Speaking other languages in public in the U.S.

[Mickey'snewestfan]

But that just goes to prove how very important it is to assimilate at least to some degree lest one become an outcast.

Or maybe it goes to prove how very important it is not to make outcasts out of people who are going through the same process all of our ancestors went through.

As a teacher we are told that it takes 7 years for a child learning English at school to "catch up". At my school, our kids start at 3, and so we expect that they'll be proficient in English at 10. Now these kids have several huge advantages over adults. They're in an environment 7 - 9 hours a day, 180+ days a year that is designed to teach the English language, supported by fluent adults. Most new adult immigrants don't have that, instead they're spending those hours working, often at jobs with co workers who also aren't fluent. They're young and their brains are more plastic, and finally to get credit for having "caught up" they only need to make it to a 10 year old level, not an adult level.

If it takes a young child that long, why are we as a society so judgemental of adults who need time to do the same thing, or even those who find the task overwhelming or nearly impossible?

 

[LJSquishy]

It doesn't bother me at all. What bothers me is when signs & things are printed in languages other than English...usually things are printed in English & Spanish. It really bothers me. I truly believe that anyone who wants to live in the US should learn English and that it's part of being an American. If we were to go to any other country (that does not speak English), we would be expected to learn their language.

Unfortunately, the US doesn't have an official language.

 

[A_Princess'_Daddy]

But that just goes to prove how very important it is to assimilate at least to some degree lest one become an outcast.

I'm not following your point?

My point is that today's immigrants ARE assimilating, at least for the most part, but it will take generations for them to be fully ingrained in American culture. Expecting somebody who arrived in this country a few years ago, or even 20 years ago, to be fully assimilated is not realistic, nor is it what happened in the past with other immigrant populations who took 50+ years to gain a foothold in this country (and most still hold dear to their cultural heritage to this day, as indicated by the popularity of St. Patrick's Day). And institutionalized oppression of those who do not assimilate fast enough is not an effective method of driving more rapid assimilation, it is, instead, a means of further separating the new culture from the dominant one.

 

[Planogirl]

When I lived in Boston, it was common amongst the Russian emigre population, and in Des Moines now it is common amongst the large Serbian and Bosnian populations, so I disagree with your assessment. I think the Hispanic population is larger and therefore frequently more noticeable, but learning a language as an adult is incredibly hard and I don't think it's automatically done by other cultures any more easily than with the Hispanic population.

I don't recall ever hearing that there is a Russian population in Texas. However we do have a great many citizens from Greece, Norway, India, Pakistan, various eastern Asian nations and so on. As I pointed out, I have many relatives from Holland that have learned English too.

I do understand that it takes a great deal of work to learn English but it is done on a routine basis by many. I'm not saying that other cultures learn more easily but perhaps they feel more of a need to do so since bilingual generally means English and Spanish at least in Texas.

I want to add that in fairness, I never had a problem with learning Dutch in the Netherlands since just about everyone knows at least some English. I even attended school not knowing a word of Dutch because the teacher could so easily translate for me and the kids could talk to me too. I realize that it's a lot easier at that age though.

 

[BuddyThomas]

Wow, this is a very interesting discussion. Therefore, I'm really surprised that the trigger happy censors on here haven't shut the thread down yet.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Or maybe it goes to prove how very important it is not to make outcasts out of people who are going through the same process all of our ancestors went through.

But that's asking an awful lot of society as it exists today. Nobody controls your future more than you.

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

But that's asking an awful lot of society as it exists today. Nobody controls your future more than you.

I can't imagine defending making outcasts of people, especially after the example of the internment of the Japanese, and using the thumbs up sign.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I'm not following your point?

My point is that today's immigrants ARE assimilating, at least for the most part, but it will take generations for them to be fully ingrained in American culture. Expecting somebody who arrived in this country a few years ago, or even 20 years ago, to be fully assimilated is not realistic, nor is it what happened in the past with other immigrant populations who took 50+ years to gain a foothold in this country (and most still hold dear to their cultural heritage to this day, as indicated by the popularity of St. Patrick's Day). And institutionalized oppression of those who do not assimilate fast enough is not an effective method of driving more rapid assimilation, it is, instead, a means of further separating the new culture from the dominant one.

