Small Contracts (50 points and under)

[ELMC]

I am using that contract because it is a REAL situation that I just worked on for someone using the contracts that are for sale right now.

If I could get the prices someone else paid in the past then I would love it, but I can't.

I know now that many small contracts never make it to the listings, so that makes the listed contracts second choice at best.

I could figure out a lot of different ways to make one or the other look better, but I only have so many options to look at. Just knowing that a seller wants too much money doesn't make the price cheaper. Knowing that the price is too high doesn't get you points when you want to go on vacation this year.

I understand what you are saying and I am not doubting that it was a real situation. What I am saying is that it is a poor example of what happens (a stripped contract going for above top dollar) and that you should not lose hope. Small contracts come up frequently and yes, they sell frequently. Just know that there are better deals to be had, you just have to be patience. That's the cost of buying resale I suppose.

 

[permavac]

I am using that contract because it is a REAL situation that I just worked on for someone using the contracts that are for sale right now.

If I could get the prices someone else paid in the past then I would love it, but I can't.

I know now that many small contracts never make it to the listings, so that makes the listed contracts second choice at best.

I could figure out a lot of different ways to make one or the other look better, but I only have so many options to look at. Just knowing that a seller wants too much money doesn't make the price cheaper. Knowing that the price is too high doesn't get you points when you want to go on vacation this year.

So what happens when you take my data (50-point BWV resale contract) against your SSR example? Could that maybe equal things out in your mind? That's another real example. Don't get me wrong - you are correct - I am always amazed when I see that higher than 25 points contracts that are stripped actually get buyers, but so are most people on these boards. When I was buying in 2008 the biggest admonishment on here was don't buy a stripped contract. If you are picking up that mantra to warn unsuspecting buyers, then I understand because people really should do the math to see if a contract is a good deal. I still don't have a problem with a buyer focusing on the actual price though - if they have considered all their options. I did buy a stripped contract initially but the layout was only $2K and the next best (with points) was $500+ more that I just didn't have - I wanted to pay cash and canceled my 3rd vacation of the year to buy the points instead.

Terri

 

[Tunseeker1]

So what happens when you take my data (50-point BWV resale contract) against your SSR example? Could that maybe equal things out in your mind? That's another real example. Don't get me wrong - you are correct - I am always amazed when I see that higher than 25 points contracts that are stripped actually get buyers, but so are most people on these boards. When I was buying in 2008 the biggest admonishment on here was don't buy a stripped contract. If you are picking up that mantra to warn unsuspecting buyers, then I understand because people really should do the math to see if a contract is a good deal. I still don't have a problem with a buyer focusing on the actual price though - if they have considered all their options. I did buy a stripped contract initially but the layout was only $2K and the next best (with points) was $500+ more that I just didn't have - I wanted to pay cash and canceled my 3rd vacation of the year to buy the points instead.

Terri

Your example doesn't equal out in my mind. I just get tired of everyone saying that resale is always a better way to go.

When you are trying to go on vacation and you are a person that is not a member, direct might make sense.

I put 4 offers in on small contracts for my friend. (Some before they actually hit the listings pages) not one of them was accepted at what I thought was a fair offer. I had a small contract in ROFR when the seller backed out.

These things do not equal warm and fuzzy.

I am saying that not all small point contracts are worth it resale,I started a topic asking about resale contracts because I believed that resale is the way to go, and I never really looked into the smaller contracts.

When I was on my journey to help someone get a membership I found new information which changed the rules on small contracts for me.

 

[permavac]

...I just get tired of everyone saying that resale is always a better way to go.

When you are trying to go on vacation and you are a person that is not a member, direct might make sense.

I put 4 offers in on small contracts for my friend. (Some before they actually hit the listings pages) not one of them was accepted at what I thought was a fair offer. I had a small contract in ROFR when the seller backed out.

These things do not equal warm and fuzzy...

I understand now - you are just venting. Yes - resale can be a very frustrating experience and that's before you even get to ROFR. Even after, once you do get through, the title companies can hold it out for weeks longer. We all have to do what's right for us - there are plenty of instances where I would rather pay for convenience. Buying direct is not a bad way to go and it is, hands down, the easiest.

