So many stripped resales…

[AnnaKristoff2013]

I'm not so sure they were trying to hide anything.

They are literally telling their customers to lie to Disney so as to hide the fact that they are renting using DVC rental store….

This is not going to end well.

If any other owner/rental agency caveated that you should lie to the resort about the source of your rental that would be a major red flag. If a prospective renter posted this fact pattern on the Timeshare User Group forums they would be told to run for the hills.

 

[airjay75]

They are literally telling their customers to lie to Disney so as to hide the fact that they are renting using DVC rental store….

This is not going to end well.

If any other owner/rental agency caveated that you should lie to the resort about the source of your rental that would be a major red flag. If a prospective renter posted this fact pattern on the Timeshare User Group forums they would be told to run for the hills.

Respectfully, I disagree. I've done many similar short-term "rentals" through places like Airbnb or VRBO. It is very common for them to refer to you as a guest of the owner, and to reinforce that to you in the communications ("remember, you are a guest of such and such, please treat the property as such"). And, under the law, a short-term rental does not typically bestow on you the legal rights of a tenant - you have similar rights to that of a hotel guest or visitor. Referring to yourself as a visitor/tenant/renter is just going to cause confusion. "Hi, I'm checking in! I'm X's visitor/tenant/renter!"

If they had started telling you this after the latest "personal use" box developments, I'd have a different opinion. If we were specifically aware of some flag Disney applies at check-in if you say you're renting, I'd also have a different opinion. To me, the simplest explanation is the likeliest - they want a smooth guest experience for their customers, and preventing confusion with CMs is key to that. Of course, in my experience, renting through dvcrentalstore.com just last week, none of the CMs are going to ask you anything about why/how you booked the room. All they're going to say is "Welcome Home!"

 

[BeachClub2014]

I'm going with shady on this practice, regardless of timing.

The fact that they advise the renter to be, at best, obtuse during check-in to conceal the fact that the reservation is a rental is certainly an indicator that they are aware this practice could (likely) run afoul of DVC rules.

 

[cdirazonian]

If they had started telling you this after the latest "personal use" box developments, I'd have a different opinion. If we were specifically aware of some flag Disney applies at check-in if you say you're renting, I'd also have a different opinion. To me, the simplest explanation is the likeliest - they want a smooth guest experience for their customers, and preventing confusion with CMs is key to that. Of course, in my experience, renting through dvcrentalstore.com just last week, none of the CMs are going to ask you anything about why/how you booked the room. All they're going to say is "Welcome Home!"

Were they telling people to say this last year, before the Dec meeting?

IDK, but if they didn’t have language like that to renters last year, it’d kinda seem like maybe they got “informed” before Disney added the check box for us members, maybe.

 

[airjay75]

Were they telling people to say this last year, before the Dec meeting?

IDK, but if they didn’t have language like that to renters last year, it’d kinda seem like maybe they got “informed” before Disney added the check box for us members, maybe.

I don't know the answer to that, but a good question. Maybe someone else knows.

 

[DanCali]

To be honest, any knowledgeable owner should strip their contracts before selling. The market undervalues loaded contracts and overvalues stripped.

Agree 100%

Stripped 2042 resorts are really overpriced.

I'm just going to say that I disagree that this is clear cut. I think there are different ways to place a value on a stripped contract and one is not necessarily better than the other. It depends on the buyer and their situation/concerns.

For example -

1) A buyer who needs the stripped points now might value the stripped contract at $12/pt-$15/pt less than the unstripped because they'd have to rent points at $21-$23/pt instead of just pay/reimburse dues of $8-$10/pt on the unstripped contract.

2) Take the situation above and the buyer who needs the points now is rental averse and the alternative is to pay a cash rate of $40/pt for the missing points on the stripped contract. Now that delta vs. annual dues is $30/pt...

3) A buyer who doesn't need the points immediately doesn't necessarily care about rental rates or cash rates. (Although they could rent out the unstriped points for a profit and still value the stripping at $12-$15/pt) some buyers in that situation can just say "I'm getting a 39-year contract instead of a 40-year contract so it's worth about 2.5% less (1/40)". On a $150/pt resale contract that 2.5% discount is less than $4/pt...


So here you go - 3 valuation methods valuing the stripped contract at $4-$30/pt less than the unstripped contract and all of them can be somehow justified under certain circumstances/assumptions.

 

[Sandisw]

My whole problem with renting from these brokers now is that as a repeat renter myself, I did not know that commercial renting was strictly against DVC's policy at the time of booking.