My point wasn't to contest your statement, though I do admit I did not read it as you're explaining it now. My point was simply that for those immigrants who are resisting assimilation (and there are many), they are in effect holding themselves back.

 

[Planogirl]

I can't imagine defending making outcasts of people, especially after the example of the internment of the Japanese, and using the thumbs up sign.

There is a place with the remains of one of the camps close to us and after seeing it I started reading about what happened. It seemed that the internment was done out of fear. Fear of what? Even if there were spies among the people what happened to innocent until proven guilty? What exactly would children do?

The whole thing was beyond bizarre and so unbelievably cruel.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I can't imagine defending making outcasts of people, especially after the example of the internment of the Japanese, and using the thumbs up sign.

I'm not defending it. I'm simply recognizing its existence.

 

[Lorelei Lee]

In Israel the government mandates that all students learn a second language, specifically English. Interesting how foreign governments see bilingualism as a positive.

And English because it is one of the languages used in diplomacy and internstional business.

 

[A_Princess'_Daddy]

In Israel the government mandates that all students learn a second language, specifically English. Interesting how foreign governments see bilingualism as a positive.

And English because it is one of the languages used in diplomacy and internstional business.

I agree.

I also find it interesting, when traveling in foreign nations that actually DO have a legal language, hearing announcement and seeing things printed in multiple other languages, including English, is the norm and completely expected. Those nations see it as welcoming and, frankly, as a good way to appeal to the English-speaking population. Meanwhile, here in the USA where we have no official language, people object to other languages being offered in the same contexts.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I agree.

I also find it interesting, when traveling in foreign nations that actually DO have a legal language, hearing announcement and seeing things printed in multiple other languages, including English, is the norm and completely expected. Those nations see it as welcoming and, frankly, as a good way to appeal to the English-speaking population. Meanwhile, here in the USA where we have no official language, people object to other languages being offered in the same contexts.

Perhaps its some sense of insecurity given our lack of an "official" language. Also, in Europe you have countries the size of U.S. states that all have their own language. With countries that small, one has to assume multiple languages are going to be necessary to even conduct business. Meanwhile, in the U.S., we have one of the larger countries on Earth where the predominant language is English. And given the fact English is the most widely accepted language Worldwide (even if not the "most" spoken), it is a bit more understandable that folks would be frustrated with other languages being so prevalent in our society.


I do believe an official language has its place and for our country, English should be it. But, no I don't believe we should shut everyone out who can't speak it, nor expect everyone to learn it overnight. Rather, immigrants simply need to understand this is the path the nation has been on for some time, and will be on for some time. Most probably do understand that, hopefully.

 

[CPT Tripss]

Nope, there is no official language for the United States. The most common language is English, of course. But we don't have an official language.

A business that wants to cater to those who don't speak English is a smart company.

And considering what I heard on NBC News last week, i. e. , that the largest ethnic group in this country, the group with the largest population growth, is hispanics, I'm thinking we will eventually become officially bilingual. Just as Canadians who don't speak both French and English nay find themselves at a disadvantage, Americans who don't speak both English and Spanish will be at a disadvantage.

Less than a fifth of Canadians are functionally bilingual in the official languages. The percentage is decreasing.

 

[A_Princess'_Daddy]

Perhaps its some sense of insecurity given our lack of an "official" language. Also, in Europe you have countries the size of U.S. states that all have their own language. With countries that small, one has to assume multiple languages are going to be necessary to even conduct business. Meanwhile, in the U.S., we have one of the larger countries on Earth where the predominant language is English. And given the fact English is the most widely accepted language Worldwide (even if not the "most" spoken), it is a bit more understandable that folks would be frustrated with other languages being so prevalent in our society.


