Should the Pope apologize??

[vickikoz]

No!!!no!!!no!!!

 

[Dr. DVC]

nope...he is the pope!

 

[bsnyder]

Reformation.

From within. Obviously it can be done.

Obviously - witness Christian history.

 

[sodaseller]

Speaking of heads in the sand:

Kevin Drum had an observation about this brand of satisfying small thought

Is this true? Harris gives the game away elsewhere in his piece, where he cites polls showing that 16% of the public believes in conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11. He's pretty sure this is evidence of liberal denial, but the same poll shows that 16% of the public also believes the government is withholding proof of the existence of intelligent life from others planets. Face it: there's a fringe group of Americans prone to believing conspiracy theories of all kinds, and the questions in the poll make it clear that active belief in 9/11 conspiracy theories is actually less widespread than plenty of others.

That kind of cherry picking makes Harris's essay deeply unserious. But Harris's second version of cherry picking is, perhaps, even worse: his belief that "liberals" continue to believe terrorism is caused solely by "economic despair, lack of education and American militarism." His evidence? It's hard to say, but apparently it's based on the letters he received after writing a polemic against religion called The End of Faith. But it should hardly come as a news flash that if you write a polemic you're going to hear polemics in return. The response to his book probably has no relevance at all to what "liberals" in general think.

In fact, it's sort of ironic that Harris chooses this particular time to make this point, because the conversation has moved on. Granted, I don't spend a lot of time hanging out with A.N.S.W.E.R. activists or participating in peace marches, but in the liberal circles I do participate in, virtually no one subscribes to the "economic despair" argument anymore. What we do believe is that the terrorists themselves — usually middle class and decently educated — are small in number and limited in capability unless they have broad support among the rest of the population. Without that support the creed of militant jihadism withers and dies.

It's that broad support that we need to target, and that's why we should focus our efforts on things like public diplomacy, economic engagement, and working seriously with multilateral institutions. It's not because liberals don't understand the threat, it's because liberals seem to be the only ones who do understand the threat these days — namely that public opinion in the Muslim world is our biggest problem, and conventional military action only makes this problem worse. Harris has some catching up to do if he wants to join the conversation.

If you want to be viewed as thinker, think. Posting peices like this doesn't advance that goal.

 

[sodaseller]

What I find interesting about this diverting desire to fiocus on the threat of Islam to the West is that it rests on the so called scholarship of a school of thought that by any exercise of the rationality that Benedict espoused should be deeply discredited. You are basically channeling a group that has been wrong about everything the last 6 years. And still you follow them.

The other interesting thing about Benedict's remarks, read in full, is that they track a line of reasoning which would not be especially palatable to American conservatism. I have seen it argued before at Hellenism conferences, and it attacks Islam as antirational, but usally adds American Protestant fundamentalism in the same breath. In the words of the modern Hellenists, and there is some historical support for what is first a counterintuitive argument, all of Western triumph is solely attributable to Greek thought. At it's most extreme (which I have witnessed), the Catholic Church is far from spared, as the "unrefined Latin" Crusaders are charged with weakeneing Constantinople before it fell to the Muslims (something Benedict omits). They also credit Rome as borrowing heavily from Hellenism to succeed, before it plunged Europe into the Dark Ages, which was rescued only by the Venetian Reniassance

 

[Charade]

Kevin Drum had an observation about this brand of satisfying small thought



If you want to be viewed as thinker, think. Posting pieces like this doesn't advance that goal.

Sorry, but I prefer to remain to be thought of as an ignoramus.

 

[louie694]

If you want to be viewed as thinker, think. Posting peices like this doesn't advance that goal.

seems an odd approach on your part to criticise the poster for posting an article written by another by in turn responding with an article written by someone else. rank hypocrisy doesn't mean that the hypocrite "ranks" in the military sense.

the silence on this thread from the leftists in attendence in response to the harris piece is a good signal that folks were rendered somewhat speechless by it.

it's easy to criticise me and others for posting exactly the same arguments that mr harris delivers, but it is near impossible to dismiss them when they come from a self-proclaimed proud liberal. the silence on the thread speaks volumes.

your approach is to smash every argument every iota of proof that supports the thesis of a threat from a growing islamist movement whose only goal is our destruction. your purpose in this is unfathomable. but this is the core of the conspiracy theorist, everything that is rational must be smashed and occams razor thrown out the window as the burden of proof that clearly lies with you can never ever be met by you.

sorry, it won't work this time. the liberals clearly look unbalanced and morally and ethically confused in all of this, especially when the confusion is so clearly illustrated by articles such as mr harris' and every day events across the world.

