Sort of budget related...a vent

I didn't read through all the responses but perhaps you could suggest that she attend a local seminar on budgeting with you to try and drop her a hint. Our local craigslist and events paper has free seminars throughout the year. I once had a g/f that would always expect me to pay for lunch every time we would go out to eat. Although I didn't really have a problem with paying for it, it just totally got on my nerves that she wouldn't even offer or bring her wallet for that matter. I finally had to tell her that I couldn't continue to support her family as well as my own.
 
This sounds like it is very irritating and stressful to you. I personally would not want to live like that and would tell her the next time that this is the last time and you cannot loan her any more money.

I may sound harsh, but someone who continually has to borrow for life's necessities has no business splurging on anything. Even once a year. JMO.
 
I know that a lot of people here have suggested that you cut your friend off. I have to chime in here and say that I am not one of them. Your friend seems to be guilty of three crimes here (1) treating herself ONCE A YEAR and (2) being too proud to seek a food pantry or food stamps and (3) using you as her personal pay-day loan company. Personally, I have no problem with (1) or (2) and only you know if you can continue to help her family through tough times or not. From your posts she doesn't seem like she is continually squandering money for luxuries. She only asks you for money when she is desperate to feed her kids. Finally, she always pays you back. IMO, she is NOT a deadbeat. She certainly has some cash flow issues but will you really teach her those lessons through the empty stomachs of her children? Really? If the answer is "yes" then being petty is the least of your problems.

I would recommend that you continue to support your friend and her kids.

I agree with you.If she always pays back,then continue to help .Now if she doesn't ,then she can bring up the other items she spends on.Otherwise what's the problem?
 
I don't think you should cut her off as a friend. If you genuinely like her and she is your friend then she should remain your friend. It does sound as if you resent having to bail her out financially, and that can put a strain on a friendship. I am not suggesting you be mean or catty or try to overtly "teach her a lesson." I'm not saying give her a budget book, or snark about her boots or purse, my advice is just don't lend her money. You can simply tell her "No, I'm sorry, I just don't have it to spare." maybe after a few refusals she will realize that she can't use you as a back up plan, and try to budget herself better. I would have no second thoughts about bailing her out if it were a "rough" time or she were going through something unplanned or unforeseen, such as illness or loss of a job, but this seems to be an ongoing problem, and she needs to make changes in her lifestyle.

Maybe have her look into www.angelfoodministries.com
 

You just made me feel so good to read your post, because (long story short - I was talking about a friend in e.mail and instead of sending it to another friend I sent it to the friend that I was talking about:eek:) Which turned into a bad situation, but I finally told this friend that friend to friend I'm very very worried about her and worried about her financial decisions, which she let me know was none of my business and something friends don't critisize other friends about. I know this particular couple claimed bankruptcy 1.5 years ago, but she has never told me this, I know last year, they didn't pay their mortgage for six months and then again stopped paying their mortgage in August, their kids had a huge Christmas that they can not afford, but by not paying your mortgage it gives you extra money for the important thing. In March every year either their electric or gas is shut off for failure to pay, but she goes to bingo every Saturday and her husband doesn't miss a weekend of beer or tobacco, even when there's no money for anything. She has a huge scratch ticket issue and recently was at Foxwoods by herself and won $1200, instead of spening that money on something important they went out and bought a 42 inch TV for their kids playroom. Long story short again - I don't think we can make people realize their irresponsible spending and financial habits because there is always someone there to pick up the pieces, but I'm glad to know that I'm not alone in the way I feel.
 
Let me start by saying I respect your opinion here. I am just going to disagree. But do not take this as a disrespectful post it is not.

1. Are you going to teach her a lesson? Sounds like someone needs to.
2. If my kids were in need....I would not be too proud to ask a food pantry, or the government for assistance. People in America do not have to starve.
If she is too proud to ask for help.....to feed her kids....I don't think so.
3. Being petty is NOT the least of the OP's problems. Being responsible, charitable, caring, and sometimes a realist are qualities I think are worth having.

OP....give to a local food bank. Find a local church who runs one. Donate food or money to them. When your friend asks for help again. Refer her to the food bank.

I respect your opinion, but disagree with the food pantry / gov. assistance suggestion. I think that it is far more responsible to take a loan from a friend and pay it back. I hear so many people complain about people on welfare and such. I don't have a problem with poeple in need getting gov't assistance AT ALL. I do think that OP's friend might need some money management skills. I think this really sounds like a "from time to time" scenario unlike some other situations people are talking about.

