Southern pride gone wrong!

[badblackpug]

Of course morality can be legislated; governments at all levels do it every day. In fact, most laws on the books specifically legislate morality. The government tells us that we cannot steal, we cannot murder, we cannot drive while under the influence of controlled substances, we cannot posses or use drugs, that corporations have to release their financial information to their shareholders and cannot lie or distort their financial statements and that we must pay taxes to support the government that protects those rights on our behalf, even if and when we don't agree with how the money is being used. It even legislates that we cannot use our constitutionally protected right to free speech to yell fire in a crowded theater because of the risk of harm to others.

What the laws of the USA cannot do is restrict speech, or "equivalent speech", when that speech does not pose a clear and immediate danger of physical harm to another. In other words, we cannot legislate against hurt feelings.

But that, in my opinion, does not make the neighbor any less racist, ignorant and foolish for flying a flag that represents oppression and hatred to the majority of people. It just gives her the right to be racist, ignorant and foolish.

Alright, I will reiterate, the government cannot make you be a nice person. While I agree that this woman was within her rights to fly whatever flag she chooses, her choice to do so was not right. I can't, for the life of me, imagine why she would move into a neighborhood and choose to fly a flag that would be so incendiary, a fact I am sure she knew. I agree with you. To me, that is a flag that symbolizes hatred. That may not have been it's original symbol, but that is what it has evolved into, for many, if not most people.

 

[Geoff_M]

There is blatant racism the world over. The south has no patent on it.

And if someone only wanted to look close enough they would find for every racist, there are many more non-racist people in the south. Its just a matter of what you want to find.

100% correct.... There's was an ugly incident last week in London, Ontario:

Fan throws banana peel at Flyers’ Wayne Simmonds

By Sean Leahy

The Philadelphia Flyers and Detroit Red Wings played in a neutral site exhibition game Thursday night in London, Ontario. While the 4-3 win for the Red Wings was the result, the story was an apparent racist incident during the shootout.

Flyers forward Wayne Simmonds was in the middle of his shootout attempt when a fan inside the Labatt Centre threw a banana peel in his path. Simmonds, of African-Canadian decent, wasn't shaken by it and beat Red Wings goaltender Jordan Pearce.

Simmonds, who grew up a little over two hours from London in Scarborough, took the high road talking about the incident after the game with the Philadelphia Daily News' Frank Seravalli:

"When you're a black man playing in a predominantly white man's sport, you've got to come to expect things like that," Simmonds said. "Over the past 23 years of my life, I've come to expect some things like that. But I'm older and more mature now, I kind of just left things roll off [my back]. I try not to think about stuff like that."

Sources told Seravalli that the perpetrator was not caught.

That kind of racism has been seen in hockey for far too long. Sadly, it's been prevalent in European soccer for some time causing FIFA to begin its "Let's Kick Racism Out of Football" campaign. Whether it's bananas or racist chants or taunts, it's sad that one idiot in the crowd decided that it was a good idea to put their ignorance on display.

On a side note, the title of this thread got me thinking... If the actions of the woman in the OP's news story are Southern Pride "gone wrong", then what is an acceptable example of displaying Southern Pride? (And I don't mean things like pride of your state that happens to be in The South.)

 

[princessmom29]

What the flag originally stood for and what it means to a vast majority of the population, NOW, are two entirely separate things. Like the swastika which originally stood for life, sun, power, strength, and good luck, it is a symbol that has been *******ized by a group whose main agenda is hate. Whether you agree, or not, the confederate flag has, in popular culture, become associated with groups that promote racism. Common usages change with time. 100 years ago if you said someone was "gay" everyone would assume them to be happy.

This woman, as ignorant and as inflammatory as she may be, has every right to fly this flag. It is insensitive to her neighbors, considering a good majority of them probably have ancestors who were owned by people who flew the same flag, but she is within her "rights" to do it. It doesn't make it right for her to do it, but she is within her rights. Morality cannot be legislated.

