Splash Mountain to become Princess and the Frog ride

[DGsAtBLT]

what was the 2nd version. Are we on the 3rd version.

Yes. It’s on YouTube, it was Journey into YOUR imagination, lasted for maybe 2 years. Somewhat similar to the current version but lacking in Figment.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Going on expecting something close to the original ride that you adored, being surprised with that 2nd version, then exiting to the worst replacement for the Imageworks playground they could “imagine” was something.

It was so long ago that 2nd version feels like a weird fever dream. They’ve been priming me since that fateful day to question every refurb they ever do.

yeah, the current version has been around longer than either of the prior 2 ... I fell in love with WDW and with EPCOT when I traveled as a kid in the early 80s and Dreamfinder and Figment were a big reason why - so I understand where you are coming from

 

[WorldOfPooh]

Somehow I don't think you really care about whether children learn about African folklore and this is just concern trolling, but for the sake of argument It's not like Br'er Rabbit is the only West African folktale character out there and its not like most American schools are going to offer curriculums featuring a complete review of regional African folklore. Even so, the specific "Br'er Rabbit brand" offered by Disney is not all Br'er Rabbits, it's the specific Br'er Rabbit that comes from a racist compilation of stories that was turned into a racist movie. In fact accepting as such could offer a good lesson for kids in how oral folklore traditions change based on the circumstances of their storytellers through comparison and how African-American culture was further co-opted by white Americans to further their own racist narratives about black people.

I'm not trying to read your mind so don't assume what you don't know.

Disney is a very powerful brand. If they decided that the Disney Cinderella brand was racist then good luck with anyone else having any success promoting an off Disney Cinderella brand.

 

[JacknSally]

what was the 2nd version. Are we on the 3rd version.

Of Imagination? Yes, the current version is iteration number 3. The second version did not last long at all, that's how awful it was.

 

[Krandor]

Yes. It’s on YouTube, it was Journey into YOUR imagination, lasted for maybe 2 years. Somewhat similar to the current version but lacking in Figment.

WHoever thought they could do an imagination ride without figment... I will never ever understand.

 

[chasgoose]

I'm glad you responded to this.

The point that essentially brings up is do we get rid of the offensive aspects of Splash Mountain (SoS, Uncle Remus) while keeping the cute animals and West African cultural heritage of Bre'r Rabbit or do we just get rid of all of it. And you can see how this applies to Apu and Simpsons. Is it enough just to get rid of the offensive/racist material or revoice him with an Indian American actor or do we have to cancel and remove the whole show?

IMO, and I mentioned this more succinctly in a post a while back is you keep Splash Mountain, but you have a West African pavilion at Splash Moutain where West African cast members can explain the history and stories of Bre'r Rabbit as well as a pavilion on slavery and how the Bre'r Rabbit stories were corrupted by the white guy's Uncle Remus novels and SoS versions of it as well as how Bre'r Rabbit was used as a form of rebellion by the slaves against the white slave masters who tried to eradicate all culture/education/and linkage West Africa.

Aside from the fact that a theme park ride is a less than ideal venue to address complicated and thorny issues like cultural appropriation and weaponization, slavery, white supremacy, shifting oral traditions based on cultural context, etc., your solution also wouldn't work in other ways. Why would it be the job of West African cultural ambassadors who aren't from the US and do not descend from slaves explain the very American problems with Splash Mountain (not to mention it shouldn't be the job of any BIPOC to explain racism to white people). Even more of a problem, it's not like adding in and explaining the racist context and white supremacy would appease a lot of the people complaining about this change. No theme park ride, even Splash Mountain, is a good platform for engaging with these topics and clearly Disney does not see it as Splash Mountain's role to do so. Disney is in the entertainment business not the educational business, and even if they were in the educational business, it would be absurd to choose a log flume ride as a platform to address these topics.

 

[TommyJK]

IMO, and I mentioned this more succinctly in a post a while back is you keep Splash Mountain, but you have a West African pavilion at Splash Moutain where West African cast members can explain the history and stories of Bre'r Rabbit as well as a pavilion on slavery and how the Bre'r Rabbit stories were corrupted by the white guy's Uncle Remus novels and SoS versions of it as well as how Bre'r Rabbit was used as a form of rebellion by the slaves against the white slave masters who tried to eradicate all culture/education/and linkage West Africa.

