Stanley "Tookie" Williams

[Miranda Danda]

I think that a lot of these guys live a lot longer on death row than they would have ever lived n the streets. What is the life expectancy of young gang members anyway?

That's a really good point, missypie. Although, sometimes it seems like more innocent people are killed by gangs than actual gang members (the ones who deserve it). It's very sad.

 

[Tigger_Magic]

This will be an unpopular opinion based on the responses so far, but from what I've read about Tookie Williams, he appears to have saved a few kids from choosing a life of crime or to stop their current life of crime. Putting him to death will not bring back his victims but perhaps keeping him locked away for the rest of his life and allowing him to continue with his newfound ways will prevent others from following his evil past.

I'd rather keep murderers locked away forever with no chance of parole than kill them.

Just my .02.

Just a few questions. When did Tookie ever renounce the gang he formed? When did he ever cooperate with law enforcement to help the fight against gang violence? Where is the substantive evidence that the few copies of his books that were sold actually stopped anyone from turning to life in a gang? Where is the evidence of his becoming a model prisoner while in jail? When did he ever express a moment's remorse for his crimes?

Newfound ways? Yeah, right. San Quentin is not that far away from Hollywood and Tookie knew how to create a believable fantasy of being a reformed person if it'd help him save his sorry life for a few more days.

 

[Geoff_M]

As I mentioned above, I'm a "reluctant" supporter of the Death Penalty... meaning that I'm not wholely comfortable with it. Frankly, I think we, as a nation, should never be completely comfortable with it. I don't think being completely "gung ho" with it would be good for our nation.

As for the late Mr. Williams, I'm certain that one of the following two options were true:
1) He committed the murders.
2) He didn't, but knew who did. And refused to provide authorities with information about the crimes.
Either way, that put him on Death Row by this own actions... or inactions.

As for the issue of clemency, here's another thought. Williams wasn't the first hardened criminal to turn over a new leaf while incarcerated. Others have participated in youth out-reach programs such as "Scared Straight". So how is it that Williams should have been able to use his "celebrity" status as the founder of a notorious gang to be spared, when there are other reformed "gang bangers" that don't have media stars making pleas on their behalf??? Would that have been "fair" to the inmates that aren't "celebrity" convicts?

 

[Tigger_Magic]

For those who think Tookie deserved another chance or even clemency, here's a snippet from ABCNews that is rather enlightening:

Witnesses at the trial said he boasted about the killings, stating "You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him." Williams then made a growling noise and laughed for five to six minutes, according to the transcript that the governor referenced in his denial of clemency.

Also according to Fox News, after the verdict was read at his trial, apparently the oh-so-innocent Tookie mouthed "I'm going to get all of you (expletive deleted)" to the jurors.

These are the actions of an innocent man?

 

[#1MMFan]

For those who think Tookie deserved another chance or even clemency, here's a snippet from ABCNews that is rather enlightening: Also according to Fox News, after the verdict was read at his trial, apparently the oh-so-innocent Tookie mouthed "I'm going to get all of you (expletive deleted)" to the jurors.

These are the actions of an innocent man?

I don't know the ins and outs of the whole case etc., but for me it doesn't seem to be exclusively about the crimes, but also about what has happened since and whether or not you believe he had reformed himself. Sure he may have said those things 26 yrs ago (or however long it is) but obviously he hasn't gotten any of the jurors, and years later he seems to have changed to some degree. I don't think we are contesting his original innocence/guilt, even if he maintained his innocence.

 

[cats7494]

Well –I am obviously going against the opinions of most of the people on this thread. I am saddened that he was executed. I am completely opposed to the death penalty.
Not that I think he was rehabilitated - but because I do not believe that we have the right to decide who dies and who does not.

 

[Tigger_Magic]

I don't know the ins and outs of the whole case etc., but for me it doesn't seem to be exclusively about the crimes, but also about what has happened since and whether or not you believe he had reformed himself. Sure he may have said those things 26 yrs ago (or however long it is) but obviously he hasn't gotten any of the jurors, and years later he seems to have changed to some degree. I don't think we are contesting his original innocence/guilt, even if he maintained his innocence.

I would then direct you to post #62 above. Maybe you'd care to consider those questions? If Mr. Williams were so reformed, why is there such limited evidence of this reform?

Lots of people "reform" or find "redemption" while on death row. It's the same as "foxhole conversions." When faced with the reality of one's life ending on a date certain, some people will do anything in an attempt to avoid the ultimate punishment.

However, there is no reform or redemption without acknowledgement of having committed a crime in the first place. Williams was defiant until he last breath. Never a moment's remorse for ending the lives of 4 innocent people for absolutely no reason. Never a single word renouncing the Crips or his affiliation with them. Not a single prison worker to speak one word of praise about his behavior in prison.

I find it very hard to believe he changed at all, especially after listening to the witnesses who observed his execution. Even to the end he was trying to be the intimidator, the uber-gang-banger. We are better off without him.

 

[#1MMFan]

We are better off without him.

Oh, I'm sorry, you obviously met the man in prison and he clearly had a negative effect on your quality of life. I'm mistaken. You are right, he was so dangerous to the public at large while he was in prison.

 

[Bob Slydell]

Oh, I'm sorry, you obviously met the man in prison and he clearly had a negative effect on your quality of life. I'm mistaken. You are right, he was so dangerous to the public at large while he was in prison.

