So....trail running

I also think it depends on the type of trails your race is on.

Where i am at the trail running is like the normal hiking paths. Meaning single tracking, roots, rocks, elevation and scrambling. If your course is something like that then you need to get out on the trails. That being said when i did my 50k, i only could run trails on Saturday. Road running or gravel running during the week (we had some gravel level routes near me but to me that did not prepare me for the trail race). I also hiked the hard portions of the 50k before i ran it. During the race, i walked all those hard sections.

I did my trail races when i was doing more hiking and prior to my current knee issues. I said i prefer to hike trails and run on roads. Now with my knee i do not think i would run trails. While it is softer the risk of falling it to high for me.
Agree with this - you need actual time on the sort of trails you will be running. Good for training and also really good for confidence.

But as this says and @camaker said, it also depends on how "serious" you are with it. You will improve more at trail running the more you run trails, but if you're realistic and realize that you can't and set more realistic goals, then you're ok.

There are always extremes: Floridians who have no hills who manage to train well enough to compete in the Rockies. Who was the famous elite runner who spent their whole training time on a treadmill because of family issues, and then did some marathon record? So exceptions can happen, but you try to train to improve on what you're missing out.
 
I just looked at the 50k up the hill behind our house: Mountain is only 3800ft but the 50k finds 7k vertical....

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/45966527

I'm thinking about the half, but we're also going to summit with the scouts around then, with packs, so I'm noncommittal as of yet
Now, 7000 ft vert in a 50k is something I don't know that I will ever be tackling. LOL Even for the pros, a lot of power hiking involved there.
 
Now, 7000 ft vert in a 50k is something I don't know that I will ever be tackling. LOL Even for the pros, a lot of power hiking involved there.
this is why I'm glad we have a flat trail and the Big hill... for hiking with scouts, I'm all over the big hill but for my running... flat trail :)

I've never done more than 4600vf, even hiking so 7k would be quite the ask.
 
For perspective: https://www.hannahwalsh.co.uk/blog/9-ultra-marathons-with-the-most-elevation-gain
Summary:
  • Hardrock: 100.5 mi with 33,000 ft elevation gain
  • UTMB (Europe): 106 mi, 33,000 ft elevation gain
  • Ultra X Mexico: 155 mi, 39,000 ft elevation gain
  • Montaine Dragon's Back Race (Wales): 236 mi, 57,000 ft elevation gain
  • Tor des Geants (Italy): 205 mi, 79,000 ft elevation gain
  • The Costal Challenge (Costa Rica); 147 mi, 30,000 ft elevation gain
Obviously these are really long, too, but if you break down the elevation gain per mile, they are still pretty crazy.
 
For perspective: https://www.hannahwalsh.co.uk/blog/9-ultra-marathons-with-the-most-elevation-gain
Summary:
  • Hardrock: 100.5 mi with 33,000 ft elevation gain
  • UTMB (Europe): 106 mi, 33,000 ft elevation gain
  • Ultra X Mexico: 155 mi, 39,000 ft elevation gain
  • Montaine Dragon's Back Race (Wales): 236 mi, 57,000 ft elevation gain
  • Tor des Geants (Italy): 205 mi, 79,000 ft elevation gain
  • The Costal Challenge (Costa Rica); 147 mi, 30,000 ft elevation gain
Obviously these are really long, too, but if you break down the elevation gain per mile, they are still pretty crazy.
That's straight up mountain climbing!
 
For perspective: https://www.hannahwalsh.co.uk/blog/9-ultra-marathons-with-the-most-elevation-gain
Summary:
  • Hardrock: 100.5 mi with 33,000 ft elevation gain
  • UTMB (Europe): 106 mi, 33,000 ft elevation gain
  • Ultra X Mexico: 155 mi, 39,000 ft elevation gain
  • Montaine Dragon's Back Race (Wales): 236 mi, 57,000 ft elevation gain
  • Tor des Geants (Italy): 205 mi, 79,000 ft elevation gain
  • The Costal Challenge (Costa Rica); 147 mi, 30,000 ft elevation gain
Obviously these are really long, too, but if you break down the elevation gain per mile, they are still pretty crazy.
Jeff Pelletier has films for UTMB, Tor des Geants, and fastpacking the Hardrock course. They are GORGEOUS, but look so hard. 🤣
 
Hardrock: 100.5 mi with 33,000 ft elevation gain

That's straight up mountain climbing!