I also think that sometimes people who have family don't even realize how difficult it can be for those who do not. Many people get more help from Mom and Dad than they will admit or simply don't see all the "little ways" having family helps. Some examples:

Gifts to the kids (Christmas, Bdays, etc.) Imagine that you are the only ones that buy anything for your kids...ever.

Free/cheap babysitting (for a night out or while you work)

Taking your family out to dinner or even simply providing the Thanksgiving, Easter, and Christmas meals.

I also see many posts on this board from people that have received inheritances, large gifts, free vacations, etc. from family. That's great! I am truly happy for you. I just hope that those same people remember that not everyone has been as blessed.

OP, I think you are a great friend. Maybe someday your money management skills will rub off on your friend. As long as she pays you back and you can afford it, I'd lend her the money. The first time she doesn't pay you back, tell her to consider it a gift, but you cannot lend her money anymore. She will probably end up at the food pantry and it will be okay. I doubt she will let her kids starve.

I admit I am curious as to why she doesn't have a job. I can think of a few possibilities (not able to make more than pay in daycare, husband has odd or irregular hours so cannot work opposite shifts, having only one car can make it tricky depending on the aree where you live, or just can't find one - like many people right now). Just curious. Maybe you could help her in some way to make finding / keeping a job a possibility for her.
 
This is a tough one. Because while your friend shouldn't splurge when they have other needs, this isn't your usual deadbeat friend/relative situation. It sounds like she only splurges once a year with the tax return, and needs your help about four or five times a year for relatively small amounts, AND she pays you back when you do help her.

Obviously helping her isn't really teaching her anything, and you've tried to bring up the subject of budgeting and such to her without success. I would say to let her know that things are tight in your family now too, and you can't help by lending money anymore. You can maybe cook a nice big casserole for them to help with meals, or give her rides to various places since they don't have a car, things like that. But you can no longer assist with money. Tell her you feel SO bad for not being able to lend money, and again offer to help them learn to budget.

If things really do get bad for them, you can always help them out if needed. But I'd give her a gentle "no" first and see how they manage. It may be just what they need to start to figure it out for themselves.
 
If things really do get bad for them, you can always help them out if needed. But I'd give her a gentle "no" first and see how they manage. It may be just what they need to start to figure it out for themselves.
This is what I was trying to get at. OP's friend needs to either learn better money management skills, or find a way to add to her family's income. OP lending her money, even if its only a handful of times a year, is not really helping them in the long run.

I like the suggestion someone made of, next time she asks for a loan, tell her you will loan her what she needs but this has to be the last time, as things are getting tight for your own family. That way she's not left hanging for that week, but she also knows that she can't rely on OP the next time. It may be the push she needs to make a positive change in the way she manages her money.
 
I respect your opinion, but disagree with the food pantry / gov. assistance suggestion. I think that it is far more responsible to take a loan from a friend and pay it back. I hear so many people complain about people on welfare and such. I don't have a problem with poeple in need getting gov't assistance AT ALL. I do think that OP's friend might need some money management skills. I think this really sounds like a "from time to time" scenario unlike some other situations people are talking about.

I also think that sometimes people who have family don't even realize how difficult it can be for those who do not. Many people get more help from Mom and Dad than they will admit or simply don't see all the "little ways" having family helps. Some examples:

Gifts to the kids (Christmas, Bdays, etc.) Imagine that you are the only ones that buy anything for your kids...ever.

Free/cheap babysitting (for a night out or while you work)

Taking your family out to dinner or even simply providing the Thanksgiving, Easter, and Christmas meals.

I also see many posts on this board from people that have received inheritances, large gifts, free vacations, etc. from family. That's great! I am truly happy for you. I just hope that those same people remember that not everyone has been as blessed.

OP, I think you are a great friend. Maybe someday your money management skills will rub off on your friend. As long as she pays you back and you can afford it, I'd lend her the money. The first time she doesn't pay you back, tell her to consider it a gift, but you cannot lend her money anymore. She will probably end up at the food pantry and it will be okay. I doubt she will let her kids starve.

I admit I am curious as to why she doesn't have a job. I can think of a few possibilities (not able to make more than pay in daycare, husband has odd or irregular hours so cannot work opposite shifts, having only one car can make it tricky depending on the aree where you live, or just can't find one - like many people right now). Just curious. Maybe you could help her in some way to make finding / keeping a job a possibility for her.


Some points. 1) If you are buying so many gifts that you can't afford to eat, you are irresponsible. Period. Your kids are better off with a few small gifts and food on the table, than a giant booty under the tree and empty bellies. Someone needs to be an adult

2) If you can't afford to feed your kids you don't need "a night out." again, priorities. Again, someone needs to be an adult.