 

[Charade]

What I find interesting about this diverting desire to fiocus on the threat of Islam to the West is that it rests on the so called scholarship of a school of thought that by any exercise of the rationality that Benedict espoused should be deeply discredited. You are basically channeling a group that has been wrong about everything the last 6 years. And still you follow them.

Yanno, I can see, hear and read just fine. What I see, hear and read is when the Muslims hear something they believe is disrespectful of Islam, a large precentage of them go bonkers with a smaller subset going violent. It doesn't even matter what it is. True or not!

 

[sodaseller]

seems an odd approach on your part to criticise the poster for posting an article written by another by in turn responding with an article written by someone else. rank hypocrisy doesn't mean that the hypocrite "ranks" in the military sense.

the silence on this thread from the leftists in attendence in response to the harris piece is a good signal that folks were rendered somewhat speechless by it.

it's easy to criticise me and others for posting exactly the same arguments that mr harris delivers, but it is near impossible to dismiss them when they come from a self-proclaimed proud liberal. the silence on the thread speaks volumes.

your approach is to smash every argument every iota of proof that supports the thesis of a threat from a growing islamist movement whose only goal is our destruction. your purpose in this is unfathomable. but this is the core of the conspiracy theorist, everything that is rational must be smashed and occams razor thrown out the window as the burden of proof that clearly lies with you can never ever be met by you.

sorry, it won't work this time. the liberals clearly look unbalanced and morally and ethically confused in all of this, especially when the confusion is so clearly illustrated by articles such as mr harris' and every day events across the world.

Do you think the Harris piece is intellectually defensible? Do you think his reasoning is sound?

Are you going to yet exhibit some of the masterful reasoning you claim to be capable of but never display?

What is your thesis, your syllogism?

Since you are standing so proudly with Benedict, demonstrate some Aristotelian logic.

And I might add that the only raeson it is easy to criticize you is that your arguments don't stand up

 

[Charade]

Do you think the Harris piece is intellectually defensible? Do you think his reasoning is sound?

Are you going to yet exhibit some of the masterful reasoning you claim to be capable of but never display?

What is your thesis, your syllogism?

Since you are standing so proudly with Benedict, demonstrate some Aristotelian logic.

And I might add that the only reason it is easy to criticize you is that your arguments don't stand up

Put down and step S L O W L Y away from the Thesaurus.

 

[louie694]

Do you think the Harris piece is intellectually defensible? Do you think his reasoning is sound?

Are you going to yet exhibit some of the masterful reasoning you claim to be capable of but never display?

What is your thesis, your syllogism?

Since you are standing so proudly with Benedict, demonstrate some Aristotelian logic

you may not have noticed but i employ the socratic method in all of my arguments. yes, mr harris' article is highly defensible mainly because he is so correct. it certainly rattled you enough to go and troll the web for a counterargument as you could not formulate one yourself.

my thesis is clear. if you want to know what it is just review any of my posts.

my syllogism? none of my posts are syllogistic (i know, go look it up!)

i stood with pope benedict until he backed off in the face of islamist criticism which is exactly what they wanted him to do. this is another victory for them, and a defeat for all of us in the civilized sectors of the universe.

your obtuseness is bizarre. you seem a well-educated person, why you cannot put 2 and 2 together to make 4 is most distressing. as a conspiracy theorist you put 2 and 2 together and get 7 then go on the hunt to find out who messed up mathematics and the foundations of the world!

the fact that there are conspiracy theorists on 911 and ufos gives no legitimacy to either issue. the facts are apart from those who try to make sense of them. you do not formulate this discussion, the facts do. and unfortunately you ignore facts as they undermine your theories.

 

[sodaseller]

Yanno, I can see, hear and read just fine. What I see, hear and read is when the Muslims hear something they believe is disrespectful of Islam, a large percentage of them go bonkers with a smaller subset going violent. It doesn't even matter what it is. True or not!

Is that true? How do you know? Do you not see the parallel - both sides incited to frothing, but in both cases a small percentage. Read Amy Wellborn's collection of links at Link and Link And she's one of you.

Look, we all have a choice in the world - to build or to destroy. There are those like Anjem Choudary, louie/Kendra, bet, Dawn and such, that seek to destroy. But there are children of Light as well, as in Amy's links. We all have a choice

 

[bsnyder]

Kevin Drum had an observation about this brand of satisfying small thought



If you want to be viewed as thinker, think. Posting peices like this doesn't advance that goal.

Yeah, I read Drum before I posted it. And noticed that he didn't come close to addressing the substance of the piece. Plus, he had a glaring error in the first paragraph you chose to quote.

