Southern pride gone wrong!

[A_Princess'_Daddy]

here is the original confederate consitiution:
http://www.usconstitution.net/csa.html

I cannot find a free link to the information, but this is a great book that discusses, amoung other things, Lee's plan to phase out slavery by halting the import of new slaves, and stopping its expansion:
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/101599.Guns_of_the_South

The plan never got a chance to be emplemented becuase they were busy fighting a war that they eventually lost, but not everyone in the South shared the opinions of a vocal few, and most knew why they were really fighting. You have to remember also that slave owners were a small minority in the south.

You're kidding, right? That book is a work of historical fiction in which a time traveler goes back to the Civil War with an AK-47 to help the South win...You do realize it didn't really happen, right?

Even if the book draws from an actual plan (I don't have enough time to read SciFi fantasy about the Civil War), it would have been a plan that was inherently at odds and illegal according to the Constitution of the seceeded states, so I hardly think you can assert your "The South had a plan to end slavery, too" statement with any confidence or authority.

 

[A_Princess'_Daddy]

The same way prohibiton was enacted and abolished, through constitutional amendment. In this case proposed by Robert E. Lee, but never encated becuase the war ended. It isn't "super secret". Every kid that goes through 5th grade history learns about it, at least at our schools.

here is a link to another book on the subject:
http://www.amazon.com/Confederate-Emancipation-Southern-Slaves-during/dp/0195147626#_

OK, and in that book, the case was "free the slaves so they can fight for the Confederacy instead of fighting for the Union" not "free the slaves, because, well, maybe people shouldn't own other people."

Also, it's important to note that the theory came about quite late in the war, specifically because the South was losing and saw that the end was near, and using freed slaves to fight was a last gasp.

As to amending the CSA constitution, I suspect that wasn't "on the table" when it was written quite so blithely as you seem to indicate. The plan was put forth by military leaders to save the war, not by the statesmen who could actually legislate or the voters who could actually act upon such a plan.

Feel free to revise history in your mind however you want, to ease your conscience, but just keep in mind that the facts are not on your side...

 

[A_Princess'_Daddy]

And, in searching the document, it is the only reference to slavery.

Well, you cannot reference the super secret plan in the public plan, or it's not the super secret plan...

 

[luvsJack]

Ya'll can argue what the war was about all day long, and in the end it doesn't matter. The ending result was the same. Slavery ended.

But another fact remains also and that is that flying the Confederate flag has nothing to do with racism for most people. Yes, the KKK carries one. They also carry a Bible. Should we not allow that to be displayed either?

It is a symbol of the old South, like it or not. And many, many Southerners are proud of coming from the old South. And many, many Southerners get really tired of being told what symbols they can and can't have and what flag they can and can't fly.

 

[Geoff_M]

The same way prohibiton was enacted and abolished, through constitutional amendment. In this case proposed by Robert E. Lee, but never encated becuase the war ended. It isn't "super secret". Every kid that goes through 5th grade history learns about it, at least at our schools.

here is a link to another book on the subject:
http://www.amazon.com/Confederate-Emancipation-Southern-Slaves-during/dp/0195147626#_

Look, this is a lot like the argument that some people make that the US didn't have to use atomic weapons against Japan because they were about to surrender on their own. In both cases there is no doubt limited evidence to support each notion, but when you look at the bigger picture it just doesn't pass the smell test.

 

[Golf4food]

Let's stop pretending the Confederate Flag is about southern pride and admit what it truly is about: Jefferson Davis' (failed) utopia.

Wow. One of the more ignorant posts I've seen on the DIS (and there is a plethora).

 

[NY Disney fan]

Wow. One of the more ignorant posts I've seen on the DIS (and there is a plethora).

I disagree. Wish people who trying to stop romantacizing the "stars n'barz".

 

[princessmom29]

You're kidding, right? That book is a work of historical fiction in which a time traveler goes back to the Civil War with an AK-47 to help the South win...You do realize it didn't really happen, right?

Even if the book draws from an actual plan (I don't have enough time to read SciFi fantasy about the Civil War), it would have been a plan that was inherently at odds and illegal according to the Constitution of the seceeded states, so I hardly think you can assert your "The South had a plan to end slavery, too" statement with any confidence or authority.

yep, got that , NOT STUPID! It is just the closest thing at hand quickly that referenced it. See below for a factual work on the subject.

