Hello all!
I am starting my pre trip report. My name is Helen. I have pulled together a whopper of a trip this time and we will see how well it goes. Let me first give the dates:
September 19th through the 27th. We are taking advantage of the free dining.
This started off as a family of four vacation. My husband and I actually commented that this would be our first trip to Disney by our selves, as a family of four. This is my fifth trip to Disneyworld, my husbands fourth, and my kids third. I went the first time to DW when I was about 22, however, grew up going to Disneyland as we lived in California.
When my father offered us either 5 grand for a wedding or 5 grand for a honeymoon to Disneyworld, we opted for number two and then eloped.
OOO, he wasnt happy.
But he didnt say WE had to pay for a wedding. If I could go back, I would have used that 5,000 towards a wedding at Disney, but it didnt even occur to me at the time. And my husband would probably not have gone for that. But, you know, he was in love at the time, so who knows. LOL Now, he has been married to me for 10 years and now he says no to me. Darn it!
Anyways, to the cast members:
First is myself.
Honestly, I would say I have a problem, a serious Disney problem. My bills are definitely paid, but any extra dime I have goes to Disney. I have raised my kids to be Disney fanatics, but basically because my husband wouldnt allow pink in the house for the two years of my daughters life, AND he nixed the Winnie the Pooh nursery that I wanted. Now, in my defense, I was wearing a blue jean long sleeved shirt when we eloped
. It had Winnie the Pooh and friends on the back of it. So he had a chance to change his mind. He KNEW from the beginning what kind of freak I was!
Mark- We met while he was in the Marine Corps. He jokingly and lovely teases me that he was drinking a lot back then and that is why he missed that Winnie the Pooh shirt.
The poor guy grew up at Six Flags and even worked at Six Flags for a few years. I blame his parents for his lack of enthusiasm and imagination. Tsk Tsk. It is such a shame. He is the laid back one in the family, and he thinks a vacation means lying around for 7 days and sleeping, and if we are lucky, he might shower in between all the lying around and sleeping. He works for an airline, so he travels A LOT. So I get that for vacation, the last thing he wants to get on ANOTHER plane and travel some more. But he does it, for the kids he says. He is getting better over the years though. He now at least plays along with the kids. I think he truly enjoys seeing them happy and living it through them, but he still has a hard time understanding why I get all worked up.
Last year, we went to have Breakfast with Mary Poppins and I actually cried when I saw her. He totally razzed me for weeks. Ugh, cant he just GET it??? That WAS Mary Poppins! COME ON!
Our daughter, Catie 8 years old
- She has been going to Disneyland since she was 4. That was the first time I had experienced a character meal with the princesses, and I have been hooked ever since! And needless to say, she has been too! So here we are to her third trip to Disney World and she has become a pro at this. She still does the Disney Count down and looks forward to it.
Our Son, Kevin 4 years old-
Kevin was diagnosed with Autism at 2, and there have been many times we have been afraid of how his life was really going to turn out. However, on our trip back in February, he started talking at Disney World. Yes! His therapists have commented only good things since we have been back, saying it has been like a light has been turned on. He rarely stems now and even though he has a lot of work to do, has made AMAZING progress. So we are back to see what he will start doing on this trip! Way to go, Kevin! Although he is 4 by age, it is only reflective to how many times he has been around the sun. Speech wise, he is that of a 14 to 18 month old. Maturity wise more of a 2 year old. This makes him almost dangerous since he is twice the size of a 2 year old. Now he is can climb and then jump, and you still cant reason with WHY he isnt allowed to jump off very tall things.
So we booked at the Sports and I started celebrating that we were going to have the cheapest vacation ever. LOL Then I started looking around, and reading trip reports, and read about the VIP guide. And thought, awesome! How cool is THAT. So I started leaning toward that.
Then I got a phone call from Hollie, my husbands niece. She just turned 19, works at Six Flags (again, that family!) and said she had quit another job and wanted to know when we were going to Disney. I had been talking to her for the past year about taking her. A few years ago her father died in a motorcycle wreck and my sister in law took her and her siblings in when their mother was too busy to care for them. She had never left the state before flying up to see us, and she is such a doll. I really wanted to do something nice for her. So since we already had a trip on the books, and free dining, why not this time?