My question is this: Considering the fact that the original meaning of the swastika has been over shadowed by its use by the nazis, much in the same way the original meaning of the confederate flag has been over shadowed by its use by certain white supremacy groups, what would be your 1st impression of me if you drove by my house and saw a flag with a swastika on it hanging outside my house?

Would anyone's initial thought (or any thought) actually be "she is proud of her German heritage?" (I am not German BTW)

I think I would want to know more about WHY you were displyaing it. I don't automatically default to hate.

 

[LuvsDragonflies]

Just because the South lost the war doesn't mean they think they should have. I still don't see a problem with someone flying that flag. The Swastika has kind of become a universal sign of evil, the Confederate Flag has not.

It still stands for more than Slavery and always has. Can I see why black people wouldn't take kindly to it flying in their neighborhood, sure. Do I think the woman is purposefully flying it to be aggravating, yup. That doesn't take away the fact that the flag stands for more than oppressing black people. It's never stood for that. It's what people erroneously think it stands for.

 

[bunkkinsmom]

I'm not sure where you're going with this? I take pride in being Southern in many ways. I make dumplins that would make you want to smack somebody. I love love love my Carolina Tarheels. I sweeten my tea while it's warm so the sugar melts correctly. I believe that I live in the most beautiful place in the world, and I am PROUD to be from N.C. AND I put vinegar on my greens, onions on my pintos, and my BBQ doesn't have thick sauce on it.

Great, now I'm hungry........

 

[Conservative Hippie]

Just because the South lost the war doesn't mean they think they should have. I still don't see a problem with someone flying that flag. The Swastika has kind of become a universal sign of evil, the Confederate Flag has not.

It still stands for more than Slavery and always has. Can I see why black people wouldn't take kindly to it flying in their neighborhood, sure. Do I think the woman is purposefully flying it to be aggravating, yup. That doesn't take away the fact that the flag stands for more than oppressing black people. It's never stood for that. It's what people erroneously think it stands for.

I agree. I think she is being obnoxious at this point, but that doesn't make her a racist. I was born and raised for most of my life in Alabama. I knew people, white and black, with rebel flags on their pick-up trucks and belt buckles. Didn't make them bad people.

 

[BellvilleDad]

To set a few facts straight:

99% of the people who fought for the south in the civil war never owned a slave nor did they fight for slavery. They fought because a foreign army invaded their home states. States were much more important than the "nation" back then, in fact, most people didn't consider themselves "American" in our modern sense of the word - they were Virginians or New Yorkers or <insert state here>. "America" didn't really become "The United States of" until after the Civil War. If a foreign power decided to invade your area today you might defend it as well. Even if you lose the subsequent war your future ancestors may still be proud of your actions.

The Civil War was fought over money. Just like most politics in modern life it all comes down to the almighty dollar. The Federal government was doing things that made the north wealthy and the south less-so and yes, that included slavery, but the real issue was money. The Southern states decided that if the US Gov was doing things that harmed them they should seceed. The states had voluntarily joined the union, ergo they should be allowed to voluntarily leave the union. If I sign up for a gym membership today I shouldn't be held to it for life if the gym does things I don't like. Maybe I'll get a Bowflex in my house instead.

Just because a very small percentage of people use a Confederate battle flag as a symbol of racism does not make all southerners racist, not does it make anyone who is proud of the actions of their southern ancestors to be racists or bad people.

News flash: there are and were racists in the north as well. Where did the Underground Railroad mostly stop? Canada. Why? Because excaped slaves often had such a bad time of things once in the northern states it was safer to go to Canada.

When Lincoln passed the Emmancipation Proclimation (a useless document at the time, by the way) there were riots in the north and near mutinies in the northern armies by those who wanted nothing to do with a war about or for slavery.

There is racism everywhere. Racist whites, racist blacks, racist Asians, etc. To think otherwise is pure ignorance and to focus so intently on just white southerners is no better than the racism itself.