...I am saying that not all small point contracts are worth it resale...

True!

Hope you get the contract you're looking for.

Terri

 

[JimMIA]

I am using that contract because it is a REAL situation that I just worked on for someone using the contracts that are for sale right now.

If I could get the prices someone else paid in the past then I would love it, but I can't.

Couple of things. First of all, there is often a fairly wide gap between the listing price you see on a broker's website and the actual selling price.

Second, if you look at the ROFR thread, you will find several years of sales history reflecting what contracts actually SOLD for, and also whether or not they cleared ROFR.

Knowing that the price is too high doesn't get you points when you want to go on vacation this year.

Considering what may or may not happen in the next 8 months is one of the fundamental mistakes people make. Don't let shortterm considerations influence any timeshare purchase. The purchase works longterm or it doesn't work at all.

Buying because of something it does for you in near term is almost always a mistake.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Your example doesn't equal out in my mind. I just get tired of everyone saying that resale is always a better way to go.

No advice will fit every situation and it's up to each to evaluate what is best for their individual circumstances. But the general advice that resale is best from a financial perspective is usually correct.

 

[Tunseeker1]

I wanted to thank everyone for their input on this.

I started this thread because I was trying to help someone become a member after they thought buying is a good idea.

I went to the listings for the 4 resellers I think are the big players I the market and chose to put offers in on some of them. Some of the offers were based on historical sales data and using common sense regarding the use of the membership for this year and going forward.

I was not as lucky as people appear to be when buying small contracts.

I came back to this thread to discuss what I found out, and what happened for a membership.

I have been told that the data and numbers in my examples are either wrong or can only be used for a very narrow purchase window. I have had folks tell me that I must be doing something wrong in not finding the deals that were around years ago for contracts I cannot get.

When someone tells me that the pricing on a listing is not what it is going to sell for, after I bid on the property, I question the base of knowlage for the answer.
I have looked at all the contracts 5O points and under that are currently open for offers.

I am not venting, not angry or I this going to change anything about my life, but I don't understand how so many people cannot understand that every purchase is unique and that what I was trying to do is not what is always the best.

Even after all the time I have spent on this someone will still say that resale is the better way to go.

 

[Missyrose]

I wanted to thank everyone for their input on this.

I started this thread because I was trying to help someone become a member after they thought buying is a good idea.

I went to the listings for the 4 resellers I think are the big players I the market and chose to put offers in on some of them. Some of the offers were based on historical sales data and using common sense regarding the use of the membership for this year and going forward.

I was not as lucky as people appear to be when buying small contracts.

I came back to this thread to discuss what I found out, and what happened for a membership.

I have been told that the data and numbers in my examples are either wrong or can only be used for a very narrow purchase window. I have had folks tell me that I must be doing something wrong in not finding the deals that were around years ago for contracts I cannot get.

When someone tells me that the pricing on a listing is not what it is going to sell for, after I bid on the property, I question the base of knowlage for the answer.
I have looked at all the contracts 5O points and under that are currently open for offers.

I am not venting, not angry or I this going to change anything about my life, but I don't understand how so many people cannot understand that every purchase is unique and that what I was trying to do is not what is always the best.

Even after all the time I have spent on this someone will still say that resale is the better way to go.

My question is: If you made all those offers on resale contracts that were turned down, did any of the owners counter-offer? And were you bidding below asking price? I'm just wondering because you're willing to pay a premium ($100+) to go direct and just get the points, then perhaps bidding asking price or just above could get you the resale contract you were originally after.

 

[fmer55]

Couple of things. First of all, there is often a fairly wide gap between the listing price you see on a broker's website and the actual selling price.

Second, if you look at the ROFR thread, you will find several years of sales history reflecting what contracts actually SOLD for, and also whether or not they cleared ROFR.

Considering what may or may not happen in the next 8 months is one of the fundamental mistakes people make. Don't let shortterm considerations influence any timeshare purchase. The purchase works longterm or it doesn't work at all.

Buying because of something it does for you in near term is almost always a mistake.