3) Work opposite shifts Been there, done that.

4) Find a flexible job. Clean houses, babysit in your own house. Ebay

5) get a bus pass or walk. You gotta do what you gotta do. I would bet money the OP would rather give her a lift to work than give her money.
 
4) Find a flexible job. Clean houses, babysit in your own house. Ebay.
Ditto this. Especially since it sounds like OP's friend just needs a little extra $ every once in a while to help them get by. There are many ways to make a couple hundred $ a month that are not a "traditional" job. We're in this boat right now - it would not make sense for us to put our DD in daycare so my partner can work, as daycare costs would eat up most of what she'd make. So we're looking for other ways she can make a little $ and still be home with DD. She's been doing a little eBaying here & there, which so far has been enough to pay the electric/gas bill each month. It's not a lot, but that's one less bill that has to be paid out of my paycheck.
 
I used to work with a girl -- the same story! She was always broke and always borrowing from everyone for car repairs, etc.

bUt the minute her tax refund came -- she was off to vegas! EVERY YEAR! And her reasoning.............I DESERVE IT!

In the end, no one at work respected her (or loaned her money anymore.)
 
My personal view is: No good can ever come from loaning money to friends or family. Give it as a gift if you can afford to.

When I was in my early tweenties, my girlfriends father didn't have the downpayment for his new truck and she spoke up and told him that I had money and would loan it to him. Of course this was news to me and put me in a bad situation. I loaned the money and it was repaid in a month. I told her to never do that again, as it was NOT her money.

Fast forward 20 years, we are now married and her parents offered to provide daycare for our daughter for free. So we gave them $20k cash towards a new vehicle. They have provided free daycare and transportation to and from school for 4 years. It was the best investment I ever made.
 
I know that a lot of people here have suggested that you cut your friend off. I have to chime in here and say that I am not one of them. Your friend seems to be guilty of three crimes here (1) treating herself ONCE A YEAR and (2) being too proud to seek a food pantry or food stamps and (3) using you as her personal pay-day loan company. Personally, I have no problem with (1) or (2) and only you know if you can continue to help her family through tough times or not. From your posts she doesn't seem like she is continually squandering money for luxuries. She only asks you for money when she is desperate to feed her kids. Finally, she always pays you back. IMO, she is NOT a deadbeat. She certainly has some cash flow issues but will you really teach her those lessons through the empty stomachs of her children? Really? If the answer is "yes" then being petty is the least of your problems.

I would recommend that you continue to support your friend and her kids.

ITA :thumbsup2
 
Hmmm just a side thought, next time she needs money see if she just might have a nearly new pair of uggs she can sell you. Or maybe a coach purse?
 
RobinB,no disrespect intended, but I disagree. Just b/c you get a tax return doesn't mean it's splurge time. I'm sorry,but it's not ok to do that knowing you'll need food money soon. It's NOT ok to spend what you can't afford,no matter what 'everybody else' gets. We don't have a large inheritance,free gifts from relatives pouring in,or anything else like that. we simply pay our bills,and live within our means. Now,I am not stingy by any means,and will give to those in need,but a 'friend' who consistently overspends when they get a small windfall,then has hungry kids later is not what I consider need. If it happens more than once,it's no ,mistake,it's a pattern.
If anything,I'd be sure the kids didn't starve- but I wouldn't be their personal bank .
FWIW,my dh and I treat any $$$ from a tax return(believe me,it's never much,on purpose) as more $$$ for our savings acct.
And I also don't think it's snarky to suggest good budget reading. Or to mention that those splurge boots = a whole lot of milk money. I don't feel responsible for other people choices in life,and it sounds to me like this is a choice OP's friend has made,not a need.
I realize this isn't popular to think this way,but I really dislike the idea of kids without ANY food at all after the parents buy stuff they don't need.
If the parent can't put 2 and2 together (overspending now creates a need later) then maybe OP can truly do her friend a favor and share this info. with her.
 
