So no car seats? Really?

[Halbleib1]

There are no car seats allowed on any bus that I know of. That includes school buses, yet we still send our children on those; right? I was just making the point that children are on buses many of an occasion without a carseat. ME is a big coach bus. I still bring carseats on the plane to keep my kinds a bit more secure. My DS2 is a houdini with seatbelts but hasn't mastered his carseat harness yet. I will stowe it under the bus for the ME and then in the closet at the hotel. That way, IF we end up renting a car for a day I have the carseat just in case.

Actually megabus has seatbelts and they reccommend that any child over the age of 2 and under the age of 7 be in a car seat. Oddly enough under the age of two they want them on your lap unless there is an extra seat available.

 

[Halbleib1]

After a very quick check on the internet I came up with the following

http://www.childdeathreview.org/causesMV.htm

"In the U.S. in 1998, 47% of the children under age five that died in motor vehicle crashes were not restrained."

So that means unfortunately that 53% of those who died were restrained.

And this little piece too...


Fatalities per 10 billion passenger miles

Auto 140
Airlines 6
Bus 3
Train 1

(Bureau of transportation statistics, center for transportation analysis)

So buses are 46 times safer than cars and no one even has the option of being restrained in a bus.


And http://www.trb.org/Main/Blurbs/The_Relative_Risks_of_School_Travel_A_National_Per_161028.aspx

When school travel modes are compared, the distribution of injuries and fatalities is found to be quite different from that of trips and miles traveled. Three modes (school buses, other buses, and passenger vehicles with adult drivers) have injury estimates and fatality counts below those expected on the basis of the exposure to risk implied by the number of trips taken or student-miles traveled.

I suspect the full numbers are in the link somewhere but this suggests to me that there's a whole lot of worry about nothing here and as Luvchefmic says too, there's risk when you have to take a tram or a boat... (Do people insist their kids wear life vests on the ferries???)

Most death's involving children in car seat's is because the seat was not properly installed or should not have been being used in the first place because of it's age etc. Many death's involving children in seatbelt's is usually because the child should have been in a booster seat. This is the reason that PA now requires all children under 7 to be in a booster seat. Too many kid's were getting seriously hurt or killed in accident's that had they of been in a booster seat would have been fine or only minorly injured.

That being said I do not worry for my son's safety on the ME bus or airplane. On the airplane we make sure the lap belt is on tightly. And let's face it if that plane goes down it is not likely going to matter if they are in a car seat or not. As for the ME bus the reason they are not required to be restrained there is because the seat in front of you is designed to stop you from being thrown forward. The same for school buses. Granted it is not going to help if the bus rolls but overall it is pretty safe.

Now the park buses are what you need to be concerned with as my son was thrown from his seat once. Luckily he was not hurt. Since that happened we have always kept an arm around him. For that reason we try not to stand and will wait for another bus to come along. If that is not possible I have him sit down on the floor rather than stand. Obviously it would not work to have seatbelts on these buses. The same with city buses.

 

[Halbleib1]

these are not special need buses. these are regular school buses

The state of PA has talked about making seatbelts mandatory in all school buses. Some states have made them mandatory already. So yes some reg. school buses do have seatbelts. It all depends on the state laws where you live.

 

[Halbleib1]

I totally agree. It's just too much and for what? Why worry about it. Think about all the kids who take Mass transportation in big cities. They survive just fine.

Think of all the kids that grew up before car seats were required in cars. Were there accidents? Yes but you can not live in a bubble. You can not protect yourself and your kid's from every little thing in life. Sadly accident's happen it is a part of life. If the govt. felt it was needed they would mandate car seats on buses, trains, and planes. And they would simply not allow lap babies at all. They do not for a very important reason. The chance of something happening is very very slim. If babies were harmed from being on your lap the airlines would quickly change that policy on their own. Esp. in this day and age when companies are worried about being sued.

They do mandate them for car's because they have found them to be effective and the chance's of something happening in a car is very high compared to other modes of transportation.

 

[r&kmommy]

After a very quick check on the internet I came up with the following

http://www.childdeathreview.org/causesMV.htm

"In the U.S. in 1998, 47% of the children under age five that died in motor vehicle crashes were not restrained."

So that means unfortunately that 53% of those who died were restrained.

And this little piece too...


