Can we come to some agreement here? Yes, there are people who lie and cheat the welfare system. Just as there are people that lie and cheat on their taxes (or just flat out don't pay them: The IRS has a huge gap between what taxpayers should pay and what is collected and have estimated that the annual net tax gap — the amount of taxes that go unidentified and uncollected each year — amounts to nearly $300 billion), lie and cheat on their spouses, lie and cheat whenever an opportunity comes up to allow them to lie and cheat. I don't like liars or cheaters, and I doubt that anyone does. Many of us also don't like liars or cheaters who try to justify their lying and cheating.

For some reason the issue that prompted this post causes more ire than when lying or cheating is tied to another issue. There have been oodles of threads on this topic over the years. They all end up bashing the majority of people on welfare. I honestly don't feel that the majority of people on welfare are lying or cheating. Every thread here on this issue takes a turn away from lying and cheating to harp on people who are on welfare for long periods of time, and how they spend their money, regardless if they actually qualify for these programs or not, or happen to be honest people.

I also think that there are many who respond to these kind of threads need to education themselves more about the culture of poverty. Middle class culture and the culture of those in poverty are like night and day, and those of us blessed enough to not be poor have a very difficult time understanding or relating to the thought processes of those who have grown up poor and know nothing else. It is easy for so many to point our well-fed fingers and tell others to "pick themselves up by the bootstraps" because those doing the finger pointing have the skills and knowledge to allow them to do so. I am saddened when I read how judgmental and uncompassionate some in our society have become.

Very well said!

 

[Mermaid02]

My bil was telling us about an electrical engineer he works with who lives with a woman (has for over 10 years) but they aren't married (although she wears a big honking diamond wedding set and they refer to each other as husband and wife) She gets all the freebies that go along with being a single Mom (has 2 kids that aren't his) food stamps, housing, MaineCare etc. While her "dh" brings in an incredibly nice income. He even claims her kids on his taxes. Makes you feel like reporting them......... oh, and the guy brags about how good they have it.

 

[Colleen27]

I have a family of 5, both my husband and I work what would be considered "above average jobs" in our area and our budget for food for the month is $400-$450 a month...so $668 for a family of 4 I would consider pretty dang good eatin'.

I guess I'm just not very frugal or too picky or something because I spend WAY more than that for our family of 5. We buy our beef & pork in bulk from the farm and I grow a lot of our veggies, but I still spend about $100/week on what I do buy - mostly dairy, poultry, fresh produce, and the occasional seafood, along with the packaged stuff like peanut butter, ketchup, coffee/tea, etc. The food stamp allotments would be a much more frugal way of eating than I'd choose, and I'd have a hard time with some of the tradeoffs that have to be made to stay within that budget.

 

[Metsfan520]

I have a family of 5, both my husband and I work what would be considered "above average jobs" in our area and our budget for food for the month is $400-$450 a month...so $668 for a family of 4 I would consider pretty dang good eatin'.

That may be true for where you live. You may have 3 or 4 different supermarket to shop at, you may also have Walmart or a Super Target. But in most poorer neighborhoods, they are lucky if there is one supermarket. And they don't double coupons, have loss leaders, etc. It's harder to find bargains under those conditions.

 

[luvsJack]

I guess I'm just not very frugal or too picky or something because I spend WAY more than that for our family of 5. We buy our beef & pork in bulk from the farm and I grow a lot of our veggies, but I still spend about $100/week on what I do buy - mostly dairy, poultry, fresh produce, and the occasional seafood, along with the packaged stuff like peanut butter, ketchup, coffee/tea, etc. The food stamp allotments would be a much more frugal way of eating than I'd choose, and I'd have a hard time with some of the tradeoffs that have to be made to stay within that budget.

I agree. I spend right at or more than $600 a month for 3 of us (with 2-3 more eating with us a few times a month). My grocery bill is very rarely below $120 per week and usually closer to $180 and even then I have to stop and pick up bread, milk or something else I have forgotten. I do not buy steak, shrimp or any thing of the like either. We had steak Easter weekend and that was the first time since last summer.

One has to remember that staying within a budget also takes being taught and learning good habits. Not everyone that received food stamps is going to just automaticaly know how to do that nor will they automatically know the cheapest way to cook something.

 

[blanq]

I realize that the culture of poverty is a powerful thing, but don't you think that something needs to be done to change that, and to give people the skills to get out? Until the system forces people to gain the skilss necessary to get out it will not change. We cannot continue to support and enable the culture of poverty. Until the money is cut off and people are froced into educational porgams to gain job, life, and money managment skills, nothing is going to change. As long as there is enough cashflow to live on coming in, the cultrue of poverty says "you are ok, so why bother to try and do better? Just continue as you are, and milk the system for more if you can" This is the message my kids at school get from their homes, their neighborhoods, and their friends. Until we act to change that, any real effort to help will be largely uselss. I do what I can in school, but I am fighting a losing battle because everyone else says dependence on the state is the way to go. If we can make it a necessity for survival to get out, get some education, and get a job we can change the pervasive attitude that dependence on the system is the only option. I really feel that the only way to change it is to force people to work if they want food, clothing, or housing because the culture these kids are living is says that if you can get these things without working, then why bother.

Oh, I absolutely agree with you that something needs to be done to change that and give people the skills necessary to get out of the "system" where they can and should. In some instances, people and families may always need our help and through no fault of their own. I believe that history has shown that in many instances throwing money at the problem does not work. I also agree with you that education is a key to solving our long term poverty issues but it is a difficult one because of cost and will. In the old AFDC days, when there were no lifetime limits for cash assistance, there were people who stayed on assistance and went on to complete higher education (and there were also those who just were allowed to keep getting their monthly welfare checks, and hence we created generational welfare situations). With welfare reform in the mid-1990's the focus moved away from higher education to work. Finishing high school or obtaining a GED still is emphasized. But, the emphasis is get a job, any job, and not necessarily on skill development to help someone's long term earning potential. What happens now is we see a lot of people who have low paying jobs and have a hard time getting beyond them. They make enough to perhaps get off of cash assistance, but not enough to get off of medical assistance or food stamps, and end up being reliant on the government as a result. But the system we do have now means that about 8 million less people per year receive cash public assistance than was the case a decade ago.

I don't have the answers. I have more questions than answers. The issue is complex. I can tell you it's not hiring more government workers to make sure that food stamp recipents buy lettuce and not Cheetos, or to make sure cash assistance recipients pay their rent and not buy a cell phone. Also, I know I don't want to live in a country like India, where there is no safety net and millions of young and old live on the streets. In the meantime, until someone comes up with a better solution, I can live with a flawed system that does include some cheating (as I can and do live with the cheating that happens in virtually every other system in this country) as the thought of just doing away with it altogether is a scarier proposition.