So....trail running

It looks like last year my age group had 7 women, and 112 total racers. The "only" 2 races on Sunday are the 50k and the HM, and they start the HM about 2 hours after the 50k.

it's a 50k. They offer a HM, a M, a 50mi, and the 50k. And it's offered on 2 days (Saturday and Sunday) so they can do "back to back" challenge-type things (50mi on Saturday and 50k on Sunday sort of nonsense)

This is my concern.

I've dug through quite a bit of stuff, and it's mountain bike trail and possibly some access roads. So a lot of singletrack I think? Assuming a normal start, I'd likely start in the back as to not be an impediment to those who are going to finish hours before me.
Ooo, a 50k with a 9-hr time limit as your first trail race? (first-ish?) I probably wouldn't recommend that. I'd suggest the HM to get your feet wet, so to speak (and maybe literally, depending on conditions). Bonus is that you probably won't have to start crazy early.

Sounds like singletrack, if it's a lot of mountain bike trails. I love single track, but definitely can be technical and hilly. In a lot of my experience, mountain bike trails are randomly curvy and hilly, pretty much to give "thrills" to the bikers. (I have literally run on a trail that was like S-curves back and forth through a half-pipe of a stream drainage.)

If you can, try to run on those trails for some of your long training runs. You'll have a lot more confidence with some idea of what the terrain is like before the race.
 
Ooo, a 50k with a 9-hr time limit as your first trail race? (first-ish?) I probably wouldn't recommend that.
Too late! :rotfl2: (Could I change it? Probably. Will I? Nope. I'll take the DNF if necessary.) My first ever half was about 3/4 trail, and I run on a lot of gravel/seasonal road and crushed gravel rail trail in the summer already.
I'd suggest the HM to get your feet wet, so to speak (and maybe literally, depending on conditions). Bonus is that you probably won't have to start crazy early.
it's a 6:30am start, so not too crazy early
Sounds like singletrack, if it's a lot of mountain bike trails. I love single track, but definitely can be technical and hilly.
All of my research so far says "roots" but some commentors have even said that they ran in their "normal" running shoes and that it's "not technical."
If you can, try to run on those trails for some of your long training runs. You'll have a lot more confidence with some idea of what the terrain is like before the race.
This is the plan. It's less than an hour away, and if we camp down that way this summer I'll drive over to run there as well.
 
Too late! :rotfl2: (Could I change it? Probably. Will I? Nope. I'll take the DNF if necessary.) My first ever half was about 3/4 trail, and I run on a lot of gravel/seasonal road and crushed gravel rail trail in the summer already.

it's a 6:30am start, so not too crazy early

All of my research so far says "roots" but some commentors have even said that they ran in their "normal" running shoes and that it's "not technical."

This is the plan. It's less than an hour away, and if we camp down that way this summer I'll drive over to run there as well.
Yes, you can probably change it for a minimal fee. I wouldn't want the time pressure - trail races are more about enjoying the experience and not having to worry about pace. But up to you. If it's a loop course, sometimes they'll also let you drop out after a loop and count it as whatever the shorter length was.

Which race is it, if you don't mind saying?
 
Since we're talking about trail running, there is a trail running reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/trailrunning/ It's mostly folks posting photos of their trail runs and some discussion of unusual things that happened during a run. There isn't so much general discussion. Except every other post is people asking for shoe recommendations, LOL.
 
Since we moved to a bit of discussion about trail racing, I was going to mention some differences between road racing and trail racing.

Bathrooms: it's not unusual for trail races to have NO port-a-potties or other bathrooms on the course, even at aid stations. This info is usually publicized, so you know. But if you're trail running, you should get used to having to go behind a bush or log.

Cupless: a lot of trail races are cupless now. What that means is that you are expected to bring your own bottle or hydration reservoir, and when you get to an aid station, you fill up from some larger vessel of fluids.

Aid stations: While the former two points might have seemed like negatives, on the positive side, aid stations for trail races usually have an array of sweet and salty goodies, like pretzels, M&Ms, gummy bears, and so on. The longer the race is, the more substantial and plentiful the food is. If someone stops at an aid station, they don't usually rush through it - they take their time to fill up bottles, etc., gather snacks to go on, chat with the volunteers and so on. I usually carry all of my own liquids and foods, so I generally choose not to stop.