Fatalities per 10 billion passenger miles

Auto 140
Airlines 6
Bus 3
Train 1

(Bureau of transportation statistics, center for transportation analysis)

So buses are 46 times safer than cars and no one even has the option of being restrained in a bus.


And http://www.trb.org/Main/Blurbs/The_Relative_Risks_of_School_Travel_A_National_Per_161028.aspx

When school travel modes are compared, the distribution of injuries and fatalities is found to be quite different from that of trips and miles traveled. Three modes (school buses, other buses, and passenger vehicles with adult drivers) have injury estimates and fatality counts below those expected on the basis of the exposure to risk implied by the number of trips taken or student-miles traveled.

I suspect the full numbers are in the link somewhere but this suggests to me that there's a whole lot of worry about nothing here and as Luvchefmic says too, there's risk when you have to take a tram or a boat... (Do people insist their kids wear life vests on the ferries???)

While ITA with your general point of view, I have to say that there is a major FLAW in those statistics -- those are just fatalities... No mention of serious (or even minor) injuries. A child whose spinal column is not fully fused (around age 6ish, I believe) is at serious risk for internal decapitation... not pleasant and will kill the child. But they can also seriously tear/sever the spine, causing various forms of paralysis/mental disabilities... Not to mention broken bones, internal organ/tissue injuries etc... I can't think of anyone who would say "phew, my child wasn't killed. I'm glad I didn't waste money on a ticket/waste my time taking his/her car seat..." you know? Sure you'd be grateful your child wasn't killed, but a serious injury, in some ways, can be even worse than death -- that could have been prevented.

BUT, like I said, I agree with your general point of view and say:

Busses (in any form - Disney, School, Mears, ME) are safe, in my car-seat-technician-educated mind, for children to ride in their own seat or as a lap child. Cars (in any form - taxi, limo, SUV, sedan, van, sports car) are not safe for children to ride without an appropriate for their size/age/maturity car seat/booster seat. I have now changed my opinion of airplane safety - I've flown tens of thousands of miles and have (thankfully) never once encountered any turbulence that made me think "I wish I had a seat for my kid" ... so when my kids were under 2 they were lap children. After hearing about that turbulence incident the other day, I will never NOT buy my kid a ticket and use his/her car seat.

Just my $.02... not that anyone asked for it

 

[Bren's Mom]

If the govt. felt it was needed they would mandate car seats on buses, trains, and planes. And they would simply not allow lap babies at all. They do not for a very important reason. The chance of something happening is very very slim. If babies were harmed from being on your lap the airlines would quickly change that policy on their own. Esp. in this day and age when companies are worried about being sued.

This isn't accurate.

One of the biggest reasons for the FAA not requiring purchased seats for children under 2 is that if they did, passengers might choose to drive instead. Since flying is statistically safer than driving, this would put children more at risk. So they strongly recommend seats for children under 2, but don't make it compulsory.

Same goes for car seats. In CT, for example, children must remain rear-facing until at least 1 year and 20lbs. But it's a known fact that children are safer staying rear-facing much longer, that is the recommendation and has been for quite some time. The state government has not, as yet, upped that minimum.

Also, states ARE moving toward seat belts in buses. But as finances are tight in many states/municipalities, if the state isn't wiling or able to pay for it than any law is an unfunded mandate. What CT has done is sign a bill that offers financial incentives for municipalities to put seat belts in buses.

http://articles.courant.com/2010-07...hool-buses-seat-belts-pratik-and-dolly-parikh

The NHTSA has said that buses are safe for children, but they ALSO say that those under 5 or 40lbs should be in a restraint on the bus. Compartmentalization, what makes school buses safer, doesn't work as well for younger, pre-school age children.

 

[wmharley]

After a very quick check on the internet I came up with the following

http://www.childdeathreview.org/causesMV.htm

"In the U.S. in 1998, 47% of the children under age five that died in motor vehicle crashes were not restrained."

So that means unfortunately that 53% of those who died were restrained.

And this little piece too...


Fatalities per 10 billion passenger miles

Auto 140
Airlines 6
Bus 3
Train 1

(Bureau of transportation statistics, center for transportation analysis)

So buses are 46 times safer than cars and no one even has the option of being restrained in a bus.