OK, and in that book, the case was "free the slaves so they can fight for the Confederacy instead of fighting for the Union" not "free the slaves, because, well, maybe people shouldn't own other people."

Also, it's important to note that the theory came about quite late in the war, specifically because the South was losing and saw that the end was near, and using freed slaves to fight was a last gasp.

As to amending the CSA constitution, I suspect that wasn't "on the table" when it was written quite so blithely as you seem to indicate. The plan was put forth by military leaders to save the war, not by the statesmen who could actually legislate or the voters who could actually act upon such a plan.

Feel free to revise history in your mind however you want, to ease your conscience, but just keep in mind that the facts are not on your side...

Beleive whatever you want, but it doesn't change the fact that there was in fact a plan in place in the Confederacy for emancipation. Just beciase it doesn't meet with your lofty moral standards doesn't mean it didn't exist, which is what you started out arguing.

 

[LIDisneyFan]

But another fact remains also and that is that flying the Confederate flag has nothing to do with racism for most people. Yes, the KKK carries one. They also carry a Bible. Should we not allow that to be displayed either?

It is a symbol of the old South, like it or not. And many, many Southerners are proud of coming from the old South. And many, many Southerners get really tired of being told what symbols they can and can't have and what flag they can and can't fly.

Perception is reality. Like it or not. Maybe people are proud of coming from the "old south"- but the "old South" referenced by that flag included owning people. Somehow I find that offensive.

Substitute "Nazi Germany" for "old south" and re-read your last paragraph. Not one person on this entire thread has said they don't have the 'right' to fly the flag-in fact, many have defended that right. However -the post was about 'Southern Pride gone wrong".

JMO

 

[LIDisneyFan]

Beleive whatever you want, but it doesn't change the fact that there was in fact a plan in place in the Confederacy for emancipation. Just beciase it doesn't meet with your lofty moral standards doesn't mean it didn't exist, which is what you started out arguing.

So-can you send us a link to Robert E Lee's plan for emancipation?

 

[NY Disney fan]

So-can you send us a link to Robert E Lee's plan for emancipation?

A myth. There was no such thing as emancipation for the South.

 

[princessmom29]

I disagree. Wish people who trying to stop romantacizing the "stars n'barz".

And I wish people would stop vilifying it.

 

[moburg]

To set a few facts straight:

99% of the people who fought for the south in the civil war never owned a slave nor did they fight for slavery. They fought because a foreign army invaded their home states. States were much more important than the "nation" back then, in fact, most people didn't consider themselves "American" in our modern sense of the word - they were Virginians or New Yorkers or <insert state here>. "America" didn't really become "The United States of" until after the Civil War. If a foreign power decided to invade your area today you might defend it as well. Even if you lose the subsequent war your future ancestors may still be proud of your actions.

The Civil War was fought over money. Just like most politics in modern life it all comes down to the almighty dollar. The Federal government was doing things that made the north wealthy and the south less-so and yes, that included slavery, but the real issue was money. The Southern states decided that if the US Gov was doing things that harmed them they should seceed. The states had voluntarily joined the union, ergo they should be allowed to voluntarily leave the union. If I sign up for a gym membership today I shouldn't be held to it for life if the gym does things I don't like. Maybe I'll get a Bowflex in my house instead.

Just because a very small percentage of people use a Confederate battle flag as a symbol of racism does not make all southerners racist, not does it make anyone who is proud of the actions of their southern ancestors to be racists or bad people.

News flash: there are and were racists in the north as well. Where did the Underground Railroad mostly stop? Canada. Why? Because excaped slaves often had such a bad time of things once in the northern states it was safer to go to Canada.

When Lincoln passed the Emmancipation Proclimation (a useless document at the time, by the way) there were riots in the north and near mutinies in the northern armies by those who wanted nothing to do with a war about or for slavery.

There is racism everywhere. Racist whites, racist blacks, racist Asians, etc. To think otherwise is pure ignorance and to focus so intently on just white southerners is no better than the racism itself.

It is possible to be both proud of one's southern heritage and the action of one's Confederate ancestors and not be racist.