OR, you could re-theme the ride to something different that doesn't offend and constantly remind the BIPOC community the origins of THIS VERSION of Bre'r Rabbit, and let the BIPOC community decide themselves how to tell and share these stories.

Seems a lot simpler and equitable than a convoluted Disney whitesplaining as you describe so some can simply hold on to some ride nostalgia.

 

[WorldOfPooh]

Aside from the fact that a theme park ride is a less than ideal venue to address complicated and thorny issues like cultural appropriation and weaponization, slavery, white supremacy, shifting oral traditions based on cultural context, etc., your solution also wouldn't work in other ways. Why would it be the job of West African cultural ambassadors who aren't from the US and do not descend from slaves explain the very American problems with Splash Mountain. Even more of a problem, it's not like adding in and explaining the racist context and white supremacy would appease a lot of the people complaining about this change. No theme park ride, even Splash Mountain, is a good platform for engaging with these topics and clearly Disney does not see it as Splash Mountain's role to do so. Disney is in the entertainment business not the educational business, and even if they were in the educational business, it would be absurd to choose a log flume ride as a platform to address these topics.

The American cast members would explain the American part in the American pavilion at Splash. That seems obvious, not sure why you would think otherwise.

 

[WorldOfPooh]

OR, you could re-theme the ride to something different that doesn't offend and constantly remind the BIPOC community the origins of THIS VERSION of Bre'r Rabbit, and let the BIPOC community decide themselves how to tell and share these stories.

Seems a lot simpler and equitable than a convoluted Disney whitesplaining as you describe so some can simply hold on to some ride nostalgia.

That's one option but not the only option.

Not sure why you want to erase history or pretend things didn't happen.

 

[chasgoose]

The American cast members would explain the American part in the American pavilion at Splash. That seems obvious, not sure why you would think otherwise.

So we are going to turn Splash Mountain into a mini-Epcot now? Hardly the obvious solution. Also, how would a West African pavilion fit in with Frontierland????

 

[Krandor]

Aside from the fact that a theme park ride is a less than ideal venue to address complicated and thorny issues like cultural appropriation and weaponization, slavery, white supremacy, shifting oral traditions based on cultural context, etc., your solution also wouldn't work in other ways. Why would it be the job of West African cultural ambassadors who aren't from the US and do not descend from slaves explain the very American problems with Splash Mountain. Even more of a problem, it's not like adding in and explaining the racist context and white supremacy would appease a lot of the people complaining about this change. No theme park ride, even Splash Mountain, is a good platform for engaging with these topics and clearly Disney does not see it as Splash Mountain's role to do so. Disney is in the entertainment business not the educational business, and even if they were in the educational business, it would be absurd to choose a log flume ride as a platform to address these topics.

If disney wants to do education about SotS/Splash and so forth the right venue would be a documentary on disney+. In fact in the current climate I could see something like that being a very positive thing for them to do.

 

[mousemoose]

If disney wants to do education about SotS/Splash and so forth the right venue would be a documentary on disney+. In fact in the current climate I could see something like that being a very positive thing for them to do.

That Disney+ Imagineering show already had an episode which featured the making of Splash.

 

[WorldOfPooh]

So we are going to turn Splash Mountain into a mini-Epcot now? Hardly the obvious solution. Also, how would a West African pavilion fit in with Frontierland????

I'd say more an area or station cause Pavilion does sound like a whole Epcot like land.
I would say an area with displays like you have on the lower history level of the National Museum of African American History and Culture in DC and then maybe a stage where the cast members could read Br'er Rabbit fables or act out little skits to the children.

 

[WorldOfPooh]

If disney wants to do education about SotS/Splash and so forth the right venue would be a documentary on disney+. In fact in the current climate I could see something like that being a very positive thing for them to do.

I don't see the dichotomy between entertainment and history/education at Disney World. The Mark Twain/Steamboat area is highly historic (minus the guns in the fort that seem to be there to shoot Native Americans and Injue Joe's cave). The main street area is a historic area. The Hall of Presidents is a historic and educational area. Epoct is very educational.

 

[Krandor]

I'd say more an area or station cause Pavilion does sound like a whole Epcot like land.
I would say an area with displays like you have on the lower history level of the National Museum of African American History and Culture in DC and then maybe a stage where the cast members could read Br'er Rabbit fables or act out little skits to the children.

or.. jsut change the ride to something that POC don't find offensive and don't want to ride. You are going to a lot of effort just to keep the ride intact. If it is that much work to keep it it shouldn't be kept in its current form.