RobinB,no disrespect intended, but I disagree. Just b/c you get a tax return doesn't mean it's splurge time. I'm sorry,but it's not ok to do that knowing you'll need food money soon. It's NOT ok to spend what you can't afford,no matter what 'everybody else' gets. We don't have a large inheritance,free gifts from relatives pouring in,or anything else like that. we simply pay our bills,and live within our means. Now,I am not stingy by any means,and will give to those in need,but a 'friend' who consistently overspends when they get a small windfall,then has hungry kids later is not what I consider need. If it happens more than once,it's no ,mistake,it's a pattern.
If anything,I'd be sure the kids didn't starve- but I wouldn't be their personal bank .
FWIW,my dh and I treat any $$$ from a tax return(believe me,it's never much,on purpose) as more $$$ for our savings acct.
And I also don't think it's snarky to suggest good budget reading. Or to mention that those splurge boots = a whole lot of milk money. I don't feel responsible for other people choices in life,and it sounds to me like this is a choice OP's friend has made,not a need.
I realize this isn't popular to think this way,but I really dislike the idea of kids without ANY food at all after the parents buy stuff they don't need.
If the parent can't put 2 and2 together (overspending now creates a need later) then maybe OP can truly do her friend a favor and share this info. with her.
I thought I would respond since your post was directed at me (and I read NO disrespect in it, just an opinion :hug:).

I am blessed to be comfortable financially. I own Coach purses and Ugg boots. We vacation 3 times a year, twice at WDW. I spend a ton of money so my DD can take dance classes and swim competitively. I do not have to count every penny, but neither do I squander money. I assess most purchases and downgrade if I need to because I don't go into debt.

That being said ... I feel for the OP's friend. Yes, she treated herself with a bag last year and boots this year. That $150-$200 spent would have covered her short-fall now. Saving her tax return for the March rainy day would have been the smart thing to do. The responsible thing to do. But ... how many years can one live pay-check to pay-check and NOT splurge a little on yourself? It's easy to say that you live within your means. I do too. But I don't think either one of us would be considered "working poor". I cannot begin to imagine how she must feel every single week not knowing if her DH will make enough to pay the bills, keep a roof over her head and feed the kids. Yes, there is a pattern. She spends $100-$200 on a luxury item ONCE a year that will LAST her years. Last year's bag will still be on her shoulder well after a half dozen Wal*Mart bags bite the dust. She will still be wearing those boots years after K-Mart specials wear out.

If the OP's friend treated herself regularly (like some of the stories on this thread, my own included) and then cry poor and borrow money all the time then I would feel differently. But spending $200 once a year ... meh.

I guess if this really does bother the OP then she should talk to her friend about it. If she holds in all the anger and angst over the boots it will poison the relationship.
 
I thought I would respond since your post was directed at me (and I read NO disrespect in it, just an opinion :hug:).

I am blessed to be comfortable financially. I own Coach purses and Ugg boots. We vacation 3 times a year, twice at WDW. I spend a ton of money so my DD can take dance classes and swim competitively. I do not have to count every penny, but neither do I squander money. I assess most purchases and downgrade if I need to because I don't go into debt.

That being said ... I feel for the OP's friend. Yes, she treated herself with a bag last year and boots this year. That $150-$200 spent would have covered her short-fall now. Saving her tax return for the March rainy day would have been the smart thing to do. The responsible thing to do. But ... how many years can one live pay-check to pay-check and NOT splurge a little on yourself? It's easy to say that you live within your means. I do too. But I don't think either one of us would be considered "working poor". I cannot begin to imagine how she must feel every single week not knowing if her DH will make enough to pay the bills, keep a roof over her head and feed the kids. Yes, there is a pattern. She spends $100-$200 on a luxury item ONCE a year that will LAST her years. Last year's bag will still be on her shoulder well after a half dozen Wal*Mart bags bite the dust. She will still be wearing those boots years after K-Mart specials wear out.

If the OP's friend treated herself regularly (like some of the stories on this thread, my own included) and then cry poor and borrow money all the time then I would feel differently. But spending $200 once a year ... meh.

I guess if this really does bother the OP then she should talk to her friend about it. If she holds in all the anger and angst over the boots it will poison the relationship.

Gotta disagree. If you are in the situation that you are never sure whether your spouse/partner will bring home enough to feed your kids, then you have absolutely no right to "splurge" on anything. I will, again, qualify this by saying I am a spender. I like designer purses, and shoes, We won't even go into clothes and lingerie! In addition, if things are that desperate, then you need to get up and GET A JOB. You chose to have those children, it is your responsibility to feed and clothe them. I consider myself fortunate, too. We live well, we have a nice house, and nice cars. We travel. We have all this because we worked for it. Period. No one handed it to us. It did not fall out of the sky, we didn't hit the lottery, it wasn't inherited. We earned it. While you may have no problem lending or giving money, clearly the OP is beginning to resent it, and that is the problem. She feels obligated to help this friends children, but the friend herself feels no obligation toward her own children. She buys $150 boots and purses that cost anywhere from $200-$500, yet several times out of the year she didn't have enough to feed her own children. Not because there was a sudden change in circumstance, such as illness or getting laid off, but because she decided to spend her money on Christmas presents. It is childish and irresponsible. What would she do if she didn't have the OP to bail her out? Would her kids go hungry? I would truly hate to think that is the case. It is not fair to rely on other people to shoulder your responsibility.
 