I watched a lot of the Hard Rock livestream this past year since Coach Chris Twiggs was running it and it is wild. I mean, I knew that what he did was crazy, but seeing it live made me realize that it was next level crazy. There was one area where the runners were literally sliding down on their butts, going one at a time so they didn't knock rocks down onto the runners beneath them.
 

This could probably go in my training journal, but this is a more common place for people to look/lurk around. Let's have a discussion about this plan! (Sorry for the bold and the double spacing. It won't let me change it.

train for your first 50k training plan


I'm not shrinking that in hopes that it's readable. I'm considering this training plan (it's a "first-timers" 50k trail plan by David Roche, that he wrote for TrailRunnerMag. And honestly, from all of the digging around on the internet that I've done, this seems like one of the most "reasonable" plans to start with. Higdon's 50k plan, as a comparison starts off with mileage-based days, and switches to "hours" based days. It would have be running 26mi in the first week, and 50mi at week 15 (or 26 weeks.) And then it switches to hours and with my paces, it would then drop sharply back down and rebuild to approximately 50mi again on peak week. (And can I just say that Higdon's beginner plans are boringAF? It's all easy pace or goal pace for the entirety of the plan.) Still, as a member of team not-so-fast, and DopeyBadger training plans, I have reservations.

Those reservations are:
-Holy **** those are some long longruns and back-to-backs. My longest long runs for Dopey/marathons capped out at 13.1mi. And while I know that this is a longer distance AND trails, teen-mileage (3-6 hours) on a Saturday followed by a 90min-ish run on Sunday is......a lot. For the whole summer. Every freaking weekend. This is literally the biggest part to try to wrap my brain around. Like....if we go camping for a weekend, I'm gonna get up on Saturday morning and be like "bye babe! See you just before lunchtime, where I'll be useless for the rest of the day, and tomorrow when we get home and unhook the camper I'm gonna peace out for another 2 hours!" DH is supportive, but I don't know if he's that supportive.

-It's only 16 weeks? I would definitely have to do a supplemental plan before this started.

-How much elevation would I need to build in with routes to go with the "hill strides" to be getting *enough* elevation

-I would have to tweak the final week by 1 day for the race. I don't feel like this is a big deal because my only goal is finishing.

-I can definitely foresee myself having a hard time sticking with the plan well, but I have no idea if cutting anything back would make sense.

The things I *think* I'll like based on reading it:
-There's some variety. It's not ___miles easy every single day.

-There are 2 rest days per week.

-It peaks at 45mi. That's a lot, but probably necessary.

-I could possibly fit in a 9 week "speed training" block before I started this plan (assuming all of my referee aches go away by the end of the month)

-The first 2 weeks don't scare me. I could do those right now and be fine (without my current aches.)

This could probably go in my training journal, but this is a more common place for people to look/lurk around. Let's have a discussion about this plan!
 
I know nothing about trail running so cannot comment to if this is a good trail plan. However, I do have thoughts about a few of your reservations.
1. The long runs and back to backs are not surprising to me. They are pretty similar to a lot of marathon plans from a mileage perspective. I was regularly running 8/9 miles (90 minutes) on Saturday followed by 15/16 miles (150 minutes) on Sunday this fall. I've never run 20 in training but lots of plans suggest it, especially once you get into the ultra distance. It's very common for ultra runners to spend most of their weekends running. If this is already concerning you, it may be time to pause this goal until you have the time to devote to it.

2. Similarly, lots of training plans are in the 16 week range. The thought is that your body will start to plateau and it's easy to get mentally burnt out for anything longer. That doesn't mean you start from scratch on week 1. Like you suggested, find a second plan to bridge the gap. Preferably something with a different focus, it could be speed but it could also be base building.

3. Running uphill sucks but I've never ran up hill too much. Conversely, I'm not likely to drive to the biggest baddest hill. I want something that I can reach from my doorstep. Unless there's more information with the plan about how to select your hill, find whatever hill is easily accessible for you and use that. Running up any hill will be better than no hills.
 