So we called Disney back, and upgraded from the Sports to Riverside (again) because you cant stay in a value with 5 unless you get a suite. ( Honestly, I think this is a bit nuts. I mean, why not a roll away and charge me for it? When you book a party of 5, you are pretty limited on where you can stay. That is a little frustrating.)
So, now Hollie has joined us. Her first time to Disney anything. I am excited! Man! Disney with Hollie! My daughter is dancing around the living room and we are stoked. Mark is happy that we have another person to go in case he wants to: drum roll please: SLEEP.
So a week or so passes, and then I think about my brother. I had tried to talk him into going with us in February when we went, but money was tight. So I called him to let him know about the free dining. Oh! They already knew! They were thinking about going the week BEFORE us. OH NO! NO NO NO! You cant go THAT week. Well, he said that they were looking and for a party of four, it would cost them 4 grand to go. So they had backed out and decided not to go at all.
WHAT? So I asked him, to go where? Are you pricing Disneyland Paris???? Good Grief, brother! Call your family more often!
So I took a deep breath. Brother, oh dear brother who kicked me in the mouth and knocked out two of my teeth. What am I going to do with you?? Your MOTHER works for Delta airlines. Your brother in law works for Southwest. Why are you looking at buying plane tickets??? He said because I only thought buddy passes would apply to me. No no no! So, after another 15 to 20 minutes of explaining the flight benefits that his family has had for the last 7 YEARS, I told him Now. I have gotten you down to a 2,000 vacation. Is THAT doable?
His response was That is closer to it and then he asked about Park hoppers. Man, you dont HAVE to have park hoppers. I have found I dont use them when I have smaller kids. If I plan a little bit, just make my dining in that park or around that park, I am good. But I have a hard time paying 45 bucks a person just to park hop one time during the week. You know? I personally have found that I waste more time trying to drag small kids from one park to another, adding stress to their world and my mine.
Hey, I have a reservation at the castle for lunch I will give you for your girls if you will come!
Wow! You should work for Disney! You drive a hard bargain! Every time I talk to you I want to go to Disney World again.
Alas, the park hoppers were cancelled. They had to talk about it and would call me back. Ok, good. A week went by. OMgosh, I knew I was impatient but golly gee. Finally, he calls me back We have agreed to go. YESSSSSSSSSS!!!!
Now he wants to discuss what order to book his stuff in. Oh geez, dude, call up and pick a hotel and book it! It is FREE DINING. They book up fast! HURRY! Should they do Pop, music, sports? Mmm, doesnt matter. You arent going to be in the room that much. Take a family vote really quick and go for it. Over analyzing will kill you.
Four days later, they got on line and all the values were gone. So they had to shave off a day and book at the Caribbean. (Well, it wasnt from my lack of trying.) But at least they are going at the same time we were. So now, we are a party of 9!
Craig, my only other sibling is 5 years older than me. He is a forever dead head. A hippie born 20 year too late. He is now clean cut, and works in the white collar world, but by heart he would like to live off the land and breed fish and rock collect for the rest of his life. Extremely laid back and goes with the flow, however, is annoyed by the uptight and doesnt like to be rushed . Aka me! LOL. This is why we are polar opposites and never got along as children.
Randi, my sister in law. Love her. Is the perfect match for my brother. Has embraced him for all that he is. Again, loves to hike, fish, live off the land.
Jasmine 10 years old- The first grand child and has a wonderful personality. Very smart. She is named Jasmine, but not after Disney. I think more after the plant. Again, they are earthy people.
Amarine 7 years old- She is their last daughter. Randi and Craig jokingly call her the angry child. She doesnt like to be jacked with. And that is something my brother has always done. Jacked with you. So he teases her a lot to try and get her to lighten up. She isnt angry, she just doesnt seem to have a sense of humor about anything. She takes everything literally. I dont think she is a dreamer, like Caitlin and Jasmine are. She is just more matter of fact. Again, complete opposite of Jasmine.
Let me add that my brother and Randi also went to Disney World on their honeymoon. Randi, however, converted right over to being a Disney lover. Mark is still protesting.
So, now we are a Grand Gathering! YEAH!!!
Unfortunately, by the time everything fell into place, there were no grand gatherings tours left. Although I am calling often to check. Since we have now added some people to the party, I opted out of the VIP guide and have decided to upgrade us to the Dining Deluxe plan. This will be our first time using this option.