And http://www.trb.org/Main/Blurbs/The_Relative_Risks_of_School_Travel_A_National_Per_161028.aspx

When school travel modes are compared, the distribution of injuries and fatalities is found to be quite different from that of trips and miles traveled. Three modes (school buses, other buses, and passenger vehicles with adult drivers) have injury estimates and fatality counts below those expected on the basis of the exposure to risk implied by the number of trips taken or student-miles traveled.

I suspect the full numbers are in the link somewhere but this suggests to me that there's a whole lot of worry about nothing here and as Luvchefmic says too, there's risk when you have to take a tram or a boat... (Do people insist their kids wear life vests on the ferries???)

So if your kids get on a bus and get in an accident.. Are you to have felt better because the bus is "safer" than a car?

All it takes is once... i'm sure all the parents and family members of bus crash victims wish the outcomes were different.

 

[tigger51276]

So if your kids get on a bus and get in an accident.. Are you to have felt better because the bus is "safer" than a car?

All it takes is once... i'm sure all the parents and family members of bus crash victims wish the outcomes were different.

What about kids who died while strapped into their carseat? Do you really think the parents feel any better about the fact that their child is dead simply because they had their child strapped in??? I'm pretty sure that regardless of whether I had my child in a restraint system or not if my child were killed in and accident I would be inconsolable regardless of how or why it happened.

We can try to put a protective bubble around our children as much as we want, but an accident can occur anywhere regardless of how careful you are. If you want to use a car seat on a plane, do so. If you want to use a car seat on a bus then find one that will let you. It's your choice. Many people choose to travel on buses and planes without a car seat and their kids turn out just fine, the same as those kids who are sitting in their car seats. It's personal preference, you aren't right because you choose to use, just like you aren't wrong if you don't. But that is my opinion.

 

[r&kmommy]

We can try to put a protective bubble around our children as much as we want, but an accident can occur anywhere regardless of how careful you are. If you want to use a car seat on a plane, do so. If you want to use a car seat on a bus then find one that will let you. It's your choice. Many people choose to travel on buses and planes without a car seat and their kids turn out just fine, the same as those kids who are sitting in their car seats. It's personal preference, you aren't right because you choose to use, just like you aren't wrong if you don't. But that is my opinion.

You may not be legally wrong... I can't figure out the right word to call it though. Parentally wrong? As parents we are our children's advocates. We need to do what is safest for our kids. And it's a FACT that kids are better off strapped into their car seats in the event of bad turbulence on the plane. It's a FACT that kids are safer rear facing in the car as long as possible. If I didn't do everything possible to keep my kids as safe as possible then I'm "wrong", in some way. Again, I can't put my finger on the right word LOL - it's not legally and it's not really morally wrong either... but it's wrong nonetheless.

Say, for example (and god forbid) you take your 18 mos old child on a plane, and she sits in your lap. There is terrible turbulence, such that happened the other day, and she flies out of your arms, whacks someone in the face and bashes into things. . . you wouldn't feel like you were wrong and think to yourself "crap, if only I'd bought her a ticket and put her in her car seat she'd be ok" ...

I'm NOT saying anyone who doesn't get a ticket for their kid is a bad parent, hell I didn't buy my kids tickets when they were under 2. But that's because despite all my flying I had never encountered any turbulence as bad as what happened the other day... BUT knowing what I know now, I can not in good conscience go on a flight and NOT get a ticket for my kid under 2. It would be "wrong".

 

[tigger51276]

You may not be legally wrong... I can't figure out the right word to call it though. Parentally wrong? As parents we are our children's advocates. We need to do what is safest for our kids. And it's a FACT that kids are better off strapped into their car seats in the event of bad turbulence on the plane. It's a FACT that kids are safer rear facing in the car as long as possible. If I didn't do everything possible to keep my kids as safe as possible then I'm "wrong", in some way. Again, I can't put my finger on the right word LOL - it's not legally and it's not really morally wrong either... but it's wrong nonetheless.

Say, for example (and god forbid) you take your 18 mos old child on a plane, and she sits in your lap. There is terrible turbulence, such that happened the other day, and she flies out of your arms, whacks someone in the face and bashes into things. . . you wouldn't feel like you were wrong and think to yourself "crap, if only I'd bought her a ticket and put her in her car seat she'd be ok" ...