Bling: some trail races don't have medals (or other finishing items) at all. Some have them be optional. Some give you socks or a glass or some other object instead. (Usually there is a shirt option separate from whatever the "bling" is.) If there is a medal, it's generally not very elaborate and blingy. The exception to this is the North Country Trail Run, which prides itself on having the largest medals. Keep in mind that most trail races are a lot cheaper than road races, and the lack of (elaborate) bling is why.

Distances: Trail races generally don't finish at the exact distance. Yes, everyone's used to how GPS doesn't match exactly with routes. That isn't what I mean. The issue is that on trails, you can't always construct a reasonable race route that ends at exactly 26.2 miles or whatever. So they are always off, and usually long. From a few tenths of a mile long to multiple miles long. Usually they'll let you know ahead of time to expect it to be long, but not always.
 
Since we moved to a bit of discussion about trail racing, I was going to mention some differences between road racing and trail racing.

Bathrooms: it's not unusual for trail races to have NO port-a-potties or other bathrooms on the course, even at aid stations. This info is usually publicized, so you know. But if you're trail running, you should get used to having to go behind a bush or log.

Cupless: a lot of trail races are cupless now. What that means is that you are expected to bring your own bottle or hydration reservoir, and when you get to an aid station, you fill up from some larger vessel of fluids.

Aid stations: While the former two points might have seemed like negatives, on the positive side, aid stations for trail races usually have an array of sweet and salty goodies, like pretzels, M&Ms, gummy bears, and so on. The longer the race is, the more substantial and plentiful the food is. If someone stops at an aid station, they don't usually rush through it - they take their time to fill up bottles, etc., gather snacks to go on, chat with the volunteers and so on. I usually carry all of my own liquids and foods, so I generally choose not to stop.

Bling: some trail races don't have medals (or other finishing items) at all. Some have them be optional. Some give you socks or a glass or some other object instead. (Usually there is a shirt option separate from whatever the "bling" is.) If there is a medal, it's generally not very elaborate and blingy. The exception to this is the North Country Trail Run, which prides itself on having the largest medals. Keep in mind that most trail races are a lot cheaper than road races, and the lack of (elaborate) bling is why.

Distances: Trail races generally don't finish at the exact distance. Yes, everyone's used to how GPS doesn't match exactly with routes. That isn't what I mean. The issue is that on trails, you can't always construct a reasonable race route that ends at exactly 26.2 miles or whatever. So they are always off, and usually long. From a few tenths of a mile long to multiple miles long. Usually they'll let you know ahead of time to expect it to be long, but not always.
Yeah, sour gummy worms and potato chips at the aid stations is the bees knees
 
@avondale its the North Country Trail Run
Hah, I just mentioned it because it advertises big medals.

Wow, the 50k has over 4800 ft of elevation gain! How do they do that in Michigan? LOL Have you run this sort of elevation gain before?

At least northern Michigan will not be very technical - not too rocky or rooty. Should be rolling hills. Yeah, the elevation map looks just rolling.

I've always thought about doing one of these trail races, but it's in freaking August...even in Michigan I wouldn't race in August. :D

ETA: I think @michigandergirl has done several of the North Country Trail Runs and really liked them, but I don't remember which distances.
 
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Bathrooms: it's not unusual for trail races to have NO port-a-potties or other bathrooms on the course, even at aid stations. This info is usually publicized, so you know. But if you're trail running, you should get used to having to go behind a bush or log.
Here is where I will recommend my absolute favorite gear find in the last several years -- my pee pants. I have these in the hiking pants, shorts, leggings and biker shorts and THEY WORK! https://gnara.com/collections/gnaraproducts?filter.v.price.gte=&filter.v.price.lte=

The zipper opens just under where the regular front zipper is (or would be, in the case of leggings/biker shorts) and goes ALLLL the way to the back and up almost to the waistband. They are super easy to open and close and the zipper head goes into a little notch so it's not dangling.There is a fabric "flap" that covers everything inside if you go commando, though I don't recommend that for this distance. If you're wearing undies, it's easy to just pull them aside. They sell a reusable/washable wiping cloth (REI carries similar) or you can just carry tissues and sanitizer. I was going to wear the leggings or biker shorts as an under layer at MW but ended up with my period, which complicated things. Won't get into the TMI there.

Get on their mailing list and wait for a sale. They do 20 or 30% off every few months. They do run a bit small and are a bit heavier than regular leggings IME, but that also makes them very durable.
 
