Some input on training in preparation for the Goofy

[budpaulsaint]

Hey guys, I'm been hanging out almost exclusively at the WDW Marathon Weekend thread but I was hoping to solicit some advice as we're coming up on four months until the big day(s).

I've been following a set training schedule for the past couple of months and I've felt comfortable with it. It involves long runs on Sundays (starting at 3 miles in July, now up to 10 miles next weekend with drop-back miles every three weeks or so so it's not just a constant build), short runs on Wednesday and Friday (usually three miles, though occasionally dropping to two, through they look to go up to 4-5 as the training continues) and a Fartlek (with the occasional elliptical) day on Thursday, usually for 30 minutes. According to the training, I'll top out at 20 miles on December 12.

Here's where it gets interesting. If I were simply sticking to this plan, I'd feel fairly comfortable about my performance going in. That assumes though that my goal is to "only" run the marathon and not the Goofy. With that in mind, I've toyed a bit with doing some back-to-back weekends in an effort to prepare my body for the pounding of such an undertaking. I tried one about a month ago and ran a 3-7 Sat/Sun and it went well. But then last weekend I attempted a 5-10 Sat/Sun and the strain on my knees and hips nearly did me in. The previous week I had run nine miles on Sunday and it is my belief that I simply tried to up my mileage too much in just one week (going from 9 miles one day to 15 miles over two days). I guess I'm wondering if this theory holds water - is there really a build-up or accumulation of miles over two days that can adversely affect performance on that second day? If so, how do I properly prepare for 39.3 miles that I'll be hoping to accomplish come January?

Is there some sort of formula, like if I run x miles on Saturday, how many miles does it feel like I'm adding onto Sunday's run? Is running 5 miles on Saturday and 10 miles on Sunday the same as just running 15 miles on Sunday? Or is it less?

Anyway, lot to chew on there. #1 - is my existing training regimen sufficient; #2 - are limited back-to-backs really the best way to prep for the Goofy; #3 - how much of a factor is accumulation of mileage when working over multiple days?

Any insight my wizened friends here can provide would be appreciated.

 

[cewait]

First, you do not need to run a bunch of back-to-back runs to have a great Goofy weekend. It is simply not required. Higdon’s intermediate plan has back to backs all plan long but I find that many folks who train in this plan end up injured; not because of the plan –because they are simply not intermediate with regard to the load.

I think your build up is a solid build up with a periodization built in. if you feel the need to experience a couple back-to-backs then put one of your weekday runs in front of the long run and do it on a pullback weekend. All you are trying to do is get the feel for hitting the road on heavy legs.

Another way to get the same feeling is to perform a heavy leg work out a day before the long run and run through the DOMS coming from that workout - less pounding but still on tired muscle.

I think I may have made 7-8 back to backs in the 5 years of Goofy. Add one this year for scrapping an 8 mile run at the 4 mile mark and picking it up and running the next morning.

I know that for every person out there doing one long run a week there are about the same number doing back to backs. Last year I was able to discuss this and a few other things with a few other perfect Goofies… None that I was able to talk with run a consistent back to back.

Hope this helps.

 

[budpaulsaint]

I knew I could count on you, sir! Here I was cruising along at a nice rate and then I go make two rookie mistakes - trying to up my mileage ahead of the prescribed curb and doing that back-to-back last weekend.
I'm glad to hear that I appear to be on the right track as far as my overall program. I just need to just not make these kinds of mistakes.

I guess my big question is, am I on the right track with this Goofy plan: I've been developing a decent pace over the months and was figuring on running about a nine-minute mile, but I'm thinking that I'll "save" a lot if I back down my half marathon speed to 10:30-11 minutes, then see how my body feels come Sunday in order to determine that day's pace. Some people I've spoken to seem to believe that "taking it easy" on the half really allows you to be in a good position for the full. Or should I just run like I always do and let the chips fall where they may?

 

[cewait]

There are three thoughts on how to approach the weekend.

1- Easy half – harder full
2- harder half – easy full
3- Training Pace both races
4- Push in both.

Ok that is four but number 4 can leave you on the side of the road in the dead cockroach position. Let me throw this at you and you can make up your mind. You come into the weekend and race twice – only one of these races will be on a fresh set of legs. Why not have a decent race on the fresh legs? It is not an all out let me pass out at the finish line effort but why not stretch things out and have a great run? If one opts for the other then how slow should one run the half? One runs a huge risk of actually overly fatiguing stabilizer muscles if they go too slow in the half. It comes from a change in the use of these smaller, easily fatigued muscles in a different pattern and using them longer than needed.