My brother and his family are still on dial up, bless their hearts. And up until now, have requested that pictures of their children not be on the internet. Did I mention that they are very simple people? Not really caring for keeping up with the technology of today? Which is fine with me.
I recently got permission to put pictures of them on our family web site which requires a password to get into. So I will check and see if trip reports are part of that. If not, I will use their pictures and just draw a big happy face over theirs. that way you can just imagine what they look like.
Well, with the change in Craigs dates, I get to keep the Cinderella Royal Table. I had made this reservation back when we were a party of four, and I cant get it changed to a party of 5. So I offered to let my husband go with the three kids ( I still call Hollie a kid even though she is 19) and I would go shopping or something else. He then replied Oh really? You want ME to go to the Castle??? Joy! I think there was a hint of sarcasm there.
Well, what do you want to do??
Sleep in!
Mark, it is at 2:00 in the afternoon! How can you sleep IN?
Really? You have to ask that?
I dont know. I dont think Kevin will really care where he is. He is still afraid of the characters but loves to go with Catie and Hollie. So I dont know if I should try and make an ADR for him and Mark and have Mark take him some where else. Or if I should just let Mark stay at the hotel that morning. However, we do have a breakfast ADR with Lilo and Stitch. So I am not sure what our plans are or what I should. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Our dining plans. Oh wow. Since my brother is sorta new to this, he has been to the World three times and they have never gotten the dining plan. So they arent quite clear how it works. I think they have to go through it first and then come out on the end going OOOHHHHH! I get it!
So I have tried to lead them. They are actually the type of vacationers ( like my husband) who want to sleep in, then spend an hour drinking coffee somewhere and then pull out the map and decide which PARK to go to. Where they are going to eat is not really something they think about. Having a child with Autism, our life hasnt been under the terms of Winging it for a long time. Our motto is Prepare for the worst, hope for the best. That seems to get us moving. So, I tried to explain to my brother that you CAN cancel an ADR if you wake up that day and decide that you arent hungry for that, or you dont feel like going over there. But, having had my ADRs and being a member of the Dis community, you definitely want to make them and then cancel them versus not having them at all and wishing you did.
So a few days later he calls me back to talk about some restaurants. All of our ADRs for a party of five were made. But I told him that on most we were flexible into changing to either a party of 9 or changing locations all together so we could meet up with them. We dont plan on being together all the time, just ride a few things and then split up and then ride a few other things together later.
He said Wow, not having park hoppers and then trying to make your ADRs months in advance takes some planning, doesnt it?
Yes, I know it is outside of your comfort zone, but you dont have to keep them if you decide that day you want to do something else. However, it is better to atleast have a plan since you are not getting park hoppers.
Then I proceeded to tell him about our trip 18 months ago with a party of 7 where I had all of our ADRs set up, and then we switch park days to cover someone who decided to stay longer. UGH. We were in the middle of Animal Kingdom when we needed to be over in Magic Kingdom for an ADR. What a NIGHT MARE. I learned from there that when I switch days, I switch ADRs or I dont switch parks at all. We wasted more time on those buses trying to get to and from our dining reservations.
So last year I learned by either making breakfast ADRs or Dinner ADRS out side of the parks. Only lunches did I do IN the parks. So we werent leaving the parks in the middle of the day to go hunt down a reservation. It really seemed to work best on the basic dining plan for us.
So this year, I tried to stick to that, except for some weird ADR times due to party size.
Friday, the 19th is our arrival. Since we are flying standby, we never know when we are going to get there. We dont plan anything for this day and just eat quick service and usually swim and check out the resorts.
Saturday
Breakfast - Boatright @ Riverside
Lunch- Quick Service
Dinner- Kona for dinner
Sunday
Breakfast- Quick Service
Lunch- 9 for lunch at San Angel Inn
Dinner- 9 at the Coral Reef for dinner in the afternoon.
Monday
Breakfast- Chef Mickeys as a party of 5 for breakfast
Lunch- Quick Service
Dinner- Whispering Café for dinner as a party of 9.
Those three days are the days that we will meet up with my brother and his family in the parks and have some fun with them. That will leave them Tuesday and Wednesday to enjoy in the parks by themselves as a party of four. And we can split off and do our thing. We all figure by that time we will be tired of each other and kids will want their space, etc.