I'm NOT saying anyone who doesn't get a ticket for their kid is a bad parent, hell I didn't buy my kids tickets when they were under 2. But that's because despite all my flying I had never encountered any turbulence as bad as what happened the other day... BUT knowing what I know now, I can not in good conscience go on a flight and NOT get a ticket for my kid under 2. It would be "wrong".

Actually you are saying that those who don't buy a ticket for their child is a bad parent. You mentioned in the bold that those who don't are Parentally Wrong and that nonetheless it's wrong to not buy a ticket.
Those are just your opinion. I will not lie and say that there is always the possiblily of some turbulence but the occurance of such turbulence that just happened is extremely rare. Heck if I was afraid of something happening to my child over a rare occurance or even a more common occurance then I wouldn't ever be able to take my child anywhere out of fear of keeping them safe. I would be a bad parent for taking my child to Disney during hurricane season because a hurricane might happen and then how would I feel? Don't take them during the extreme heat because they could get sun poisining, sun cancer or heat stroke. Don't take them to Disneyland because an earthquake could happen. Don't go to the midwest because we could get stuck in a tornado...etc. These are all extremely rare occurances but they could happen on a vacation so does that mean because I willingly take my child on a vacation where such a thing could happen that it is parentally wrong and I'm not correctly advocating for my children??

 

[TandLMommy28]

I'm a huge car seat advocate. My friends call me the car seat queen. I want to be a tech, I just don't have time for the classes right now. My 5 year old still uses a 5 point harness and we won't even consider a booster for 2 more years. I don't care if it makes me overprotective. You can't control the other cars on the road and I'll do everything in my power to keep my kids safe in the car... But even I will let my kids ride the Disney buses and try not to worry. We are driving down this time (stopping along the way to visit college friends and enjoy the trip) but once we get there, we will park our car and rely on Disney transportation and I'm sure it will be fine... I'm sure I'll be uneasy at times but I mean, there are no car seats on Splash Mountain and I'm sure that's scarier than the bus ride from POFQ to MK and my 5yo has every intention of riding that!

 

[torinsmom]

There are no car seats allowed on any bus that I know of. That includes school buses, yet we still send our children on those; right? I was just making the point that children are on buses many of an occasion without a carseat. ME is a big coach bus. I still bring carseats on the plane to keep my kinds a bit more secure. My DS2 is a houdini with seatbelts but hasn't mastered his carseat harness yet. I will stowe it under the bus for the ME and then in the closet at the hotel. That way, IF we end up renting a car for a day I have the carseat just in case.

The buses that bring our preK's to school have built in carseats with 5 point harnesses. When we take them on field trips, we are also required to buckle them into the seats. These are regular school buses and kids, not special ed buses. I wish they would have the K's buckle as well. They look so little in those big bus seats.

Marsha

 

[r&kmommy]

Actually you are saying that those who don't buy a ticket for their child is a bad parent. You mentioned in the bold that those who don't are Parentally Wrong and that nonetheless it's wrong to not buy a ticket.
Those are just your opinion. I will not lie and say that there is always the possiblily of some turbulence but the occurance of such turbulence that just happened is extremely rare. Heck if I was afraid of something happening to my child over a rare occurance or even a more common occurance then I wouldn't ever be able to take my child anywhere out of fear of keeping them safe. I would be a bad parent for taking my child to Disney during hurricane season because a hurricane might happen and then how would I feel? Don't take them during the extreme heat because they could get sun poisining, sun cancer or heat stroke. Don't take them to Disneyland because an earthquake could happen. Don't go to the midwest because we could get stuck in a tornado...etc. These are all extremely rare occurances but they could happen on a vacation so does that mean because I willingly take my child on a vacation where such a thing could happen that it is parentally wrong and I'm not correctly advocating for my children??

I never said bad parent... I can't think of the right word for it, but I never said bad parent. We all make mistakes and do wrong things when it comes to our kids! So are we all bad parents? Not at all! Bad parents beat their kids, don't feed them healthy stuff, don't send them to school or help them learn etc... You put sunscreen on them to prevent sunburn/skin cancer and adequately hydrate to avoid dehydration. I just feel like getting your kid a seat on the plane and putting the smaller kids into their car seats is the best way to go. The safest way. It's something we CAN control. We can't control the turbulence occurring (or not occurring) but we CAN control how our kids fare if the turbulence does happen.

