SSR: monorail resort?

[El&Asmom]

There's a post on the resorts board discussing interesting, not well known facts about WDW resorts.
A couple of people posted that there is a clause in the SSR contract stating that a monorail connection can be built to the resort.
I think I'd see pigs flying sooner than a monorail at SSR. It would be nice, but it isn't going to happen.

 

[stopher1]

It's true that there is a monorail easement, going way back into the late '70's when the monorail was supposed to run over to what at that time was the shopping village that has become what we know as DTD. Obviously never happened, but nevertheless, the language is still there.

 

[Horace Horsecollar]

Yesterland had an article on this subject. It's the second urban legend in the following article... and it's true!

http://www.yesterland.com/monoraillegends.html

 

[hakepb]

It's true that there is a monorail easement, going way back into the late '70's when the monorail was supposed to run over to what at that time was the shopping village that has become what we know as DTD. Obviously never happened, but nevertheless, the language is still there.

DW continually complains that DTD ruined what used to be the wonderfully quaint (sp?) Lake Buena Vista shopping villiage.

I did think that all WDW resorts had a monorail easement. It would be wonderful if they could establish more monorail routes, but I think it would require a massive increase in fuel charges..

 

[Chuck S]

DW continually complains that DTD ruined what used to be the wonderfully quaint (sp?) Lake Buena Vista shopping villiage.

I did think that all WDW resorts had a monorail easement. It would be wonderful if they could establish more monorail routes, but I think it would require a massive increase in fuel charges..

Not necessarily fuel charges, as the monorails are electric and pretty efficient per passenger mile once they are operating. The initial construction cost, though, is enormous. I'm sure if Disney could justify the long term amortized construction costs vs. the cost of bus transportation, there would be monorails or other light rail system, like peoplemover or an airport-like automated system.

It's a shame the old Fort Wilderness Trains were left to rot, they would have been a neat transportation system from OKW > Port Orleans > Treehouses > SSR > DtD.

 

[dianeschlicht]

Well a monorail to DTD would certainly ease the bus crunch that SSR feels from those who either park at DTD or SSR and hitch a ride on the SSR buses.

 

[El&Asmom]

Yesterland had an article on this subject. It's the second urban legend in the following article... and it's true!

http://www.yesterland.com/monoraillegends.html

Thanks, that was a cool article.

 

[gmboy95]

I always hear that building new monorail spurs would be so expensive...however i am wondering what the expense would be....the existing lines seem simple enough. it is not exactly like you are building a high rise???

There is some land clearing, but i wonder why it is so cost prohibitive???.....I agree that must be the reason, or else they would have expanded the system like they have expanded everything else

 

[Chuck S]

The relatively wet/soggy Florida soil also it a factor in cost. The beam supports have to be driven to bedrock to safely support the weight/vibrations of moving trains. This is one reason the Fort Wilderness steam line was closed, the track was unstable and would cost too much to re-do. The trains were derailing fairly often.

 

[tjkraz]

I always hear that building new monorail spurs would be so expensive...however i am wondering what the expense would be....the existing lines seem simple enough. it is not exactly like you are building a high rise???

There is some land clearing, but i wonder why it is so cost prohibitive???.....I agree that must be the reason, or else they would have expanded the system like they have expanded everything else

The Las Vegas monorail was extended 4 miles a few years back and I've read cost estimates in the $700-900 million range. Part of that could be land acquisition...I have no idea how it breaks-down. But I'm inclined to believe that building on Nevada desert is a bit easier than Florida swampland.

Cost aside, I've never been able to wrap my head around the idea of converting all of Disney transportation to monorails. Buses work well because they give you direct point-to-point transportation, they are flexible (you can redirect excess capacity when lines get long or when theme parks close) and they have inherent redundancies (one bus breakdown doesn't impact the rest of the system a single bit.)

Unless you have multiple redundant tracks and stations, a single monorail breakdown can bring the system to a standstill for minutes or hours. (And even when you do have redundancies, breakdowns would dramatically reduce capacity.)

Many resorts are so big that they have 5-7 bus stops but they would certainly get only a single monorail station. So guests would have to walk a lot more.

While buses go directly from one point to another, monorails would have to run in loops meaning that guests could end up making a dozen or more stops before arriving at their destination, and most would have to disembark and change trains (which means even more travel/wait time.)

Those are just a few of the issues that I envision. I think monorails are nice as a compliment to the buses and boat service, but they could never be implemented as a resort-wide transportation solution. That fact alone is what keeps Disney from investing any more money in the system. Why put hundreds of millions into expanding the monorail track when--aside from a few routing issues--buses work fine? Even the "green" argument doesn't hold water because Disney could easily invest in any number of more eco-friendly bus systems without hitting the monorail roadblocks.

 

[Sammie]

I have never gotten stuck on a bus from SSR to anywhere. I have however gotten stuck several times on the monorail. I will stick with the buses.

 

[stopher1]

I think monorails are nice as a compliment to the buses and boat service, but they could never be implemented as a resort-wide transportation solution.

Yes they are. I would never want to completely eliminate another form of transportation just to have the monorail since they all work fairly well in tandem with one another - but it sure would be nice to have another line that runs from the TTC somewhere else - whether DTD or down to the AK area. I don't see it happening, but I'm just saying, having some additional options would be nice.

 

[cheezNE1]

I always hear that building new monorail spurs would be so expensive...however i am wondering what the expense would be....the existing lines seem simple enough. it is not exactly like you are building a high rise???

There is some land clearing, but i wonder why it is so cost prohibitive???.....I agree that must be the reason, or else they would have expanded the system like they have expanded everything else

Supposely, back in the 70's ( i believe) it cost them $1 million per mile to built the monorail. Gotta be big time expensive now.