I would only buy resale, never, ever would i buy direct. That being said i would just like to point out the rofr boards are not a fair example of what is going on out there. There are many, many contracts that sell for much higher than the ones that make our boards. The people that come in here, IMO, myself included, are ONLY looking for the best deal we can possibly make and would never pay an asking price. And if we did pay a little higher than we wanted we would not be advertising that we became impatient and paid a higher price to sooth our wants. We are egotistical as a group and there are many, many, A-personalities in here, again, myself included. Of course i have no data to substatiate this, but i would be willing to wager that for every on of us bottom feeders, there is a contract that goes for close to asking price

 

[permavac]

...but i would be willing to wager that for every on of us bottom feeders, there is a contract that goes for close to asking price

Close to asking price? I paid asking price! I admitted it too, so I guess I don't have such a big ego I was outbid on a 50-point BCV contract about a week before the BWV contract came up at Fidelity. I was determined to not be outbid again. I called Sharon and told her I wanted to make a full price offer. I decided that if I wanted the BWV contract, I was going to have to pay full price and I was very willing to - this was a loaded contract and I still saved money compared to getting a 50-pt contract direct from Disney. Incidentally - I used 3 data points to make my full-priced offer: 1. I know how quickly small resale contracts go and that they go for higher prices. 2. I had already been outbid on another contract that I offered close to full price, but not quite. 3. The ROFR thread does lead people to believe that you shouldn't make full price offers so I figured I was probably the only one doing it on that contract.

Would I offer full price for a larger point contract? No - I will use the ROFR thread to guide my offer and would shoot for a new all-time low But, small resales are what they are... And of course, I haven't passed ROFR yet...

Terri

 

[Tunseeker1]

I bid full price on one and seller backed out then listed it higher then I had offered for a loaded contract. It was only listed for about 10 mins when I called. The seller found out about some taxes and raised the price on the contract.

I bid on a stripped hhi contract that was stripped for 2 a point below. Listed for $60 a point plus 9 a point in closing. You can buy hhi direct for $80 a point and get points to use now.

I bid on another contract that has been on the market for almost 2 years and was turned down flat over paying dues on 2010 points that were going to expire before I could ever close with a Minh of ROFR.

 

[ELMC]

Ok, so I'm glad that you say that you're not angry or anything...that's a good thing. I have some thoughts about your post and I guess I should also preface my comments by saying that I'm not angry either. It may seem like I'm arguing with you, but in truth what I am doing is simply disagreeing with you. And it's all with the idea of helping you reach your goals. I'm not looking for any fights.

I have been told that the data and numbers in my examples are either wrong or can only be used for a very narrow purchase window. I have had folks tell me that I must be doing something wrong in not finding the deals that were around years ago for contracts I cannot get.

With all due respect, the numbers I used were from February of this year. And we're not saying you're doing anything wrong per se, but the fact is that people out there are getting these good deals, and you are not. Perhaps a reexamination of your methods is in order?

I have looked at all the contracts 5O points and under that are currently open for offers.

Perhaps that is part of your problem. Many people who are able to snag smaller contracts do so before they ever hit the open market. Others grab them literally within minutes.

I don't understand how so many people cannot understand that every purchase is unique and that what I was trying to do is not what is always the best.

Again, with all due respect, I think that is what a lot of people responding to your posts have been saying. Every purchase is unique. Please consider the possibility that your experience is an outlier, and not ours. My momma always told me, if one person doesn't agree with you, it's them. If everybody doesn't agree with you...it's you.

Even after all the time I have spent on this someone will still say that resale is the better way to go.

Direct prices are fixed and resale prices fluctuate. If you are looking for a low price, resale is the way to go. Not every contract, mind you, just the right one. If you have other considerations, maybe resale isn't the way to go. It seems to me that you would rather prove your point than be successful. If you're going to stick with that mentality, it could prove difficult to get what you want. I wish you the best.

 

[Tunseeker1]

I understand what you are saying about every situation and all, but no One seems to understand that I was presented with a limited window to work in for a contract. Its not for me so I can only do so much.