Tuesday
Breakfast -Norway with the princesses
Lunch Quick Service
Dinner- Dinner in Italy.
Wednesday
Breakfast- Playhouse Disney
Lunch- Quick Service
Dinner at the SCI FI
Thursday
Breakfast - Lilo and Stitch @ the Polynesian
Lunch - The Royal Table at the Castle.
Dinner- Quick Service
Friday
Breakfast- Whispering Canyon
Lunch- Quick Service
Dinner with Cindy and Prince Charming.
Whew! That is a lot of food! I seriously doubt that we are going to use all of our meal credits. And I still have some places I COULD try and schedule in more meals, but honestly, I dont want to spend my whole time sitting in front of food.
The one last thing I had to think about was dog watching. My mom agreed to watch our 70 lbs Golden Lab until she found out my brother was coming. Now she wants to come out on her days off. Honestly? Who could keep her from the grand kids. I havent seen them since my son was 8 months old. And that was the only time all of our kids have been together at once. We live in separate states and life happens. So when we make this kind of commitment, the rest of the family stops and says WHOA. LOL
So, now I am flying in a friend from Kansas to watch my dog for a few days while my mom MAY come out and stay a night or two so she can see the kids together. Who can pass up four adorable kids on Big Thunder Mountain, right?


September 19th through the 27th. We are taking advantage of the free dining.

This started off as a family of four vacation. My husband and I actually commented that this would be our first trip to Disney by our selves, as a family of four. This is my fifth trip to Disneyworld, my husbands fourth, and my kids third. I went the first time to DW when I was about 22, however, grew up going to Disneyland as we lived in California.
When my father offered us either 5 grand for a wedding or 5 grand for a honeymoon to Disneyworld, we opted for number two and then eloped.


Anyways, to the cast members:
First is myself.

Mark- We met while he was in the Marine Corps. He jokingly and lovely teases me that he was drinking a lot back then and that is why he missed that Winnie the Pooh shirt.

Last year, we went to have Breakfast with Mary Poppins and I actually cried when I saw her. He totally razzed me for weeks. Ugh, cant he just GET it??? That WAS Mary Poppins! COME ON!
Our daughter, Catie 8 years old

Our Son, Kevin 4 years old-

So we booked at the Sports and I started celebrating that we were going to have the cheapest vacation ever. LOL Then I started looking around, and reading trip reports, and read about the VIP guide. And thought, awesome! How cool is THAT. So I started leaning toward that.
Then I got a phone call from Hollie, my husbands niece. She just turned 19, works at Six Flags (again, that family!) and said she had quit another job and wanted to know when we were going to Disney. I had been talking to her for the past year about taking her. A few years ago her father died in a motorcycle wreck and my sister in law took her and her siblings in when their mother was too busy to care for them. She had never left the state before flying up to see us, and she is such a doll. I really wanted to do something nice for her. So since we already had a trip on the books, and free dining, why not this time?
So we called Disney back, and upgraded from the Sports to Riverside (again) because you cant stay in a value with 5 unless you get a suite. ( Honestly, I think this is a bit nuts. I mean, why not a roll away and charge me for it? When you book a party of 5, you are pretty limited on where you can stay. That is a little frustrating.)
So, now Hollie has joined us. Her first time to Disney anything. I am excited! Man! Disney with Hollie! My daughter is dancing around the living room and we are stoked. Mark is happy that we have another person to go in case he wants to: drum roll please: SLEEP.
So a week or so passes, and then I think about my brother. I had tried to talk him into going with us in February when we went, but money was tight. So I called him to let him know about the free dining. Oh! They already knew! They were thinking about going the week BEFORE us. OH NO! NO NO NO! You cant go THAT week. Well, he said that they were looking and for a party of four, it would cost them 4 grand to go. So they had backed out and decided not to go at all.
WHAT? So I asked him, to go where? Are you pricing Disneyland Paris???? Good Grief, brother! Call your family more often!
So I took a deep breath. Brother, oh dear brother who kicked me in the mouth and knocked out two of my teeth. What am I going to do with you?? Your MOTHER works for Delta airlines. Your brother in law works for Southwest. Why are you looking at buying plane tickets??? He said because I only thought buddy passes would apply to me. No no no! So, after another 15 to 20 minutes of explaining the flight benefits that his family has had for the last 7 YEARS, I told him Now. I have gotten you down to a 2,000 vacation. Is THAT doable?