 

[tigger51276]

I never said bad parent... I can't think of the right word for it, but I never said bad parent. We all make mistakes and do wrong things when it comes to our kids! So are we all bad parents? Not at all! Bad parents beat their kids, don't feed them healthy stuff, don't send them to school or help them learn etc... You put sunscreen on them to prevent sunburn/skin cancer and adequately hydrate to avoid dehydration. I just feel like getting your kid a seat on the plane and putting the smaller kids into their car seats is the best way to go. The safest way. It's something we CAN control. We can't control the turbulence occurring (or not occurring) but we CAN control how our kids fare if the turbulence does happen.

Exactly, YOU feel like getting YOUR kid a seat on the plane and putting them in car seats is the best way to go for you and your family and that is absolutely fine for your family and other families who want to go that route. I think it's wonderful that you want your child to have thier own seat whether it's for your peace of mind or someone just not wanting to have to hold their infant on a long plane ride, nothing at all wrong with that. Someone is not acting Parentally wrong or not advocating appropriately for their child simply because they choose not to buy a seat or use a car seat on an airplane though and that is my issue here. It is the parents choice as to how they want to travel with their child and what they find works best for them. That does not make them anymore or less responsible a parent because they choose to lap child a small one or seat belt a young child who would still be in a car seat in a car.
People are constantly bashing those who don't buy a seat for their child/ren and for not using a car seat on a plane. It is what it is. It is not required for any child under 2 and so far I have not seen an airline demand that a child with a paid seat use a car seat so if that is the route a parent wants to take then I don't understand why people tell them they are irresponsible and not doing what is right for their kid. It is up to the parent to decide what is right and appropriate for their child. My children have always been safe on a plane as they have not been scratched even once and I don't consider that luck, but statistics for planes being a safer way to travel car seat or not. However when my children do fly they are always strapped in at all times in the event of sudden turbulance and on the two occassions when there wasn't an open seat for my under 2 year old and I had to hold her, she sat on my lap and I held her. If we hit any bumps in the air then I held her even more securly. As for the plane that hit all the turbulance, those that got seriously hurt got hurt because they ignored the fasten seat belt sign that the pilot put on, if a parent were to ignore that warning and not fasten the belts on their child or hold their child as securly as they could then that in my mind is acting parentally wrong and irresponsible.

 

[r&kmommy]

Exactly, YOU feel like getting YOUR kid a seat on the plane and putting them in car seats is the best way to go for you and your family and that is absolutely fine for your family and other families who want to go that route. I think it's wonderful that you want your child to have thier own seat whether it's for your peace of mind or someone just not wanting to have to hold their infant on a long plane ride, nothing at all wrong with that. Someone is not acting Parentally wrong or not advocating appropriately for their child simply because they choose not to buy a seat or use a car seat on an airplane though and that is my issue here. It is the parents choice as to how they want to travel with their child and what they find works best for them. That does not make them anymore or less responsible a parent because they choose to lap child a small one or seat belt a young child who would still be in a car seat in a car.
People are constantly bashing those who don't buy a seat for their child/ren and for not using a car seat on a plane. It is what it is. It is not required for any child under 2 and so far I have not seen an airline demand that a child with a paid seat use a car seat so if that is the route a parent wants to take then I don't understand why people tell them they are irresponsible and not doing what is right for their kid. It is up to the parent to decide what is right and appropriate for their child. My children have always been safe on a plane as they have not been scratched even once and I don't consider that luck, but statistics for planes being a safer way to travel car seat or not. However when my children do fly they are always strapped in at all times in the event of sudden turbulance and on the two occassions when there wasn't an open seat for my under 2 year old and I had to hold her, she sat on my lap and I held her. If we hit any bumps in the air then I held her even more securly. As for the plane that hit all the turbulance, those that got seriously hurt got hurt because they ignored the fasten seat belt sign that the pilot put on, if a parent were to ignore that warning and not fasten the belts on their child or hold their child as securly as they could then that in my mind is acting parentally wrong and irresponsible.

We will have to agree to disagree then.

FYI - I never said that I think a child should be in a car seat when in their own seat on the plane... if we didn't rent a car then my dd, now 3.5, would be sitting in the seatbelt of the plane.

(I just want to reiterate that I never once implied, inferred or outright said that anyone is a bad parent for not buying a ticket or using a car seat on the plane for their kid.)