I get the listings before they are released into the wild, I know what a good deal for me would be (I ended up making an offer at AKV that's in ROFR right now).

I was just saying that not all contracts resale are a good deal. Many people still say that resale is the only way to go, and I disagree. When I show you what I used to figure this out, I keep getting told that I must be doing something wrong.

I think that some things have changed since everyone assumed resale is a better way to go.

1 if everyone says that small contracts go for more money per point, the sellers will expect to get anything they want.
2. Sellers think that everyone wants small contracts because they are cheap so they can get what they want.

With Disney opening up 50 point new contracts to new members, the resale pricing might need to adjust. $450 in closing and 100% of dues is adding a lot to the cost per point of smaller contracts that may not make ROFR.

Look at the listings right now and find me a small contract that passes muster.

AKV for $90 a point $450 in closing and dues works out to $107ish a point
Savings of like $300 total is not a good deal

 

[ELMC]

I understand what you are saying about every situation and all, but no One seems to understand that I was presented with a limited window to work in for a contract. Its not for me so I can only do so much.

Well if time is your enemy, then you are in trouble. The key to getting a good resale deal is patience. So I see your point there.

I get the listings before they are released into the wild, I know what a good deal for me would be (I ended up making an offer at AKV that's in ROFR right now).

Good luck!

I was just saying that not all contracts resale are a good deal. Many people still say that resale is the only way to go, and I disagree. When I show you what I used to figure this out, I keep getting told that I must be doing something wrong.

I would be wary of anyone who uses words like "always", "never" and "the only way". So I agree with you there. As far as what you did wrong, it was simply your timing. You're trying to buy a small contract at a time where the supply is short. Not really wrong, but definitely problematic.

I think that some things have changed since everyone assumed resale is a better way to go.

Perhaps. Demand is quite high for smaller contracts.

1 if everyone says that small contracts go for more money per point, the sellers will expect to get anything they want.

The majority, yes. You need to find that one seller who just wants to dump.

2. Sellers think that everyone wants small contracts because they are cheap so they can get what they want.

True.

With Disney opening up 50 point new contracts to new members, the resale pricing might need to adjust. $450 in closing and 100% of dues is adding a lot to the cost per point of smaller contracts that may not make ROFR.

That is absolutely correct. But this is a new development and it will take the market awhile to adjust. I don't think the majority of the people out there are aware of this change in policy. I still haven't seen anything official on it either, just what I've read on the DIS.

Look at the listings right now and find me a small contract that passes muster.

There are a couple OKW and OKW extended contracts out there that can be potentially negotiated down to a good deal.

AKV for $90 a point $450 in closing and dues works out to $107ish a point
Savings of like $300 total is not a good deal

Agreed. But eventually you will find someone who will sell you that contract for $70 or $75 per point, or pay the closing, or waive mf reimbursement. Again it all comes down to how much time you have. As time passes the odds that any event will occur approaches 1:1.

I guess the point you're trying to make is that going resale isn't a no brainer on a small contract, and I would agree with that. But I still say that the potential for something great exists, if you have the time and resources. If not, buy direct and just get it over with. You'll probably have the benefit of snagging somebody's resale through ROFR.

As an aside, is there any reason why your friend is not considering a less competitive 100 point contract? More supply, less demand, greater negotiating power, closing costs amortized over more points...in a lot of cases you can get double the points for only 50% more money. Just a thought.

 

[Tunseeker1]

It's 100% about money out of pocket.

After spending about $8000 on his last Disney trip and another trip coming up later this year he is broke right now for dvc money.

He ended up with 50 points at Vero at $75 a point. 50% deposit 12 months at 4.9% interest.

Out of pocket was like 1800. Payment is about 160 a month

 

[Kidanifan08]

I have two small resales and one currently in ROFR. My first experience with the resale world was pre-March 20, 2011, and there seemed to be a flurry of resale activity in those weeks before the deadline. I got sucked into that madness and bought a 50pt resale for asking price -- AKV $85/pt. I think the closing costs were around $300, which makes the purchase $91/pt. At the time, I think AKV was going for $115 or $120 direct, so I saving $25-30/pt was still a good savings in my mind. The resale that I purchased was a different UY than our main AKV contract, which has not been ideal, but we have been able to make it work.