 

[chasgoose]

That's one option but not the only option.

Not sure why you want to erase history or pretend things didn't happen.

OK this is my last response since we all know what "erase history" means and the concern troll facade has fully been dropped. Your option is wildly more complicated and difficult than simply re-theming the ride to IP that Disney will actually allow its American customers to watch. First, you can't seriously believe that people would be willing to engage with multiple cultural and historical presentations just to ride a ride or that if it were optional anyone would actually take advantage of them. More importantly, it's the Br'er Rabbit stories and Song of the South that "erase history" by stripping the people who told the stories and the history itself of their agency/context.

I've already given you a great source in the form of the You Must Remember This podcast where you can learn a ton about the history of Song of the South, Joel Chandler Harris, Hattie McDaniel, the minstrelsy origins of Zip A Dee Do Dah, Br'er Rabbit, and Disney's engagement and tacit acceptance of that history in the making of the movie and Splash Mountain. That's not the only source, just one of the more thorough and well-researched and easy to access. The less than six hours it takes to listen to that podcast does a much better job explaining the "history" you profess to care so much about than Splash Mountain, even with your suggestions could ever do, and its only one of many already extant sources that would do so.

 

[mousemoose]

............or keep the ride as is and see if it still forms giant lines.

“We are not trying to entertain the critics. I’ll take my chances with the public.” – Walt Disney

 

[JacknSally]

The American cast members would explain the American part in the American pavilion at Splash. That seems obvious, not sure why you would think otherwise.

So, if I'm understanding your suggestions correctly, your idea comes off like "leave the ride exactly like it is but then over here out of the way put this educational section where people can go to learn about why it's problematic if they want to." In which case, people at a theme park who didn't care to go through a history lesson could just skip the educational/explanatory part entirely and just go on with the ride like it's not problematic. How does that fix anything?

Also, if they wanted to use Song of the South/Splash as an educational resource, it would make MUCH more sense for them to put something together for Disney+. But they've decided not to release SotS with any disclaimers or addendums.

BIPOC have already been doing the work and putting out the resources for us. They've already explained this history. They're already sharing these stories. By suggesting Disney leave the ride as-is and put in a pavilion where they can educate park-goers who care to be educated, you're asking Black people to do the work again, and to do it in a very specific way that makes you comfortable.

 

[WorldOfPooh]

So, if I'm understanding your suggestions correctly, your idea comes off like "leave the ride exactly like it is but then over here out of the way put this educational section where people can go to learn about why it's problematic if they want to." In which case, people at a theme park who didn't care to go through a history lesson could just skip the educational/explanatory part entirely and just go on with the ride like it's not problematic. How does that fix anything?

Also, if they wanted to use Song of the South/Splash as an educational resource, it would make MUCH more sense for them to put something together for Disney+. But they've decided not to release SotS with any disclaimers or addendums.

BIPOC have already been doing the work and putting out the resources for us. They've already explained this history. They're already sharing these stories. By suggesting Disney leave the ride as-is and put in a pavilion where they can educate park-goers who care to be educated, you're asking Black people to do the work again, and to do it in a very specific way that makes you comfortable.

Not exactly. I don't have a problem with tweaking parts of the ride.
They don't have to leave the ride exactly as it is as long as they don't add Johnny Depp animatronics (that's a deal breaker).

I also think you are underestimating people and kids in not wanting to learn the history and origins behind Bre'r Rabbit, etc.

 

[JacknSally]

Not exactly. I don't have a problem with tweaking parts of the ride.
They don't have to leave the ride exactly as it is as long as they don't add Johnny Depp animatronics (that's a deal breaker).

I also think you are underestimating people and kids in not wanting to learn the history and origins behind Bre'r Rabbit, etc.

Eh, it's more that I just know how many people on vacation skip the stuff after the attractions in the rush to get to the next thing. We never watched the Norway movie after Maelstrom. The number of people that value Disney's edutainment dwindles every year.

If people genuinely want to learn this history, it's already out there, ready to be learned. @chasgoose recommended the You Must Remember This podcast many times. That's just one of many available resources. This history can be learned without a log flume in a theme park.