This is something I would have liked to know before making this purchase. Even though renting is allowed for owners who are mainly using their membership as intended, I have no idea if this owner i rented from is flagged for having more than 20 reservations, renting thousands of points on on Facebook, etc.

This puts me at risk of being out of a reservation and losing money. And a credit to use in the future isn't going to pay for travel expense etc. Its a risk i wouldnt want to take if informed.

Now that i signed a contract and im stuck, im being sent an email telling me play along with not being part of this owner's rental count and if its a large one thats an issue.

I am also a DVC member myself now and im not supposed to engage in commercial renting and by possibly renting from one, am I not unknowingly engaging in some form? I just wanted a room and to have a fun vacation . And with all this uncertainty id rather just not be part of it in any way.

I can see this being a real problem for the rental stores down the line.

That risk has always been there though. The benefit of using a broker though as most appear to have clauses that won’t leave a renter stranded with nothing if the owner did get in trouble.

Remember, an owner who gets behind in dues will have reservations canceled by DVC too.

So, it’s not just ending up with an owner who may be renting at levels that are commercial but other reasons

It is why we never rented. The risks were not worth the savings for us.

 

[Girlstar30]

That risk has always been there though. The benefit of using a broker though as most appear to have clauses that won’t leave a renter stranded with nothing if the owner did get in trouble.

Remember, an owner who gets behind in dues will have reservations canceled by DVC too.

So, it’s not just ending up with an owner who may be renting at levels that are commercial but other reasons

It is why we never rented. The risks were not worth the savings for us.

Didn't even think about the delinquent dues, I dont foresee myself renting again after this rental either. The lack of flexibility was enough to steer me away aside from all this

 

[Brianstl]

That risk has always been there though. The benefit of using a broker though as most appear to have clauses that won’t leave a renter stranded with nothing if the owner did get in trouble.

Remember, an owner who gets behind in dues will have reservations canceled by DVC too.

So, it’s not just ending up with an owner who may be renting at levels that are commercial but other reasons

It is why we never rented. The risks were not worth the savings for us.

We rented one time because my wife really wanted to make sure we could stay at Beach Club Villas for a week for one specific trip during food and wine. We rented at 11 months out. Got the room type we wanted. It was great. Not as great if we would have used our own points, but it sure beat paying what we would have had to paid Disney for a any room or villa at Beach Club. Then COVID hit. It all ended up working out, but there was a time span where we didn't know if we were going to get screwed or not. It was stressful.

After that, I haven't really thought about renting points for a extra trip again.

 

[Girlstar30]

We rented one time because my wife really wanted to make sure we could stay at Beach Club Villas for a week for one specific trip during food and wine. We rented at 11 months out. Got the room type we wanted. It was great. Not as great if we would have used our own points, but it sure beat paying what we would have had to paid Disney for a any room or villa at Beach Club. Then COVID hit. It all ended up working out, but there was a time span where we didn't know if we were going to get screwed or not. It was stressful.

After that, I haven't really thought about renting points for a extra trip again.

When it works out, its great. Our first rental with David's went without a hitch and we got all the rooms we wanted and thankfully there was no reason not to go on the trip.

With our next rental (dvc rental store) we ended up cancelling because we bought a dvc membership and didnt need it anymore. But we were then stuck with a rental credit we dont need anymore with an expiration date. And when you paid a lot and have no need for it that's frustrating.

So I used it to book vdh for my birthday because we wont need it for Florida anymore. But they didnt have the room type I want and there's no where else I need it for except if I wanted to stay at riv, which im already staying at from a different reservation.

So now im stuck staying in a room im not too thrilled about or losing all my money. One bedroom rentals are too expensive to justify renting points or i would have loved to snag the HA that was avail.

I think renting is great for first timers that want to stay at DVC, but long term it is way better to just buy a contract imo especially if you want to go at least every two years and 1 direct with incentives to eliminate the need for rentals.

 

[Brianstl]

When it works out, its great. Our first rental with David's went without a hitch and we got all the rooms we wanted and thankfully there was no reason not to go on the trip.

With our next rental (dvc rental store) we ended up cancelling because we bought a dvc membership and didnt need it anymore. But we were then stuck with a rental credit we dont need anymore with an expiration date. And when youre paid a lot this is frustrating.

So I used it to book vdh for my birthday because we wont need it for Florida anymore. But they didnt have the room type I want and there's no where else I need it for except if I wanted to stay at riv, which im already staying at from a different reservation.