The cost for running a decent half is that one must recover during the day. That includes a nice post run meal in your checked bag to assure getting nutrients into the muscle quickly. Having a nice lunch that includes a healthy fat component as well as getting up and walking the resort a few times in the afternoon; taking time to stretch out the legs 2-3 times while out.

Yes, one will have a bit of tenderness in the legs as they start off but the little hill at mile 1 will allow you to work that out. From there all one needs to understand is that around mile 15-18 the wall feeling will kick in.

The predominate in 2006 thought was an easy half and good full. I only ran into one runner before the half who thought differently – and that was in the starting corral. We were both seeding ourselves consistent with an easy half but decided as we waited forever to push the start a bit and clear the crowd. In 2007 the mentality had changed and the runners I run the Goofy with are mostly running the half and playing in the full. Before those who know me pop in I should disclose that I have PR’s the half in all but the 2010 half and PRd the 2006 full then came back to set a course best in 09 in the full. 2010 was a year of recovery from multiple bike wrecks and other life issues.

 

[Tiger Lily 03]

You've heard that you have a solid training plan and pretty much all choices you can do.

I would say too that it is not necessary to do those back to backs. I have done Goofy doing them and not. However, I'm much slower and I am not in it to PR. One thing I'd like to emphasize is trying to stay healthy and injury free during the training as that mileage increases. It can and is often body brutal. If you feel you must do b2b, I had been given a training idea from a friend whose coach outlined it. The weeks where the 12 miler begins is where the b2b began. It was every other week where mileage increased (12, 14, 16, 18, 20) and the b2b was during that time. It worked for me, but again, it also worked for me to train for the full and go with that on the event weekend. I do not use WDW to PR, rather it's Disney play for me.

Pay attention to what you are feeling and train accordingly.

 

[budpaulsaint]

Fantastic insights; my thanks to the both of you.
I had assumed that my post-race focus on Saturday would be a study in accelerated recovery. I've become accustomed to my post race ice baths so that was on the itinerary, as was some walking (my wife and young daughters will be visiting Epcot that day and I thought that I'd join them for a few hours) and light stretching throughout the afternoon. I hadn't considered a post race meal in my bag - what do you find works best?
Couple all this with a smart, solid lunch and dinner, followed by an early (8-ish) bedtime and I might actually be in decent shape come Sunday!

 

[cewait]

I will bring something pre-packaged and not needed to be in a cooler. PowerBar used to market a recovery bar that worked very well. For the half I will usually pack a Cliff Builder's Bar. http://www.clifbar.com/food/products_builders/ The ratios for the bar are a little off for a great recovery meal but I couple that with a bottle of PowerAde from the finish area and the ratio nears the 4:1 ratio suggested as the goal by studies.


Oh and for the record, I do not suggest intentionally setting PR's in the half - rather a solid race.

 

[budpaulsaint]

I will bring something pre-packaged and not needed to be in a cooler. PowerBar used to market a recovery bar that worked very well. For the half I will usually pack a Cliff Builder's Bar. http://www.clifbar.com/food/products_builders/ The ratios for the bar are a little off for a great recovery meal but I couple that with a bottle of PowerAde from the finish area and the ratio nears the 4:1 ratio suggested as the goal by studies.


Oh and for the record, I do not suggest intentionally setting PR's in the half - rather a solid race.

Do you also partake in the standard post-race fare - the bananas and bagels and such or do you bypass that in favor of just the recovery bar/PowerAde?

 

[cewait]

If it has been warm I will grab a banana. Otherwise Disney is a little unique. all other food stuff is pre-packaged. In fact if you keep your eyes open they may have sample sized Builder's Bars in the finish area. Before Cliff it was junk stuff like Otis Spunkmiers (sp) cookies and that kind of fare.

 

[budpaulsaint]

I actually did find the PowerAde recovery bar per your suggestion. I'll give it a try this Sunday after my 10-miler.

Here's a question - if a recovery bar and a PowerAde basically fits the criteria of a good recovery meal, would have two bars and two PowerAdes be twice as effective? Or is there a diminishing returns thing working there?

 

[cewait]

I actually did find the PowerAde recovery bar per your suggestion. I'll give it a try this Sunday after my 10-miler.

Here's a question - if a recovery bar and a PowerAde basically fits the criteria of a good recovery meal, would have two bars and two PowerAdes be twice as effective? Or is there a diminishing returns thing working there?

Definitely a diminishing return at some point. I try to hold the immediate recovery meal to no more than 20% of Kcal expenditures. It’s been a while since I studied the research to understand what the Kcal ranges are. I just locked in on the 20% factor to assure I was not pouring empty CHO back into the system after working it off.