I consider myself fortunate, too. We live well, we have a nice house, and nice cars. We travel. We have all this because we worked for it. Period. No one handed it to us. It did not fall out of the sky, we didn't hit the lottery, it wasn't inherited. We earned it.
I am all for personal responsibility, but I just want to point out that many people would consider what we do to be irresponsible too. All that money we spend on nice cars and travel COULD be saved for retirement. We are off squandering money on things we don't need when we could be saving all of it for a rainy day or when we can no longer earn it. It's all about perspectives :confused3.
 
I am all for personal responsibility, but I just want to point out that many people would consider what we do to be irresponsible too. All that money we spend on nice cars and travel COULD be saved for retirement. We are off squandering money on things we don't need when we could be saving all of it for a rainy day or when we can no longer earn it. It's all about perspectives :confused3.

Oh, we're doing that, too. The difference is I don't have to ask anyone to pick up the difference.
 
OP here - thank you for all your thoughtful posts on this topic. To give you a better idea of my past actions, let me say that I have almost always treated things as loans ($ for major Christmas shopping or groceries) because I don't want our friendship to become a parent/child thing or for there to be an "I owe you" feeling, which is how I think it would become if I gifted everything instead of loaning money. :confused3

I have, however, for a number of years, given Christmas and birthday presents to the kids (usually a small gift card for them all at each ones b-day because otherwise they might literally have gotten nothing some years), and at Christmas the past few years I have done a grocery store gift card because I know their finances are really tight, especially around the holidays. I know they can't reciprocate, but that's alright - and I hope they don't feel like they need to. She definitely tries to do nice things for my kids when she can (little tokens here and there as the opportunity arises).

Sadly....I just found out this week that "all caught up" with bills actually means they still owe their utility company quite a chunk of change ($1K plus evidently - but less than they have owed the past few years); they've had their utilities (gas and electric) shut off before because of non-payment. The same with phones (land line before, now cells), but they are evidently caught up on that, thankfully. What really got me about that was the fees they paid to have things reinstated would have gone a long ways in paying bills... :( They do get assistance with winter utility bills from a state agency, and she has mentioned they have received help with food from a local church/food pantry in the past a time or two.

It's just that none of this seems isolated - it's how they live. Her DH's job is quite consistent, so they honestly know how much they have and how long it has to last. It is nearly always a crisis, though. I have suggested a job, but there is always a reason it won't work. Now that her kids are older (they're in middle school, nearly high school) it seems like a daytime job would be good, but she says she needs to be there in case they get sick and need to come home. That happens to every mom, but you deal with it. :confused3 Yes, your employer may not like it, and if it happened too much you'd be looking for a new job, but you do what you need to do to get by IMO. I know I've taken some less-than-ideal jobs to pay the bills in the past.

Anyways, I suppose the reason this info all comes around to me is that I try to provide a ride to and from the grocery store at least every other week so they don't have to call a cab to bring home groceries. I know they spend some $20 or $30 on a cab when they have to use one which will buy a LOT of food, so why waste that money if I can give a ride. But because I provide a ride, I hear a lot about how much things are costing, or how little $ there are for groceries - I think it's just a natural thought process when you're headed to the store to spend a big chunk of your hard-earned cash.

As for it being an isolated splurge, that is probably true. There aren't many splurges like this in her life. I know it happens a couple/few times a year, but not much. And I think, were I in her shoes, I'd feel a strong desire to do the same. I just think (or, perhaps more accurately, hope) that need would be overridden by the need to pay my bills and feed my children. I know when DH and I were struggling financially all extras went out the window. We made do with bare necessities until our finances were better. The difference is likely that things DID improve for us within a couple years where, for them, this is a constant state. That probably would wear me down.

So, after that looooong lead-in, I'm thinking I'm going to continue doing as I have. I can't fix things for them but, as many pointed out, I could probably make it much worse by not loaning a few dollars when they need it. I'll also continue dropping off a gallon of milk and loaf of bread once in a while as a gift - it isn't much, but I think it really eases things for them a bit. And I'm going to try and just let it go when things like the boots - or whatever - irk me. It isn't worth losing a friend over, and I don't see - after all these years - things changing just because I say something.

Thank you for letting me vent, and for acting as a sounding board. Hearing your thoughts has really helped me see what is most important here.
 


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