I'll throw out an alternate perspective here based on my experiences. You'll see as wide a variety of plans and philosophies for ultra training as you do for marathon training. There's likely no more magic or "truth" in one over another as there is in the widely held mantra that you have to run at least a 20 miler in marathon training to run a marathon successfully. You need to look at the options and find what works for you.

My experience has been that a 50k really doesn't need any more training than a marathon if you're not planning to race it flat out for speed. I've run 10 ultras at this point, with 5 of them being 100k+. All of them have been run using my @DopeyBadger plan which caps the long run at 16 miles. I have modified the plan to shift towards longer back to backs on the weekends by shifting weekday mileage over and keeping the weekly mileage the same. I generally max a weekend at 10/16. Also, I only make those modifications for races that are 50 miles or more. For a 50k, I just use the plan as written.

I'm not saying that my approach will 100% work for everyone, just that it has for me. Don't get intimidated by plans that feature very long mileage, though. They were likely developed for much faster runners who need the extra mileage to hit "time on feet" goals. Find a plan that feels right for you and your lifestyle (which I know is hectic) and roll with it.
 
I know nothing about trail running so cannot comment to if this is a good trail plan. However, I do have thoughts about a few of your reservations.
1. The long runs and back to backs are not surprising to me. They are pretty similar to a lot of marathon plans from a mileage perspective. I was regularly running 8/9 miles (90 minutes) on Saturday followed by 15/16 miles (150 minutes) on Sunday this fall. I've never run 20 in training but lots of plans suggest it, especially once you get into the ultra distance. It's very common for ultra runners to spend most of their weekends running. If this is already concerning you, it may be time to pause this goal until you have the time to devote to it.
yep. i think they allow deferrals, and even if they don't, registration was "only" like $101 (and I might be able to downgrade to the HM if I needed to.) But also, the mileage always concerns me. Every time.

2. Similarly, lots of training plans are in the 16 week range. The thought is that your body will start to plateau and it's easy to get mentally burnt out for anything longer. That doesn't mean you start from scratch on week 1. Like you suggested, find a second plan to bridge the gap. Preferably something with a different focus, it could be speed but it could also be base building.
yes. I'm considering a speed-focused plan (even though I'd have to do most of it on the tread still because winter is very wintery this year.

3. Running uphill sucks but I've never ran up hill too much. Conversely, I'm not likely to drive to the biggest baddest hill. I want something that I can reach from my doorstep. Unless there's more information with the plan about how to select your hill, find whatever hill is easily accessible for you and use that. Running up any hill will be better than no hills.
I have a hill with 100ft of gain in 0.2mi just down the road from me. And it sucks so much. But I know it's good for me.
I'll throw out an alternate perspective here based on my experiences. You'll see as wide a variety of plans and philosophies for ultra training as you do for marathon training. There's likely no more magic or "truth" in one over another as there is in the widely held mantra that you have to run at least a 20 miler in marathon training to run a marathon successfully. You need to look at the options and find what works for you.

My experience has been that a 50k really doesn't need any more training than a marathon if you're not planning to race it flat out for speed. I've run 10 ultras at this point, with 5 of them being 100k+. All of them have been run using my @DopeyBadger plan which caps the long run at 16 miles. I have modified the plan to shift towards longer back to backs on the weekends by shifting weekday mileage over and keeping the weekly mileage the same. I generally max a weekend at 10/16. Also, I only make those modifications for races that are 50 miles or more. For a 50k, I just use the plan as written.

I'm not saying that my approach will 100% work for everyone, just that it has for me. Don't get intimidated by plans that feature very long mileage, though. They were likely developed for much faster runners who need the extra mileage to hit "time on feet" goals. Find a plan that feels right for you and your lifestyle (which I know is hectic) and roll with it.
Right. I mean, I just completed Dopey with nearly no running outside of refereeing for the 2 months leading up to it. It's not a "can I" from a physical perspective for this, it's more of a "can I fast enough to make the cut off." And I haven't really done a "serious" training plan (where I was really good about sticking to it) in a couple of years, and there's always the option to pull out and recycle one of my DB marathon plans and just use that.
 