So now im stuck staying in a room im not too thrilled about or losing all my money. One bedroom rentals are too expensive to justify renting points or i would have loved to snag the HA that was avail.

I think renting is great for first timers that want to stay at DVC, but long term it is way better to just buy a contract imo especially if you want to go at least every two years and 1 direct with incentives to eliminate the need for rentals.

The one stressful situation was enough for us on the renting. The only problem now is that we are 4 years out from when the wife and I will be able to make yearly food and wine trips (son going off to college). Plus, I will be able to retire early then if I want to. Location is big for us during food and wine. So now I am already stalking resale RIV listings just in case something too good and perfect pops up.

 

[Stank]

The moderator has asked us not to get into political discussions so to be safe, I'm not going to respond to the general macroeconomic points, but based on what I'm personally seeing and hearing from being in senior leadership at two very different corporations (one giant multinational, the other a closely held company worth < $100mil, in two totally different industries), if I wanted to unload a timeshare in the next 12 months, I would absolutely be trying to sell it as swiftly as possible.

That's before you take into consideration what will happen to the DVC resale market IF Disney brings down the hammer on a few big renters... so, bringing us back on topic, that is why I would not strip a contract to (hopefully) make a few extra dollars per point.

Yeah, I just don’t see anything to indicate that. Disney’s decisions will be the reason to buy/sell DVC than anything macro.

If you listen to people who worked for DVC and had to sell DVC after 2008 and 9/11, it was doldrums for about 6 weeks. Then back in business. Look at COVID. Anyone buying DVC in April 2020 was “crazy,” yet BLT was listed (and selling) at $180-200 resale in May 2021.

I get it—it’s human nature to treat anecdotes as a inside information with greater implications, but unless what you know is worse than 9/11, or 2008, or COVID, I doubt “sell now” is good advice. The problem is bears always have good points and the best stories to scare—but it’s been a complete mistake to listen to them. DVC bounced back from the worst market crashes and travel scares of our lifetimes. The actual worst times to have bought DVC was in 2021/22 when everyone had a reason TO travel.

What’s more of a problem is what Disney decides to do with their parks in general. That’s really the only thing that matters for DVC buyers. I don’t think commercial renters dumping inventory is going to dent pricing long-term. They’ve already stripped the contracts and can sit for the next year. They’re not desperate sellers. And DVC rentals are such a small segment of the DVC universe, I just don’t think this stuff will matter. The commercial renters aren’t going to panic sell; they’re the most informed DVC sellers out there.

 

[eticketplease]

With our next rental (dvc rental store) we ended up cancelling because we bought a dvc membership and didnt need it anymore. But we were then stuck with a rental credit we dont need anymore with an expiration date. And when you paid a lot and have no need for it that's frustrating.

I can certainly understand your frustration but before the pandemic if you canceled you were out everything unless you had paid for the extra insurance.

You have to look at the bright side and while not ideal you did get a trip for your money.

Now as an owner you realize how hard it is to make last minute reservations which is what happens at these rental sites when one cancels. They have already paid the owner a good percentage when the reservation was booked and will pay the rest on check-in day regardless if the renter cancels or goes. So the company has to try and find someway to use the points that were rented for a specific place and then subsequently cancelled at the last minute before they expire.

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

I get it—it’s human nature to treat anecdotes as a inside information with greater implications, but unless what you know is worse than 9/11, or 2008, or COVID, I doubt “sell now” is good advice. The problem is bears always have good points and the best stories to scare—but it’s been a complete mistake to listen to them. DVC bounced back from the worst market crashes and travel scares of our lifetimes. The actual worst times to have bought DVC was in 2021/22 when everyone had a reason TO travel.

Are you, by chance, under 50? Just because the last few dips were short doesn't mean the next ones necessarily will be. There have been plenty of recessions worse than 2001, 2008, and 2020, FYI.

I'm not suggesting that anybody should sell now if they have the financial security to hold their contracts for at least 5 years, I'm definitely not selling at least 75% of my contracts (though I'll probably sell one if Disney starts punishing the 21st reservation when 19 of the original 20 were for my own use).

We aren't talking about panic selling to get ahead of market crash, we're talking about people who know they want to get out, getting out quickly to avoid even a short correction or Disney forcing out big commercial renters, so the market coming back in 6-24 months doesn't really help those people.

 

[Mouseforward]

I would say if your financial situation requires renting points to afford your MF , its time to sell some.