....where he cites polls showing that 16% of the public believes in conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11

If you had bothered to follow the link to the actual poll, you'd find it states that:

Thirty-six percent of respondents overall said it is "very likely" or "somewhat likely" that federal officials either participated in the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon or took no action to stop them "because they wanted the United States to go to war in the Middle East."

Kevin either made a mistake, or he's being deliberately dishonest. You post a piece by him that isn't correct on the facts, and doesn't make a serious attempt to address Harris's charges and then throw out a personal insult.

Gee, what a thinker you are!

 

[Charade]

Is that true? How do you know? Do you not see the parallel - both sides incited to frothing, but in both cases a small percentage. Read Amy Wellborn's collection of links at Link and Link And she's one of you.

Look, we all have a choice in the world - to build or to destroy. There are those like Anjem Choudary, louie/Kendra, bet, Dawn and such, that seek to destroy. But there are children of Light as well, as in Amy's links. We all have a choice

What do you mean "how do I know"? I see it. And no, there is not a parallel. At least in my opinion. You seem to be implying that because they might be warning of an impending approach of locusts they should do it in a different manner. I see extreme concern in their posts, not desperate panic. You seem to see neither.

And yes, I do agree that we can either build or destroy. It's my opinion that if left to their own accord, the Muslims will continue to seek destruction.

I don't see Kendra, Louie , Bet or Dawn as destroyers. To each his own I guess.

 

[bsnyder]

Put down and step S L O W L Y away from the Thesaurus.

 

[bsnyder]

I don't see Kendra, Louie , Bet or Dawn as destroyers. To each his own I guess.

Thanks, Charade! Personally, I think the parallels to Anjem Choudary are a bit overblown.

Let's just chalk it up to Sodaseller's frequent need to demonize anyone who disagrees with him. And he complains about "incited to frothing"? (Where DOES he come up with these ridiculously awkward phrases?)

I think he needs to wipe that froth from his own mouth.

 

[What the Heck]

Bottom line, should the Pope apologize? Absolutely not. He was quoting someone, not using his own words. He has already come as close as he needs by saying he should have used a different quote.

To use this to justify shootings, burnings, bombings is ludicrous. There are a lot more damnable Fatwahs that come out of Islam from this century (yes they do have people that serve as the focus for their religion), yet some are offended because the Pope quoted someone from, what, 8 centuries before? Where was the condemnation from the Islamic world when Bin Laden perverted his religion by stating (paraphrasing) that all people are targets in Holy Jihad? Where were the calls for him to apologize from the moderate Muslims?

 

[fabshelly]

I want to help you out on this one because it is a valid question. There is a perfectly good and clear answer that I will make very brief so that your limited attention span can attempt to grasp it.

Here it is:

Ready:

WE HAVE NO OTHER OPTION!!!

Changing a debased barbaric culture that has been propagandized for generations does not happen overnight, nor does it happen in 3 years. Your lack of historical context and lack of patience on these matters of global importance is truly impressive.

I always complain about the lack of moderate voices in the Islamic world, well, guess what, they're all in Baghdad trying to form a democratic state with our help!!

We have no option. None. We cannot change them from the outside, and they have no interest in changing from the inside. All they want to do is conquer us, convert us, kill us, etc. We can't negotiate with such people as there is only one negotiation that can occur and has always failed.

Here is the negotiation that has always failed.

USA: Please stop blowing us up, please stop killing our civilians, please stop attacking our planes and interests around the world. Gosh, we'll even help you build infrastructure in your failed states so that your people won't want to overthrow all of you dictators and tyrants.
Arab/Islamic World: No. Allahu-akbar!

So, you see, I think, if you have the capacity to see anything, that the situation leaves us with few options.

Go ahead, repost! Ready!

As an Ameican, I'd just like to say it's RICH that any one of us is calling any other culture on EARTH debased and barbaric.

 

[Mamu]

With each passing day I become more troubled about the violence thats spread around the world.

Where's the outcry and condemnation of evil. You cannot teach HATE and expect LOVE. You cannot teach VIOLENCE and expect PEACE. Why isn't the Islamic World protesting the teaching of HATE and VIOLENCE.

They sit back and allow innocent men, women and children to be murdered for some cause, yet when a Catholic Pope quotes something, they protest with violence.

There's something wrong with this picture, when words mean more then a life.

No I don't think the Pope should apologize.

The taking of a life is wrong, for whatever cause, and there should be no exceptions. Violence is never the answer.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Where are you getting the idea my anti-religious opinion is confined solely to Catholicism or Christianity?

Ok, so you are hostile to anyone who believes differently than you. That must make you very proud.