It is possible to be both proud of one's southern heritage and the action of one's Confederate ancestors and not be racist.

And one reason so many still keep the South "alive" today is that many of the same issues still exist politically - is the Federal government too powerful, infringing upon our rights, doing things they shouldn't be doing? I think many today, regardless of political party, would say yes. Just as the Tea Party invokes the spirit of the American Revolution there are others who look to Southern secession as the same spirit (indeed it was considered by many to be the Second American Revolution, not a Civil War, at the time).

QFT

 

[FireDancer]

Hmm, I wonder what the northern equivalent of southern pride is? I like my city and my state but I don't dwell on being from a state that fought on the side of the Union and I can't say I've every really heard of people doing much of that up north. I guess in Gettysburg they do but that is more for tourism than northern pride.

I get being proud of where you are from but why do it in the context of a war from 150 years ago?

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

Hmm, I wonder what the northern equivalent of southern pride is? I like my city and my state but I don't dwell on being from a state that fought on the side of the Union and I can't say I've every really heard of people doing much of that up north. I guess in Gettysburg they do but that is more for tourism than northern pride.

I get being proud of where you are from but why do it in the context of a war from 150 years ago?

Speaking as a man from the South, Southern pride has nothing to do with the Civil War, other than possibly having lost loved ones in that war. For most, it is simply a pride in your heritage.

 

[bunkkinsmom]

Hmm, I wonder what the northern equivalent of southern pride is? I like my city and my state but I don't dwell on being from a state that fought on the side of the Union and I can't say I've every really heard of people doing much of that up north. I guess in Gettysburg they do but that is more for tourism than northern pride.

I get being proud of where you are from but why do it in the context of a war from 150 years ago?

That's kindof my point. I'm proud of being Southern for a lot of reasons that really don't have anything to do with "the war". Having said that, I do believe that in a lot of ways I get irritated by stereotypes of Southerners, and that makes me stronger in my opinions. I will tell you that in my personal experience a lot of people from other parts of the country hear a southern accent and assume that we are ignorant racists. I take great pride in proving them wrong. And it never ceases to amaze me how many people I have come across that have moved here from other parts of the country and feel that it is totally ok to bash different aspects of our lives and make jokes at our expense. Then it turns to a vicious cycle of "well if you don't like it then go back to where you came from" "what a stupid thing to say" "you're the one who doesn't like it here" "but I can live wherever I want, it's a free country" "then quit complaining" etc etc etc........ I've seen fights over it, it's ridiculous. The population of Raleigh almost tripled from 1987 - 1997 and now it's been named as America's Best City by businessweek.com. There's obviously some good stuff going on down here!

 

[FireDancer]

Speaking as a man from the South, Southern pride has nothing to do with the Civil War, other than possibly having lost loved ones in that war. For most, it is simply a pride in your heritage.

I wonder why then so many people use an artifact from the civil war to show that pride. Even those that don't personally are stating that the display of the Confederate battle flag is because of southern pride. I have no real objection to the flag and don't jump to racism every time I see it but it does beg the question why use it as a symbol at all?

 

[LIDisneyFan]

NO IT WAS NOT!!!!! The Confederacy had ITS OWN PLAN to END SLAVERY. NO ONE WAS FIGHTING FOR THE RIGHT TO OWN SLAVES!!!!! TOTAL FALLACY!!!!!! Everyone on all sides agreed that slavery was bad and had to end. That was NOT,NOT,NOT the reason the civil war was faught.

Really?

"The anti-slavery party contend that slavery is wrong in itself, and the Government is a consolidated national democracy. We of the South contend that slavery is right, and that this is a confederate Republic of sovereign States"

Congressman Laurence Keitt (SC), advisor to Jefferson Davis, in a speech to the House on succession

 

[Geoff_M]

I'm not sure where you're going with this? I take pride in being Southern in many ways. I make dumplins that would make you want to smack somebody. I love love love my Carolina Tarheels. I sweeten my tea while it's warm so the sugar melts correctly. I believe that I live in the most beautiful place in the world, and I am PROUD to be from N.C. AND I put vinegar on my greens, onions on my pintos, and my BBQ doesn't have thick sauce on it.