Right. I mean, I just completed Dopey with nearly no running outside of refereeing for the 2 months leading up to it. It's not a "can I" from a physical perspective for this, it's more of a "can I fast enough to make the cut off." And I haven't really done a "serious" training plan (where I was really good about sticking to it) in a couple of years, and there's always the option to pull out and recycle one of my DB marathon plans and just use that.
I may have missed this but what’s the cutoff pace? Going through your training plan, it’s not too dissimilar from the marathon training plan I followed for Dopey this year and I’d think you could make adjustments if your goal is primarily to finish. Then again, I haven’t done a trail race before. I’m thinking of doing my first the same weekend as you but it would only be 10k.
 
I may have missed this but what’s the cutoff pace? Going through your training plan, it’s not too dissimilar from the marathon training plan I followed for Dopey this year and I’d think you could make adjustments if your goal is primarily to finish. Then again, I haven’t done a trail race before. I’m thinking of doing my first the same weekend as you but it would only be 10k.
the cut off is 9 hours, which comes out to like a 17:25 pace. But it also has a *published* elevation gain of 4,825ft (some digging around has me thinking it may actually be a little under 4k, but there's a big climb at around mile 27 or 28.) By comparison, I finished the MW marathon in January in like 7:10 with some goofing off/character stops and it's very flat and paved. ;)
 
I'm not shrinking that in hopes that it's readable. I'm considering this training plan (it's a "first-timers" 50k trail plan by David Roche, that he wrote for TrailRunnerMag. And honestly, from all of the digging around on the internet that I've done, this seems like one of the most "reasonable" plans to start with. Higdon's 50k plan, as a comparison starts off with mileage-based days, and switches to "hours" based days. It would have be running 26mi in the first week, and 50mi at week 15 (or 26 weeks.) And then it switches to hours and with my paces, it would then drop sharply back down and rebuild to approximately 50mi again on peak week. (And can I just say that Higdon's beginner plans are boringAF? It's all easy pace or goal pace for the entirety of the plan.) Still, as a member of team not-so-fast, and DopeyBadger training plans, I have reservations.
It's an ok plan. Pretty standard, as you said.

I really, really don't like trail running plans that are based on mileage, i.e., "run 5 miles today", "run 10 miles today", etc. Depending on the trail you run for the day, your pace may vary widely, so 5 miles on one trail will be a lot longer time-wise than 5 miles on a different trail. Weather conditions (T+D, and things like muddy trails versus dry trails) also factor into this more than they do for road running.

So....if you have a couple different trails to chose from, you might say, "Wow, 10 miles is a lot, so let's go with the 'easy' trail today." and then you end up doing your long efforts on a surface that isn't helping you as much with your training.

I would personally pick an average pace (maybe 13:00 min/mi) and translate the distances into times and run for that. So, a day of "run 5 miles" turns into "run 75 minutes". What I mean is, take the whole plan, and do a conversion from mileage to time, and then toss the original plan and only look at the "run by time" plan. I don't mean to do it day-by-day. Depending on your trail, doing "run 75 minutes" may be more or less than the 5 miles the original plan had. But you're getting the right amount of effort in.

Then when you choose your trails (if you have a choice) for training, make sure you're mostly choosing ones as similar to the race as you can...if your race is hilly, get some hills. If your race has a lot of roots or rocks, try to run on that. And don't sweat it if your mileage is not as much as the original plan prescribes. Definitely do not always choose the easy, flat trail, because you'll regret it in the race.

The other big benefit of training by time is you actually KNOW HOW LONG it will take you to do the training that day. Very important for planning the rest of your life!

But...you do need to make sure you're running enough on this. I have read a few books on trail and ultrarunning, and those that talk about running "for time" rather than "for distance" have a guideline of your longest run being about 75% of the time you estimate it will take you to finish the race. So for my first 50k, I was estimating it would take me 8 hours, so my longest run was 6 hours.

A note on this....if you follow @DopeyBadger 's training plans, which I think are very, very good for road running, you'll note that something like 6 hours is a lot longer than the 2.5 hours he generally recommends for a long run. But there are some differences here. You should generally be running at a lower effort level (not "LR" effort but still "easy" effort) and trail running naturally has a lot of changes in pace, usually with the hills, including some walking, which makes this better. It's more like run/walk/run training.