I take it by this statement, this means you have met Tookie and know him to be a kind, caring, rehabilitated man?

 

[KAMLEM]

Does the fact that he claims he is innocent (and has since day 1) and his story has never changed (even though his heart apparently has) mean anything?

Yes, it means that he was a good liar. Just because he lied consistently doesn't mean he was innocent.

 

[Tigger_Magic]

Oh, I'm sorry, you obviously met the man in prison and he clearly had a negative effect on your quality of life. I'm mistaken. You are right, he was so dangerous to the public at large while he was in prison.

Today CA taxpayers have one less thug to maintain and Tookie finally was punished for his crimes. At least in this instance, justice delayed was not justice denied.

 

[Tigger_Magic]

Yes, it means that he was a good liar. Just because he lied consistently doesn't mean he was innocent.

If I had a dollar for every convict who claimed to be innocent, I could retire today a very wealthy man. The reality is that after 26 years his legal team and supporters couldn't find a single shred of evidence to support his claims of innocence. Now that tells me something.

 

[Bob Slydell]

If I had a dollar for every convict who claimed to be innocent, I could retire today a very wealthy man. The reality is that after 26 years his legal team and supporters couldn't find a single shred of evidence to support his claims of innocence. Now that tells me something.

Add in all the "rehabilitated" murderers and you could really live well in retirement.

 

[#1MMFan]

I know, sitting in prison isn't really "punishment". We should let the people up on lesser charges know that they aren't getting punished going to prison. It's one big holiday.

 

[Tigger_Magic]

Add in all the "rehabilitated" murderers and you could really live well in retirement.

Thanks, but I'm not that greedy. However, I do see and agree with your point.

And before my thoughts are taken and twisted out of context again , I do believe that some people can and do experience rehabilitation, some people do reform, some people do find redemption, even on death row. However, finding any and/or all of these does not negate the fact that individuals deserve to be punished for the crimes of which they are justly convicted.

 

[Tigger_Magic]

I know, sitting in prison isn't really "punishment". We should let the people up on lesser charges know that they aren't getting punished going to prison. It's one big holiday.

The punishment should fit the crime. Most crimes are appropriately punished by the loss of one's freedom and privileges for a set amount of time. Some crimes, such as Williams', are appropriately punished by the death penalty. JMO.

 

[#1MMFan]

JMO.

Those last three letters are the first thing you've said with which I agree. JMHO.

 

[toto2]

I will go on a limed ( sorry for spelling !) on this one.

I will first say that I am against the death penality.

Secondly , I am not a believer.

But , it is my understanding that ( And I am making a generalisation here) that most conservatives are pro-death penality and most liberals are anti-death penality. I will then generalise by saying that a lot of conservatives are christians , as in " the USA is a christian Nation". That would suppose that , for the USA , God should be the one ultimatly decides who is wrong and who is right. We can makes laws that will put away criminals , but ultimatly , it would be god who will judge. It is not man job to k kill ! " You shall not kill" is a pretty strong commandment , and a lot of christians would want to have the ten commendmants displayed in public spaces , like court houses and city hall and school. I am not a believer and think this commendment is one of the most important in the book ! If it is a commendment , comming directly comming from god , who are you to decide ( a christian jury , a christian judge , achristian citizen , a christian governor) to decide to againts God will and kill someone ?

 

[Tigger_Magic]

I will go on a limed ( sorry for spelling !) on this one.

I will first say that I am against the death penality.

Secondly , I am not a believer.

But , it is my understanding that ( And I am making a generalisation here) that most conservatives are pro-death penality and most liberals are anti-death penality. I will then generalise by saying that a lot of conservatives are christians , as in " the USA is a christian Nation". That would suppose that , for the USA , God should be the one ultimatly decides who is wrong and who is right. We can makes laws that will put away criminals , but ultimatly , it would be god who will judge. It is not man job to k kill ! " You shall not kill" is a pretty strong commandment , and a lot of christians would want to have the ten commendmants displayed in public spaces , like court houses and city hall and school. I am not a believer and think this commendment is one of the most important in the book ! If it is a commendment , comming directly comming from god , who are you to decide ( a christian jury , a christian judge , achristian citizen , a christian governor) to decide to againts God will and kill someone ?

In this particular verse, the Hebrew word translated "kill" would be better translated as "murder." I believe the Bible draws a clear distinction (when one considers the context of the whole Bible) between the premeditated killing of an innocent human and the state's lawful execution of someone who committed the crime of murder. The two are not interchangable.

 

[goofygirl]

Tookie Williams was just someone playing the "Kid Card."


"I *care* about kids, I was wrong and I wanna show them right, so I wrote some kids' books, so now you please let me live, I'm *entitled*! Nevermind that I killed 4 people in cold blood! oh I CAARRREEE about the KYYDDSSS."

yeah, right.

Enter the dopey celebs who want to jump on this bandwagon (or shall I say TRAINWRECK)

I guess the God Card didn't work, or maybe he tried it already- you know, the old "I found God, I'm a chaaaanged maaayyn , so let me be! Nevermind that I KILLED a bunch of people..."

Anyway...he's dead now. This is the first sensible thing I have seen Ah-nold do.

I also think the Nobel Peace Prize Committee has lost all credibility. The gave one to Arafat, and one to this gangbanger, I mean what the ???!! I think its time for them to retire!