 

[jwalker1]

Thanks everyone for this discussion, it was helpful and needed. I signed up for the Goofy Challenge in March. But sadly, I was diagnosed with asthma in July (yeah, I did not see that coming.) and I am not sure I can do back to back anything at the moment. With that said, I glad to hear that back to back weekends are not entirely necessary. So, that makes me feel better and I am going to revamp my training schedule.

I am doing a marathon in October as a training race for the Goofy, it will be my first. I felt that I need a little more race experience before I tackled 39.3 in one weekend. Furthermore, I am going to do my best in January and see what happens.

 

[budpaulsaint]

Hey, James! Just do your best. I'm sure you'll do great! Good luck.

 

[Duanerice]

I will bring something pre-packaged and not needed to be in a cooler. PowerBar used to market a recovery bar that worked very well. For the half I will usually pack a Cliff Builder's Bar. http://www.clifbar.com/food/products_builders/ The ratios for the bar are a little off for a great recovery meal but I couple that with a bottle of PowerAde from the finish area and the ratio nears the 4:1 ratio suggested as the goal by studies.


Oh and for the record, I do not suggest intentionally setting PR's in the half - rather a solid race.

If it is like last year you'll need to find something that doesn't freeze

Back to the original question, I did consistent b2b for 2010 and a just a few the year before. I used a modified Higdon, not quite the miles of the Intermediate but close. My Friday night run would be half my Saturday morning run. So in the end I did a few 10/20 mile runs. Now I take it pretty easy on the 20 mile runs though.

With that being said I would not recommend it for everyone. I don't get injured too much with the exception of a nasty IT band issue while running with Charles in 2009. But to reiterate what others said, maybe do a smaller one or something just to get used to running on tired legs. If you are running the half and just enjoying the full then you would even need less b2b.

In both of my Goofy's we just took it easy on both. Not slow but didn't push real hard either.

I'm not running it this year but do miss it already and it is still 4 months away!

enjoy the race!
Duane

 

[budpaulsaint]

...
If you are running the half and just enjoying the full then you would even need less b2b.
...
Duane

See, there's a concept I'm not certain I understand just yet - "enjoying the full" marathon. Don't get me wrong, I really do enjoy running; I don't think I'm one of those people who runs but doesn't like it. Yeah, sometimes you don't really feel like rolling out of bed at 6am for a long run in order to beat the heat, but doesn't everyone get a little draggy sometimes?
My main point is, yes, I expect to do well in the half - not really super-hard pushing but I'd like to finish at around two hours, and then I'll do everything I can to optimize my recovery for the full, but if it "ain't happening" (you know, those runs where it just feels like a struggle the whole time and you can't find your groove) that Sunday, then I'm just not sure how to "enjoy" it at that point. I suppose that's part of the challenge - to mentally and emotionally push yourself where your body may be hesitant to go.
DAMN I fired up for this bad boy!!!

 

[Bephus]

Budpaulsaint - I am planning on "enjoying" the marathon portion of the goofy by taking tons of pictures, soaking in the atmosphere and finishing upright. I like to see marathons as a reward for all my training, that puts me in a fun frame of mind. Plus I am going to dress up, who can run 26.2 miles dressed as Minnie mouse and not have fun. Lol.

 

[FFigawi]

My main point is, yes, I expect to do well in the half - not really super-hard pushing but I'd like to finish at around two hours, and then I'll do everything I can to optimize my recovery for the full, but if it "ain't happening" (you know, those runs where it just feels like a struggle the whole time and you can't find your groove) that Sunday, then I'm just not sure how to "enjoy" it at that point. I suppose that's part of the challenge - to mentally and emotionally push yourself where your body may be hesitant to go.
DAMN I fired up for this bad boy!!!

I think the best way to enjoy the full on Sunday is to take it easy during the half on Saturday. To mean, that means not coming close to a PR or even any sort of pushing it. Treat it as a normal long training run, go slow, and you'll have plenty in reserve for Sunday. I ran mine 20-25 minutes slower than my typical half, and my legs were fresh and I felt great all day on Sunday and really did enjoy the race.

 

[tiberius]

Budpaulsaint - I am planning on "enjoying" the marathon portion of the goofy by taking tons of pictures, soaking in the atmosphere and finishing upright.

I would add, if you get the opportunity to duck into a ride (such as Expedition Everest) then take it.

 

[cewait]

I would add, if you get the opportunity to duck into a ride (such as Expedition Everest) then take it.

There must have been a line of marathoners at Everest this year. I know of 7-8 folks who road the ride during the event