Our second resale purchase was just a few months after we closed on the first resale. It was 55pt at AKV in our original contract UY and I paid the asking price of $79/pt and the closing was $350, making the cost about $86/pt. This one came with some banked and previous year points at no added cost, so I felt good about the purchase. Again, I saved over what it would have cost to buy direct.

I now have a small AKV contract at ROFR. I was able to get $4/pt less than the asking price. This one also comes with some banked points at no additional cost and the closing costs are around $425.

I did not get the greatest deal on the first two and the last one is decent. The contracts all met my needs at the time of purchase, so I see the closing costs as an "opportunity cost" rather than a buy-in cost. I am willing to throw closing into the price per point, as I think it is appropriate. I have paid MF's on all of the current UY points that I have purchased via resale, and I don't think it is reasonable to calculate that into your price per point expenses -- MF's are MF's and you have to pay for them for the rest of the contract, so I don't consider them a buy in cost.

I watch the posted resales regularly, and it is rare to see a <100 pt contract listed for a "steal". And I do think they get asking price (or close to it) because some people just need a few more points and they are willing to pay that price vs. the price of buying direct. They also don't seem to last long, so it seems to be working for the sellers. Who knows, I may try to unload that 50pt contract in the different UY someday and I will hold out for top dollar because I don't really need to get rid of it, I just want to. Somebody will come along who is just looking for a few more AKV points and buy it.

The great deals seem to be the 160+ point contracts. Most of the time, the </= 100 pointers are going to be a win for the seller, but the buyer will get what they were looking for -- a few more points to work with at a price that is lower than DVC direct.

 

[ELMC]

It's 100% about money out of pocket.

After spending about $8000 on his last Disney trip and another trip coming up later this year he is broke right now for dvc money.

He ended up with 50 points at Vero at $75 a point. 50% deposit 12 months at 4.9% interest.

Out of pocket was like 1800. Payment is about 160 a month

None of this is making sense to me anymore. I find it difficult to believe that someone who comes across as cost conscious as you would advocate buying a resort that has, by far, the highest annual maintenance fees of all the DVC properties. (And notice that I said "DVC" properties and not "Disney" properties, because it may not even get you on site).

IMO this purchase needs to be rethought from the beginning. If your friend has $8,000 to spend on a Disney vacation, surely he can afford more than 50 points at Vero Beach. If he has an upcoming trip planned, why can't he reallocate some of that money towards the purchase of DVC and use it for lodging. If he has an appetite for $8,000 vacations, how is 50 points going to do anything for him at all? Finally, if he's that strapped, why is he buying DVC in the first place? I'm not trying to be mean, but this deal has buyer's remorse written all over it.

I'm beyond confused. Somebody please help me.

 

[Tunseeker1]

He was at Disney and saw the model.
Then he saw the big price at the bottom of the direct price for BLT.
Google Dvc resale.
Find out that you can get Vero for $40 a point.
40x100 points is 4000

Then he asks me about how to buy for less then 16 grand.
I make some offers and get turned down.
I tell him about direct pricing.
He buys 50 points at Vero.

Last vacation for him was 9 days long because it somehow seemed like a better value at a mod with dining and tickets.

Staying at Dvc will allow cheaper tickets because of no expire, and better option for ddp.

He went 2 yrs ago and spent almost as much as this trip.

50 points is a toe dip in Dvc. If it works out then he gets more.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I'm beyond confused. Somebody please help me.

This sounds like a very quick, gotta have it now decision and I'm not understanding the self imposed deadline.

If the question was how to buy in for under $16k there are many, many other options.

If your friend actually wants to stay at WDW and not VB and wants a good deal for under 16k I'd really recommend putting a little more time into learning more about DVC and in looking for a more appropriate contract.

If he wants to stay at VB, wants the 11 month booking window there and has to have it today then ok - go with what you got.

 

[ELMC]

Staying at Dvc will allow cheaper tickets because of no expire, and better option for ddp.

How do you figure?