Great, now I'm hungry........

I honestly don't have a preconceived answer to my question. I also don't think dietary habits, or things like what we call carbonated soft drinks or the thing that dispenses water into our sinks, are expressions of regional "pride". Someone mentioned Gettysburg, and I confess that when I visit there I do feel certain elements of "Northern Pride" for what transpired there and the fact that some of my ancestors were there in the thick of things. I suppose I express those feelings through my patriotism in support of the "Union".

So what's a Southerner to do? We hear from many that flying the CSA Battle Flag as an expression of "Southern Pride" is culturally insensitive and unacceptable in many circles. So, when I looked at the OP's thread title "Southern pride gone wrong!", I wondered "Well, is there any such expression that isn't thought of as wrong?" For example, some Southern colleges have in recent years taken to removing the names of prominent Southern figures from the Civil War from the fronts of dormitories and classroom buildings in response to similar criticisms.

 

[Scurvy]

I wonder why then so many people use an artifact from the civil war to show that pride. Even those that don't personally are stating that the display of the Confederate battle flag is because of southern pride. I have no real objection to the flag and don't jump to racism every time I see it but it does beg the question why use it as a symbol at all?

I don't really get it either - but maybe it's because the flag represents a time that the South demonstrated their independence. It's one symbol from the time when the South was a separate entity from the rest of the country. It might also represent their belief in state's rights, which is what the South was fighting for. I can't think of another thing that would symbolize all that, though there could be something else that would.

 

[Conservative Hippie]

I honestly don't have a preconceived answer to my question. I also don't think that dietary habits, or things like what we call carbonated soft drinks or the thing that dispenses water into our sinks, are expressions of regional "pride". Someone mentioned Gettysburg, and I confess that when I visit there I do feel certain elements of "Northern Pride" for what transpired there and the fact that some of my ancestors were there in the thick of things. I suppose I express those feelings through my patriotism in support of the "Union".

So what's a Southerner to do? We hear from many that flying the CSA Battle Flag as an expression of "Southern Pride" is culturally insensitive and unacceptable in many circles. So, when I looked at the OP's thread title "Southern pride gone wrong!", I wondered "Well, is there any such expression that isn't thought of as wrong?" For example, some Southern colleges have in recent years taken to removing the names of prominent Southern figures from the Civil War from the fronts of dormitories and classroom buildings in response to similar criticisms.

Wasn't there something last year about someone being racist because they said something about fried chicken and collard greens?

 

[DarthKTrava]

I'm not sure where you're going with this? I take pride in being Southern in many ways. I make dumplins that would make you want to smack somebody. I love love love my Carolina Tarheels. I sweeten my tea while it's warm so the sugar melts correctly. I believe that I live in the most beautiful place in the world, and I am PROUD to be from N.C. AND I put vinegar on my greens, onions on my pintos, and my BBQ doesn't have thick sauce on it.

Great, now I'm hungry........

What does that mean, "I make dumplins that would make you want to smack somebody"?

Now I'm hungry too! Guess it's time to eat that Bojangles meal I took home from work yesterday.....

 

[bunkkinsmom]

Really?

"The anti-slavery party contend that slavery is wrong in itself, and the Government is a consolidated national democracy. We of the South contend that slavery is right, and that this is a confederate Republic of sovereign States"

Congressman Laurence Keitt (SC), advisor to Jefferson Davis, in a speech to the House on succession

"The effects of the New England slave trade were momentous. It was one of the foundations of New England's economic structure; it created a wealthy class of slave-trading merchants, while the profits derived from this commerce stimulated cultural development and philanthropy." --Lorenzo Johnston Greene

"Northerners profited from slavery in many ways, right up to the eve of the Civil War. The decline of slavery in the upper South is well documented, as is the sale of slaves from Virginia and Maryland to the cotton plantations of the Deep South. But someone had to get them there, and the U.S. coastal trade was firmly in Northern hands."