I do believe an official language has its place and for our country, English should be it. But, no I don't believe we should shut everyone out who can't speak it, nor expect everyone to learn it overnight. Rather, immigrants simply need to understand this is the path the nation has been on for some time, and will be on for some time. Most probably do understand that, hopefully.

I understand what you're saying, but they announce and print things in English in Russia, China & Japan, so it's not just the close-knit European nations that do it. I haven't spent much time in South America and have never traveled to Brazil (nearly the size of the contiguous USA) but my understanding is they also freely announce and publish in English and Spanish there, as well.

Interestingly, Mexico also has no official or legal language, and their constitution was recently amended to require a "legal respect" for the other indigenous languages in the nation. They also announce and print things in English in Mexico, despite not having an official language. I wonder why they aren't insecure about that?

Worrying about having to "Press 1 for English" is, I believe, the epitome of a First World Problem...

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Interestingly, Mexico also has no official or legal language, and their constitution was recently amended to require a "legal respect" for the other indigenous languages in the nation. They also announce and print things in English in Mexico, despite not having an official language. I wonder why they aren't insecure about that?

Maybe they are and we just don't know it? And maybe the reasons people fight it in the U.S. isn't insecurity, but some other issue. Who knows?

Mexico is an interesting scenario though. They've for the most part adopted a European language while it does not appear that the overwhelming majority of their citizens are of European heritage.

 

[A_Princess'_Daddy]

Maybe they are and we just don't know it? And maybe the reasons people fight it in the U.S. isn't insecurity, but some other issue. Who knows?

Mexico is an interesting scenario though. They've for the most part adopted a European language while it does not appear that the overwhelming majority of their citizens are of European heritage.

OK, I'm heading off to do a little work before bed, but have enjoyed the conversation. Before I go, however, I want to point out that the majority of Mexicans do derive of European heritage (58.96%) but Mexico, just like the USA, is a melting pot and has large populations from Asia, Europe & Africa as well as from indigenous cultures. Lastly, if Spanish is a European language in Mexico, then why don't we consider it a European language in the USA? Interesting to contemplate...

Have a great night! This has been a remarkably civil and interesting conversation, in my opinion.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

OK, I'm heading off to do a little work before bed, but have enjoyed the conversation. Before I go, however, I want to point out that the majority of Mexicans do derive of European heritage (58.96%) but Mexico, just like the USA, is a melting pot and has large populations from Asia, Europe & Africa as well as from indigenous cultures. Lastly, if Spanish is a European language in Mexico, then why don't we consider it a European language in the USA? Interesting to contemplate...

Have a great night! This has been a remarkably civil and interesting conversation, in my opinion.

I think most folks do consider it a European language when we think about it. It's just that the majority of the time we hear Spanish spoken, it's coming from someone born in this Hemisphere

Interesting point about Mexican heritage. Most of my time in Mexico has been spent on the Texas border & the overwhelming majority of Mexicans I encountered were clearly of Native American blood, or at least partially so. Must be different in other parts of the country. I had the strangest reaction to showing up with a beard down there. Very few of the men there can grow one. I didn't realize this, so I stuck out like an even bigger sore thumb than usual

'til next time!

 

[PrincessKsMom]

I would just like to add that no where did I say we should make them outcasts. I simply said it irks me.

 

[lizabu]

I agree.

I also find it interesting, when traveling in foreign nations that actually DO have a legal language, hearing announcement and seeing things printed in multiple other languages, including English, is the norm and completely expected. Those nations see it as welcoming and, frankly, as a good way to appeal to the English-speaking population. Meanwhile, here in the USA where we have no official language, people object to other languages being offered in the same contexts.

Speaking from someone who has nieces and nephews who live is various EU countries, they all speak at least three languages. It's the norm. They actually think its odd to only speak one language.

Less than a fifth of Canadians are functionally bilingual in the official languages. The percentage is decreasing.

Right, but you have to admit not being bilingual is a disadvantage. There are jobs you just can't have if you aren't bilingual. Bilingual people get paid a premium for doing the same job as non bilingual people at many companies too.