His response was That is closer to it and then he asked about Park hoppers. Man, you dont HAVE to have park hoppers. I have found I dont use them when I have smaller kids. If I plan a little bit, just make my dining in that park or around that park, I am good. But I have a hard time paying 45 bucks a person just to park hop one time during the week. You know? I personally have found that I waste more time trying to drag small kids from one park to another, adding stress to their world and my mine.
Hey, I have a reservation at the castle for lunch I will give you for your girls if you will come!
Wow! You should work for Disney! You drive a hard bargain! Every time I talk to you I want to go to Disney World again.
Alas, the park hoppers were cancelled. They had to talk about it and would call me back. Ok, good. A week went by. OMgosh, I knew I was impatient but golly gee. Finally, he calls me back We have agreed to go. YESSSSSSSSSS!!!!
Now he wants to discuss what order to book his stuff in. Oh geez, dude, call up and pick a hotel and book it! It is FREE DINING. They book up fast! HURRY! Should they do Pop, music, sports? Mmm, doesnt matter. You arent going to be in the room that much. Take a family vote really quick and go for it. Over analyzing will kill you.
Four days later, they got on line and all the values were gone. So they had to shave off a day and book at the Caribbean. (Well, it wasnt from my lack of trying.) But at least they are going at the same time we were. So now, we are a party of 9!
Craig, my only other sibling is 5 years older than me. He is a forever dead head. A hippie born 20 year too late. He is now clean cut, and works in the white collar world, but by heart he would like to live off the land and breed fish and rock collect for the rest of his life. Extremely laid back and goes with the flow, however, is annoyed by the uptight and doesnt like to be rushed . Aka me! LOL. This is why we are polar opposites and never got along as children.
Randi, my sister in law. Love her. Is the perfect match for my brother. Has embraced him for all that he is. Again, loves to hike, fish, live off the land.
Jasmine 10 years old- The first grand child and has a wonderful personality. Very smart. She is named Jasmine, but not after Disney. I think more after the plant. Again, they are earthy people.
Amarine 7 years old- She is their last daughter. Randi and Craig jokingly call her the angry child. She doesnt like to be jacked with. And that is something my brother has always done. Jacked with you. So he teases her a lot to try and get her to lighten up. She isnt angry, she just doesnt seem to have a sense of humor about anything. She takes everything literally. I dont think she is a dreamer, like Caitlin and Jasmine are. She is just more matter of fact. Again, complete opposite of Jasmine.
Let me add that my brother and Randi also went to Disney World on their honeymoon. Randi, however, converted right over to being a Disney lover. Mark is still protesting.
So, now we are a Grand Gathering! YEAH!!!
Unfortunately, by the time everything fell into place, there were no grand gatherings tours left. Although I am calling often to check. Since we have now added some people to the party, I opted out of the VIP guide and have decided to upgrade us to the Dining Deluxe plan. This will be our first time using this option.
My brother and his family are still on dial up, bless their hearts. And up until now, have requested that pictures of their children not be on the internet. Did I mention that they are very simple people? Not really caring for keeping up with the technology of today? Which is fine with me.
I recently got permission to put pictures of them on our family web site which requires a password to get into. So I will check and see if trip reports are part of that. If not, I will use their pictures and just draw a big happy face over theirs. that way you can just imagine what they look like.
Well, with the change in Craigs dates, I get to keep the Cinderella Royal Table. I had made this reservation back when we were a party of four, and I cant get it changed to a party of 5. So I offered to let my husband go with the three kids ( I still call Hollie a kid even though she is 19) and I would go shopping or something else. He then replied Oh really? You want ME to go to the Castle??? Joy! I think there was a hint of sarcasm there.
Well, what do you want to do??
Sleep in!
Mark, it is at 2:00 in the afternoon! How can you sleep IN?
Really? You have to ask that?
I dont know. I dont think Kevin will really care where he is. He is still afraid of the characters but loves to go with Catie and Hollie. So I dont know if I should try and make an ADR for him and Mark and have Mark take him some where else. Or if I should just let Mark stay at the hotel that morning. However, we do have a breakfast ADR with Lilo and Stitch. So I am not sure what our plans are or what I should. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Our dining plans. Oh wow. Since my brother is sorta new to this, he has been to the World three times and they have never gotten the dining plan. So they arent quite clear how it works. I think they have to go through it first and then come out on the end going OOOHHHHH! I get it!