Along the same vein, usually road running and non-ultra plans say "don't let your long run be more than X percentage of your weekly mileage", but again for ultras, the reality of how much time mere mortals have to put into training comes into play. You can do a bigger fraction of your weekly running in your long run IF you scale down the effort on the long run. So keep the long runs easy effort.


-Holy **** those are some long longruns and back-to-backs. My longest long runs for Dopey/marathons capped out at 13.1mi. And while I know that this is a longer distance AND trails, teen-mileage (3-6 hours) on a Saturday followed by a 90min-ish run on Sunday is......a lot. For the whole summer. Every freaking weekend. This is literally the biggest part to try to wrap my brain around. Like....if we go camping for a weekend, I'm gonna get up on Saturday morning and be like "bye babe! See you just before lunchtime, where I'll be useless for the rest of the day, and tomorrow when we get home and unhook the camper I'm gonna peace out for another 2 hours!" DH is supportive, but I don't know if he's that supportive.

Yes, yes, yes...you need back-to-back runs. 50k is long. Your legs will be tired. So you need to practice for it. Most trail/ultra books strongly recommend this.

I prefer to do my medium-long run on Saturdays and my long runs on Sundays. I will cap my Saturday run at 90 minutes, and then my long run goes up to the time length I described above.

Again, @DopeyBadger also recommends something like this for marathon training, if you would like extra support for this reasoning.

-It's only 16 weeks? I would definitely have to do a supplemental plan before this started.

Most people can't/won't commit to something longer, so this is pretty standard - plus, something longer means you have to be thinking WAY ahead. For my first 50k, I wrote myself a 23-week plan. That may be a BIT long for folks, but it let me really ramp up the long runs gradually with lots of cut-back weeks. I think it would be a great idea to do something like 4 weeks of base building before this plan. (Actually, somewhere in the fine print they probably said something like "assuming you have a good base" and not that you're starting after a break or something.)

-How much elevation would I need to build in with routes to go with the "hill strides" to be getting *enough* elevation

Usually the recommendation is to think about your elevation more on a weekly basis. The rule of thumb is that your peak week of training should add up to at least as much elevation gain as you'll be getting in your race. So 4800 ft elevation gain in your race means at least 4800 ft of elevation gain in your peak week.

That's sort of a minimum to be well-prepared. Unless you're running an unusually flat race, you really can't get too much elevation gain in training. Most people (except like @Professor_Cookie) are limited by access to a lot of hills to conveniently get a lot of elevation without going insane from going up and down the same hill over and over.

Regarding the hill strides: I am having trouble reading the small font in the table, so I'm not sure I see these. Do you mean the 4 x 30 sec uphills? In 30 sec, you're not going to get much elevation gain no matter what - not anything that will really add up. Just do these on a challenging hill.

The real elevation gain comes on ALL your training runs. Don't avoid hills. Run them as part of your easy runs every day if you can. This will help you learn how to run easy uphills without burning yourself out by going too hard and also learn how to judge which hills you should walk.

-I would have to tweak the final week by 1 day for the race. I don't feel like this is a big deal because my only goal is finishing.
The last week of a plan is really not very important. You won't make any gains in that week. The idea is just to keep your legs fresh but not to wear yourself out. It's probably more important to just make sure you get a lot of sleep, especially before an ultra.
I can definitely foresee myself having a hard time sticking with the plan well, but I have no idea if cutting anything back would make sense.
I wouldn't really suggest cutting anything. If you find you can't consistently do the 5 days per week of running, then maybe think about how to swap some running for useful cross-training that you can do consistently. But all the days of running are to make sure you build up your muscles and skeleton for the pounding and fatigue you will eventually get to.

I would recommend taking the 2 days/week of rest and if you do any cross-training, make it easy.
The things I *think* I'll like based on reading it:
-There's some variety. It's not ___miles easy every single day.

-There are 2 rest days per week.

-It peaks at 45mi. That's a lot, but probably necessary.

-I could possibly fit in a 9 week "speed training" block before I started this plan (assuming all of my referee aches go away by the end of the month)

-The first 2 weeks don't scare me. I could do those right now and be fine (without my current aches.)
My only comment here would be that that 45 mi/wk in the peak week, I would prefer to see it in total training time, but as I said above, that's my preferred training philosophy.

I hope this is all helpful!
 












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