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Here is where I will recommend my absolute favorite gear find in the last several years -- my pee pants. I have these in the hiking pants, shorts, leggings and biker shorts and THEY WORK! https://gnara.com/collections/gnaraproducts?filter.v.price.gte=&filter.v.price.lte=

The zipper opens just under where the regular front zipper is (or would be, in the case of leggings/biker shorts) and goes ALLLL the way to the back and up almost to the waistband. They are super easy to open and close and the zipper head goes into a little flap so it's not dangling.There is a fabric "flap" that covers everything if you go commando, though I don't recommend that for this distance. If you're wearing undies, it's easy to just pull them aside. They sell a reusable/washable wiping cloth (REI carries similar) or you can just carry tissues and sanitizer. I was going to wear the leggings or biker shorts as an under layer at MW but ended up with my period, which complicated things. Won't get into the TMI there.

Get on their mailing list and wait for a sale. They do 20 or 30% off every few months. They do run a bit small and are a bit heavier than regular leggings IME, but that also makes them very durable.
Whoa, I might need to try these for the marathon. Would make bathroom stops so much easier!
 
Hah, I just mentioned it because it advertises big medals.

Wow, the 50k has over 4800 ft of elevation gain! How do they do that in Michigan? LOL Have you run this sort of elevation gain before?

At least northern Michigan will not be very technical - not too rocky or rooty. Should be rolling hills. Yeah, the elevation map looks just rolling.

I've always thought about doing one of these trail races, but it's in freaking August...even in Michigan I wouldn't race in August. :D

ETA: I think @michigandergirl has done several of the North Country Trail Runs and really liked them, but I don't remember which distances.
I was laughing when you posted about NCT's medals thinking there's no way she could have seen my post and then commented. Also, digging around on reddit, and previous finisher's stravas (I finally found one!!!), I think the 4800 is inflated. Multiple people (mountain bikers) have said the "loop" is about 3300ft, and I believe that's the marathon distance. So unless they threw in a few really big climbs with the extra 5 miles, I feel like it's going to be less than published. This will be the most elevation I've run, so it's a good thing I have 8 months to train for it!

And hey! Northern Michigan, specifically the west side, isn't all flatland like downstate and the east side where it's all farmland. We not mountains or anything, but we have some good hills. 😉

The avg. temp that time of year is low of 58 and high of 78. That means nice in the morning, and not terrible in the afternoon (especially considering it should be shaded in the woods)
 
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Whoa, I might need to try these for the marathon. Would make bathroom stops so much easier!
Exactly! No more pulling up and down with pockets full of stuff! I will say the pockets in the Gnaras are not going to compare well to your Janjis, but you could always supplement with a belt or bag.
 
Distances: Trail races generally don't finish at the exact distance. Yes, everyone's used to how GPS doesn't match exactly with routes. That isn't what I mean. The issue is that on trails, you can't always construct a reasonable race route that ends at exactly 26.2 miles or whatever. So they are always off, and usually long. From a few tenths of a mile long to multiple miles long. Usually they'll let you know ahead of time to expect it to be long, but not always.

This is a great point and the often lack of precision is not an error but a feature. Although I have run 3 trail marathons on Boston Qualifying courses, many more of my races runs are "ish" distances. For example I ran a trail race run this summer which had a choice of 3 or 4 loops, each described as 4ish miles long.

As mentioned in several different ways upthread, there is a certain vibe of most trail races runs that is a bit counter-culture. Times do not matter as much, distances don't matter as much, and there is more of a comradery between the runners. I like it but in our data driven running world it takes a bit to get used to. For example, you won't set a PR unless you have run the same event before, and even then, the course probably changed a bit due to trail conditions. You will not want to stick to a certain pace or do regular run/walk intervals because the course will dictate your pace and when is a good time to walk and a good time to run.

Edit: in keeping with the spirit of the point I am trying to make I changed the "races" to "runs" which is how many of theses events are described. Think about the differences between a race and a run with friends (who you may not have met) and you will get the picture.
 
The avg. temp that time of year is low of 58 and high of 78. That means nice in the morning, and not terrible in the afternoon (especially considering it should be shaded in the woods)
This is completely a matter of taste. I would much prefer it to never get above 58 F in any race I am running. :) Even though I do run/train all summer, I still never race well at temperatures 70s and above. (Assuming I'm not in the desert with zero humidity, then it might be ok.)
 