So I have tried to lead them. They are actually the type of vacationers ( like my husband) who want to sleep in, then spend an hour drinking coffee somewhere and then pull out the map and decide which PARK to go to. Where they are going to eat is not really something they think about. Having a child with Autism, our life hasnt been under the terms of Winging it for a long time. Our motto is Prepare for the worst, hope for the best. That seems to get us moving. So, I tried to explain to my brother that you CAN cancel an ADR if you wake up that day and decide that you arent hungry for that, or you dont feel like going over there. But, having had my ADRs and being a member of the Dis community, you definitely want to make them and then cancel them versus not having them at all and wishing you did.
So a few days later he calls me back to talk about some restaurants. All of our ADRs for a party of five were made. But I told him that on most we were flexible into changing to either a party of 9 or changing locations all together so we could meet up with them. We dont plan on being together all the time, just ride a few things and then split up and then ride a few other things together later.
He said Wow, not having park hoppers and then trying to make your ADRs months in advance takes some planning, doesnt it?
Yes, I know it is outside of your comfort zone, but you dont have to keep them if you decide that day you want to do something else. However, it is better to atleast have a plan since you are not getting park hoppers.
Then I proceeded to tell him about our trip 18 months ago with a party of 7 where I had all of our ADRs set up, and then we switch park days to cover someone who decided to stay longer. UGH. We were in the middle of Animal Kingdom when we needed to be over in Magic Kingdom for an ADR. What a NIGHT MARE. I learned from there that when I switch days, I switch ADRs or I dont switch parks at all. We wasted more time on those buses trying to get to and from our dining reservations.
So last year I learned by either making breakfast ADRs or Dinner ADRS out side of the parks. Only lunches did I do IN the parks. So we werent leaving the parks in the middle of the day to go hunt down a reservation. It really seemed to work best on the basic dining plan for us.
So this year, I tried to stick to that, except for some weird ADR times due to party size.
Friday, the 19th is our arrival. Since we are flying standby, we never know when we are going to get there. We dont plan anything for this day and just eat quick service and usually swim and check out the resorts.
Saturday
Breakfast - Boatright @ Riverside
Lunch- Quick Service
Dinner- Kona for dinner
Sunday
Breakfast- Quick Service
Lunch- 9 for lunch at San Angel Inn
Dinner- 9 at the Coral Reef for dinner in the afternoon.
Monday
Breakfast- Chef Mickeys as a party of 5 for breakfast
Lunch- Quick Service
Dinner- Whispering Café for dinner as a party of 9.
Those three days are the days that we will meet up with my brother and his family in the parks and have some fun with them. That will leave them Tuesday and Wednesday to enjoy in the parks by themselves as a party of four. And we can split off and do our thing. We all figure by that time we will be tired of each other and kids will want their space, etc.
Tuesday
Breakfast -Norway with the princesses
Lunch Quick Service
Dinner- Dinner in Italy.
Wednesday
Breakfast- Playhouse Disney
Lunch- Quick Service
Dinner at the SCI FI
Thursday
Breakfast - Lilo and Stitch @ the Polynesian
Lunch - The Royal Table at the Castle.
Dinner- Quick Service
Friday
Breakfast- Whispering Canyon
Lunch- Quick Service
Dinner with Cindy and Prince Charming.
Whew! That is a lot of food! I seriously doubt that we are going to use all of our meal credits. And I still have some places I COULD try and schedule in more meals, but honestly, I dont want to spend my whole time sitting in front of food.
The one last thing I had to think about was dog watching. My mom agreed to watch our 70 lbs Golden Lab until she found out my brother was coming. Now she wants to come out on her days off. Honestly? Who could keep her from the grand kids. I havent seen them since my son was 8 months old. And that was the only time all of our kids have been together at once. We live in separate states and life happens. So when we make this kind of commitment, the rest of the family stops and says WHOA. LOL
So, now I am flying in a friend from Kansas to watch my dog for a few days while my mom MAY come out and stay a night or two so she can see the kids together. Who can pass up four adorable kids on Big Thunder Mountain, right?