 

[roogard]

On a lighter note, when we brought our 2 year old on the Magical Express, she kept saying over and over, "no car seat?" It was hilarious, I think she said the whole hour we were on the bus, and then again the next day on the Disney transportation bus. After a couple days she stopped asking, but when we got picked up by my mom and she asked her about the trip, one of the first things she said was "no car seats!"

 

[Mouse House Mama]

We will have to agree to disagree then.

FYI - I never said that I think a child should be in a car seat when in their own seat on the plane... if we didn't rent a car then my dd, now 3.5, would be sitting in the seatbelt of the plane.

(I just want to reiterate that I never once implied, inferred or outright said that anyone is a bad parent for not buying a ticket or using a car seat on the plane for their kid.)

Well actually you kind of did. You said that parents who don't do what you feel is safest because you believe it is fact based on your research are parentally wrong because we should all do what is best for our children. While I do think that we as parents should always try and to do what is best for our kids I don't think your argument is very strong. By your theory any parent who doesn't breastfeed is parentally wrong because fact is breastmilk is considered the best by the AAP. Any parent who gives cereal before a certain age is not parentally correct because doctors have said that they should only have it at X months. Any parent who lets their kid have candy is not doing what is best because candy has sugar in it and they could get a cavity. - These are just random examples. I am not starting a debate about any of these topics-
See what I mean? I don't travel with carseats on a plane. That is a choice we have made after we have done our research. We are not parentally wrong. We have simply made an informed decision. We are doing what is best for our children.

 

[Halbleib1]

What about kids who died while strapped into their carseat? Do you really think the parents feel any better about the fact that their child is dead simply because they had their child strapped in??? I'm pretty sure that regardless of whether I had my child in a restraint system or not if my child were killed in and accident I would be inconsolable regardless of how or why it happened.

We can try to put a protective bubble around our children as much as we want, but an accident can occur anywhere regardless of how careful you are. If you want to use a car seat on a plane, do so. If you want to use a car seat on a bus then find one that will let you. It's your choice. Many people choose to travel on buses and planes without a car seat and their kids turn out just fine, the same as those kids who are sitting in their car seats. It's personal preference, you aren't right because you choose to use, just like you aren't wrong if you don't. But that is my opinion.

Totally agree with you. Every parent has to decide for themselves. Personally I feel that my son is safe on a plane without a car seat so long as he is buckled in tightly. The same with buses I do not feel a need to have him in a car seat. The only time I have worried is on the park buses as it gets a bit rough at times but we do our best to keep him safe. We make sure he remains seated at all times and we keep an arm around him.

The loss of a child is always devastating no matter how or why it happens. Believe me if you have lost a child you know that as a parent you always think what if. I have asked myself that question many many times over the last 10 years since the death of my daughter from an undiagnosed genetic disorder. The answer to that question is nothing could have prevented her death because it was simply her time to go. It was out of my hands and beyond my control. IMO. As a parent that is very hard to accept. But the truth is as parent's unfortunately we can only do so much. You can not bubble wrap your children no matter how much you might like to. And believe me after what we have been through it is tough to let go sometimes but we know that it is in our son's best interest to do so. It would not be fair to him to hold him back from experiences because of our own fear.

 

[U2_rocks!]

Everyone has their own tolerance for risk. I could prevent my kids from ever riding a bike - that would keep them safer. Helmets don't protect from everything, certainly not broken limbs (or necks!). Bikes aren't *necessary* at all! But for reasons that make sense to ME, I let my kids ride bikes. Other parents let their kids do things that make sense to THEM. Their call. It's not neglect if you've thought it through with love, and the reasons are sound enough for you to live with the consequences. Every one of us was a victim of our own parents' safety decisions and risk tolerance, and our kids will be victims of ours. It's how life works.

 

[r&kmommy]

Everyone has their own tolerance for risk. I could prevent my kids from ever riding a bike - that would keep them safer. Helmets don't protect from everything, certainly not broken limbs (or necks!). Bikes aren't *necessary* at all! But for reasons that make sense to ME, I let my kids ride bikes. Other parents let their kids do things that make sense to THEM. Their call. It's not neglect if you've thought it through with love, and the reasons are sound enough for you to live with the consequences. Every one of us was a victim of our own parents' safety decisions and risk tolerance, and our kids will be victims of ours. It's how life works.

Food for thought, and very well said!!! Thank you!!!