 

[jlovesee]

Originally EPCOT was supposed to be the hub for the extended monorail (next time take a look at the station, much too large for just one stop), and I don't think it would be that hard or expensive to expand. The cost the Vegas monorail is GREATLY inflated, and drives monorail enthusiasts like myself up the wall.

First off, when they voted to approve the monorail line included in the cost to build was the cost the destruct, if the monorail proved a failure. Also keep in mind all monorail stations are air conditioned, enclosed structures. These are two very important aspects that no one considers when they look at the ski-high price tag for the vegas monorail. Seattle runs a monorail as well, an has proved time and time again that it is one of the most cost effective, environmentally sound mass transit options.

The problem is you tell a lie enough times and people start believing it as the truth, I think this is atleast partially the case with Disney and many other cities that won't even consider Monorail.

For more info on monorails in general there is a great website:
www.monorailsociety.org

Stepping off my soap box now

Jennifer

 

[TheRustyScupper]

1) I see no advantage to build monorail extensions.
2) Regardless of the true/actual cost per mile.
3) Buses can do more than fixed monorail paths/destinations
4) In fact, they would be counter-productive.
. . . buses are cheaper per rider (after amortized costs) for the riders involved
. . . buses have significantly less fixed costs
. . . buses require less infrastructure
. . . buses are flexible for day-in-day-out changes in rider capacity needs
. . . buses are more flexible for routes and destinations


EDIT: Even for high-volume ridership, such as between parks, monorails have no advantage to WDW. Some say it would be good for park-hopping, but park-hopping is not an advantage to WDW. When people park hop, it requires additional manpower and other operating costs that could be reduced/controlled if it were not for hopping.

 

[tjkraz]

The cost the Vegas monorail is GREATLY inflated, and drives monorail enthusiasts like myself up the wall.

First off, when they voted to approve the monorail line included in the cost to build was the cost the destruct, if the monorail proved a failure. Also keep in mind all monorail stations are air conditioned, enclosed structures. These are two very important aspects that no one considers when they look at the ski-high price tag for the vegas monorail. Seattle runs a monorail as well, an has proved time and time again that it is one of the most cost effective, environmentally sound mass transit options.

The problem is you tell a lie enough times and people start believing it as the truth, I think this is atleast partially the case with Disney and many other cities that won't even consider Monorail.

Fair enough. But even 50% of $800 million is a pretty big chunk of change. Not to mention maintenance expenses--the roads have to be maintained regardless of the volume of bus traffic. So any maintenance needs for an expanded monorail system would be added expense.

As a monorail enthusiast, do you think Disney could eliminate bus service and convert all of the parks and resorts to monorails?

 

[jlovesee]

Do I think they should replace everything with monorail? absolutly not. Buses ARE more flexible, they are not as part specific (you can go to auto zone for a relacement part), they are easier to fix, and they are much more versatile. I completely 100% agree on all of those points. I would never say get rid of buses entirely.

However, monorails are on a set track, there will never be any significant "traffic" on a monorail, no red lights, no pedestrians, and they run on a set schedule. (coming from someone who WAS stuck on a monorail in a Florida summer storm for about an hour) Case in point there is always two monorails on the EPCOT line (used to be three). Japan runs monorails in a very significant number, and one of their monorails actually is profitable!

I never see things black and white, there is always room for a good discussion. Sorry if I drive people nuts with some of mine! Thanks for listening.

Jennifer

 

[spiceycat]

each and every bus needs a driver.
.
the monrail only has to have 2.

now the service for the monrail is done at the MK - so don't know about Epcot.

it and the trains share the same area. if you go on the train tour - you can see the monrail above you.

 

[StevesBLT]

I understand the "cost per mile" of new monorail track is unbelievably expensive, but I've always wondered why they didn't add a "third line" to the monorail system and have stops at:

1) Front gate at EPCOT;

2) Back gate at EPCOT;

3) Boardwalk or Yacht and Beach Club; and

4) Disney's Hollywood Studios.

The upfront cost would be high, but there wouldn't be that much track to build, at least in terms of distance. At a minimum, they would save on the expenses of running the boats between EPCOT, the EPCOT resorts and DHS. And how cool would it be to stay at any of the monorail resorts ("old" or "new" monorail resorts) and have monorail access to three parks! Just a thought!

 

[Chuck S]

I understand the "cost per mile" of new monorail track is unbelievably expensive, but I've always wondered why they didn't add a "third line" to the monorail system and have stops at:

1) Front gate at EPCOT;

2) Back gate at EPCOT;

3) Boardwalk or Yacht and Beach Club; and

4) Disney's Hollywood Studios.

The upfront cost would be high, but there wouldn't be that much track to build, at least in terms of distance. At a minimum, they would save on the expenses of running the boats between EPCOT, the EPCOT resorts and DHS. And how cool would it be to stay at any of the monorail resorts ("old" or "new" monorail resorts) and have monorail access to three parks! Just a thought!

I'm pretty sure, even long term, that the expense of upkeep, fuel and staff for the boats is nowhere near the initial cost of building elevated track, trains, station platforms and additional electrical infrastructure. Plus adding more trains to the fleet, they would surely need an additional maintenance facility near EPCOT or DHS.

I'm a big monorail fan, but a loop just to the EPCOT area resorts just doesn't seem cost effective at all compared to what is already in place, unless Swan/Dolphin were to contribute a large chunk of change. And imagine what DVC dues transportation fees would be, even with a portion of the constuction amoritized over the life of the ownership leasehold.