And one reason so many still keep the South "alive" today is that many of the same issues still exist politically - is the Federal government too powerful, infringing upon our rights, doing things they shouldn't be doing? I think many today, regardless of political party, would say yes. Just as the Tea Party invokes the spirit of the American Revolution there are others who look to Southern secession as the same spirit (indeed it was considered by many to be the Second American Revolution, not a Civil War, at the time).

 

[princessmom29]

a myth. There was no such thing as emancipation for the south.

bs.

 

[Geoff_M]

Beleive whatever you want, but it doesn't change the fact that there was in fact a plan in place in the Confederacy for emancipation. Just beciase it doesn't meet with your lofty moral standards doesn't mean it didn't exist, which is what you started out arguing.

Can you explain to me how you can compare a conditional emancipation, based in this case on the acceptance of military service, to an unconditional general emancipation? Why stop there? You could use the existence of free blacks that had purchased their freedom as the basis for a claim that the means to end slavery had already been legislated before the first shot was fired at Ft. Sumter!

 

[princessmom29]

So-can you send us a link to Robert E Lee's plan for emancipation?

i did. read the book I linked.

 

[badblackpug]

Unfortunately, the truth of the matter is that no matter what the confederate flag (or the swastika, for that matter) was originally meant to symbolize, or what it still may symbolize to some, it's prominent use by hate groups such as the KKK (and nazis) has overshadowed it's original meaning, and has associated it with these groups and their philosophies.

The issue now arises that because people associate this symbol with hate groups who espouse bigotry and hatred, it is not a far leap to assume that people who are prominently displaying this symbol are in a agreement with these philosophies. When people then go further to say that it is a symbol of "southern pride" and fly that flag people will, maybe erroneously, maybe not, assume that "southern pride" includes racism.

I think that everyone on here can agree that racism is not limited to the region south of the Mason-Dixon line. Not all southerners are racist, not all racists are southerners, but to the vast majority of people the southern flag, through prominent use by white supremacy groups, has become a symbol of racism and hatred.

While this woman has every right to fly this flag, she and almost everyone else in the country understands what it symbolizes to the vast majority.

 

[LIDisneyFan]

i did. read the book I linked.

So there is no place on the internet where this can be found except one book?

Try reading about "The Lost Cause" - the historical terminology for the quasi-revisionist history attempted after the civil war. The idealization of Robert E Lee is part of the key tenants.

Note the first paragraph (from the Encyclopedia):
The Lost Cause is an interpretation of the American Civil War (1861–1865) that seeks to present the war, from the perspective of Confederates, in the best possible terms. Developed by white Southerners, many of them former Confederate generals, in a postwar climate of economic, racial, and gender uncertainty, the Lost Cause created and romanticized the "Old South" and the Confederate war effort, often distorting history in the process. For this reason, many historians have labeled the Lost Cause a myth or a legend. It is certainly an important example of public memory, one in which nostalgia for the Confederate past is accompanied by a collective forgetting of the horrors of slavery. Providing a sense of relief to white Southerners who feared being dishonored by defeat, the Lost Cause was largely accepted in the years following the war by white Americans who found it to be a useful tool in reconciling North and South. The Lost Cause has lost much of its academic support but continues to be an important part of how the Civil War is commemorated in the South and remembered in American popular culture


http://encyclopediavirginia.org/Lost_Cause_The

 

[CPT Tripss]

My point is as valid as any other. People are complaining because that flag "stands for something" they don't like. Suck it up. Lot's of flags have things associated with that aren't all that great. The fact whether the "country" remains or not has little to do with the matter. The flag we use started as a "war flag".

I will say that, although I will defend the thought that it is her right to fly the flag, I find it sad that she feels she should do it when she knows it causes others pain. Very sad.

Your second post hit on the crux of the matter. Add to the perception of racism the reality of people flying the "war flag" of a war the heritage they are so proud of lost. Might that make them "losers" as well?

 

[CPT Tripss]

Well, we could - they have legally banned the swastika in Germany. Let's just hope that America never decides to go that far. Nothing does more to harm freedom than censorship - even when censorship is implemented with of all the right motivations.

I see it this way. Everyone knows that some people, especially African Americans, see the Confederate Flag as a racially charged symbol. Those who choose to fly the flag are doing so knowing that they will offend some people. Racist? Maybe. But certainly insensitive to the felings of a minority group.