 

[FireDancer]

I don't really get it either - but maybe it's because the flag represents a time that the South demonstrated their independence. It's one symbol from the time when the South was a separate entity from the rest of the country. It might also represent their belief in state's rights, which is what the South was fighting for. I can't think of another thing that would symbolize all that, though there could be something else that would.

But why that particular flag? I haven't seen a lot of Bonnie Blue Flags or even the official Confederate States of America flag (especially the first flag) which would also symbolize the same thing without being such a hotbed issue.

Like I said, I get the pride thing and am not one of the "that flag is offensive in every context" people but at the same time it does evoke a negative stereotype from many people and brings up bad feelings from other people. The people who are trying to dispel the negative stereotype I'd think are the one who would most want to find another symbol.

 

[Golf4food]

I get being proud of where you are from but why do it in the context of a war from 150 years ago?

Why is the War of Northern Aggression such a big deal in the South?

Anyone who has driven "off the beaten path" in any Southern state should be able to answer that question if they open their eyes and look around.

Only one Southern capital east of the Mississippi River was not captured by Federals during the war (Tallahassee, FL). Of the rest most of them were severly damaged or nearly completely destroyed. Most other major cities were heavily damaged. Many smaller towns were completely destroyed. Many individual farms were damaged or destroyed. A very high percentage of the entire white male population of the South was killed or wounded during the war, directly impacting families after the fighting had long ended. Cities and towns that do survive today took years or decades to rebuild and even then most never fully recovered. The politics of Reconstruction was so restrictive that the economy in the South languished until after the invention of Air Conditioning and even today still lags behind much the rest of the country. (Thank God for air conditioning!)

There was no damage to northern cities. A smaller percentage of the population was impacted by the death and wounds. For the north the war was fought "down there". For the south it was fought on our front steps. Even in relatively unimportant Florida I grew up just minutes away from a battlefield where over 3,000 people where killed or wounded in just a few hours of fighting. In Virginia you can't throw a rock without it landing on a place where there's a high chance someone died during fighting at some point in the war.

People look back on the history of WWII and clearly see that the overly oppressive terms laid down at the end of WWI directly led to the rise of the Nazi regime and resulted in WWII. The Reconstruction politics in the south were just as bad and directly led to the creation of the KKK, which then evolved into the racial organization we all know today.

Why do the New England Patriots have Minute Men as mascots? The Revolution was fought in their front yards. It impacted them directly in a very real way. Why do Southerners hold a high place of honor upon the sacrifices of Confederate soldiers? The Civil War was fought in our front yards. It impacted us directly in a very real way and continued to do so for 100 years or more.

It is easy to ignore a war fought thousands of miles away. But when that war destroys everything around you and keeps it that way for multiple generations is has a way of sticking with you. Why did America turn against Vietnam? Because television brought it into their homes on a daily basis and made it real. The Civil War was very "real" in the south in much the same way, only on a much broader scale, and stayed that way will past the middle of the 20th century.

 

[Geoff_M]

"The effects of the New England slave trade were momentous. It was one of the foundations of New England's economic structure; it created a wealthy class of slave-trading merchants, while the profits derived from this commerce stimulated cultural development and philanthropy." --Lorenzo Johnston Greene

"Northerners profited from slavery in many ways, right up to the eve of the Civil War. The decline of slavery in the upper South is well documented, as is the sale of slaves from Virginia and Maryland to the cotton plantations of the Deep South. But someone had to get them there, and the U.S. coastal trade was firmly in Northern hands."

The bottom line is this: It's equally intellectually dishonest to say that the US Civil War was just about "State's Rights" as it is to try and say that it was just about whether Slavery should exist within the country's borders.