I think the 4800 is inflated. Multiple people (mountain bikers) have said the "loop" is about 3300ft, and I believe that's the marathon distance. So unless they threw in a few really big climbs with the extra 5 miles, I feel like it's going to be less than published. This will be the most elevation I've run, so it's a good thing I have 8 months to train for it!
Don't just train running, but also do some power hiking up hills because with your first 50k, you're going to end up walking a lot, and you should aim to have most of that walking uphill. The elevation gain really is a lot more difficult than you might expect (I mean this as an overall concept). My first 50k was a bit over 3000 ft of elevation gain (in over 33.5 mi), and I did a lot of hill training. A general trail racing rule of thumb is that by the time you reach your peak week of training, that week's total elevation gain should be at least as much as you'll get in your race. So, you should try to build up to 3300 ft of elevation gain by your peak week. More doesn't hurt.

I'll be interested to see how it goes and follow your journal. My 50k at the beginning of January 2024 really did a number on my knees, so I did shorter distances the rest of 2024 and lots of PT. I'm currently toward the beginning of my training plan for the Amasa 25k trail race in Utah in April. I plan to try to do more of a 30 or 35k in the fall and then maybe a 50k next spring. USUALLY, training through the winter in my area is great because it's cold (which I like) but not snowy. But not this year, blast it.
 
Hah, I just mentioned it because it advertises big medals.

Wow, the 50k has over 4800 ft of elevation gain! How do they do that in Michigan? LOL Have you run this sort of elevation gain before?

At least northern Michigan will not be very technical - not too rocky or rooty. Should be rolling hills. Yeah, the elevation map looks just rolling.

I've always thought about doing one of these trail races, but it's in freaking August...even in Michigan I wouldn't race in August. :D

ETA: I think @michigandergirl has done several of the North Country Trail Runs and really liked them, but I don't remember which distances.
I just looked at the 50k up the hill behind our house: Mountain is only 3800ft but the 50k finds 7k vertical....

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/45966527

I'm thinking about the half, but we're also going to summit with the scouts around then, with packs, so I'm noncommittal as of yet
 
So (possibly stupid sounding) question: What would you consider a minimum percentage of training to do on trails vs road for preparation? The prospect of a trail race/run sounds like it could be interesting, but the nearest area to me in the suburbs with trails to train on is a solid 30-40 minute drive away.

Is it possible to mix road/trail in some combination and still be ready for a race/run?
 
So (possibly stupid sounding) question: What would you consider a minimum percentage of training to do on trails vs road for preparation? The prospect of a trail race/run sounds like it could be interesting, but the nearest area to me in the suburbs with trails to train on is a solid 30-40 minute drive away.

Is it possible to mix road/trail in some combination and still be ready for a race/run?
I’d say it really depends on your goals for the race. If you want to be competitive I’d recommend doing as much training as possible on similar trails to ensure your techniques are on point come race day. If your goal is just to complete and enjoy the race, I don’t think it’s critical to do any training on trails. I train exclusively on the road, but have run a trail half and three trail 50ks with no issues.
 
So (possibly stupid sounding) question: What would you consider a minimum percentage of training to do on trails vs road for preparation? The prospect of a trail race/run sounds like it could be interesting, but the nearest area to me in the suburbs with trails to train on is a solid 30-40 minute drive away.

Is it possible to mix road/trail in some combination and still be ready for a race/run?
Could you use a nearby school's XC course? Especially in the summer and on non-school days, I can't imagine them having an issue with it (at least, I know my school wouldn't have an issue, but they also know me quite well.)
 
So (possibly stupid sounding) question: What would you consider a minimum percentage of training to do on trails vs road for preparation? The prospect of a trail race/run sounds like it could be interesting, but the nearest area to me in the suburbs with trails to train on is a solid 30-40 minute drive away.

Is it possible to mix road/trail in some combination and still be ready for a race/run?
I also think it depends on the type of trails your race is on.

Where i am at the trail running is like the normal hiking paths. Meaning single tracking, roots, rocks, elevation and scrambling. If your course is something like that then you need to get out on the trails. That being said when i did my 50k, i only could run trails on Saturday. Road running or gravel running during the week (we had some gravel level routes near me but to me that did not prepare me for the trail race). I also hiked the hard portions of the 50k before i ran it. During the race, i walked all those hard sections.

I did my trail races when i was doing more hiking and prior to my current knee issues. I said i prefer to hike trails and run on roads. Now with my knee i do not think i would run trails. While it is softer the risk of falling it to high for me.
 



















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