Should a child be penalized for a parent's behavior?

[Lisa loves Pooh]

If part of joining ANYTHING includes a family responsibilty to help carry the weight of whatever is required to do that anything...then yes, a child should be "punished" so to speak absent a valid reason.

My children had to be extremely punctual for a dance thing and while they understand exceptions (i.e. one time my morning sickness manifested as we were leaving our house and blowing us showing up on time)--I told my children that if I'm late, I take the heat--if they are late, I let their teachers know that they were the reason for the delay.

Anyway--if I agree to whatever is mandatory, then any excuses I have as a parent who is always late or never does this or is always whatever...doesn't fly. I have no business signing my child up for something that I cannot fulfill the obligations that are fully within my control.

And if an activity occurs during normal working hours, then the parent should consider that before signing them up.

As far as schedules, we were doing rec soccer--and the soccer (county) field could only be used sunrise to sunset. So practices were a bit difficult during daylight savings time (winter months) b/c the sun sets so early. So they would schedule things earlier. (but IME, for the younger groups, there was more flexibiltiy. Once you got to U10 though, they got a bit more strict and then parents would help each other out with carpooling so that their child would make it to practice.

 

[castleview]

Like many, I say it depends.

Regarding teacher's gifts, I would never NOT allow a child to sign his name because the parent didn't contribute. Plus, I've been in situations where the teacher gift is extremely expensive and it just wasn't right to expect all the students to afford that much.

As far as playing time goes, I'm all for letting the kids who show up on time start. Someone has to learn punctuality and if the parent doesn't figure it out, hopefully it will be a life lesson for the kid.

Where this "punish child for parents" issue gets muddy for me is where help and letting things slide veer into entitlements and plain old taking advantage of. I've seen lunch ladies get mad at kids because the parent never pays the lunch bill. Of course they still feed the kid. I've paid for a kid's registration for baseball and soccer (the anonymous pot) so they could play. However, I do think some parents know that someone will always cover their kids and have no shame about letting someone else be charitable. No I don't think it should be taken out on the kid, but sometime I feel like I'm enabling the parent.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

My school has a good example of a time when it is NOT appropriate. They blackmail us into attending PTO meetings by creating dress-down days that are ONLY for those children whose parents attend the meetings. So if the special dress-down day is on Friday, the whole school now knows that little Johnny has "deadbeat" parents because he is the only one in his class wearing his uniform that day.

I hate this policy with the heat of a white-hot sun, but they have been doing this for decades now, and most parents apparently don't have an issue with it, because I've never been able to find anyone else willing to co-sign a complaint about it.

Also just FTR, there is absolutely NO WAY that I would let my child sign up for a regular activity if the schedule of attendance was not laid out at the time he signed up, and if that schedule conflicted with both DH' and my work hours. That just is not do-able at our house.

I'm not sure it is fair to call the parents deadbeats without knowing their circumstance.

Unless the school MANDATES PTO attendance that is...

If it is completely OPTIONAL, but then the school takes a creative approach to increase attendance, it does not make someone a deadbeat if they still choose not to attend something that is mandatory.

As you say it is blackmail--but the child isn't being "punished"....he's just the one not receiving the "reward".

My mom was military and did not attend many things while I was growing up. She had a long commute most times so by the time she got home, there would be no time to feed us and no childcare options so that she coudl attend a voluntary event. If it was mandatory--or something maybe that I was in, like a school play--more effort would be made. But she simply couldn't attend all non-mandatory functions at a public school.

I'm sure many parents thought my mom was a deadbeat. And while my mom has had an interesting life with questionable choices, it still woudln't be appropriate to call her a deadbeat, b/c out of all her mistakes--ignoring her children's education was not one of them.

 

[castleview]

I'm not sure it is fair to call the parents deadbeats without knowing their circumstance.

Unless the school MANDATES PTO attendance that is...

If it is completely OPTIONAL, but then the school takes a creative approach to increase attendance, it does not make someone a deadbeat if they still choose not to attend something that is mandatory.

As you say it is blackmail--but the child isn't being "punished"....he's just the one not receiving the "reward".

My mom was military and did not attend many things while I was growing up. She had a long commute most times so by the time she got home, there would be no time to feed us and no childcare options so that she coudl attend a voluntary event. If it was mandatory--or something maybe that I was in, like a school play--more effort would be made. But she simply couldn't attend all non-mandatory functions at a public school.

I'm sure many parents thought my mom was a deadbeat. And while my mom has had an interesting life with questionable choices, it still woudln't be appropriate to call her a deadbeat, b/c out of all her mistakes--ignoring her children's education was not one of them.

I'm a SAHM for most of the year and I still can't make all school functions. Many parents can't make scheduled PTO meetings, but still help out in some way by doing the newsletter, chaperone a field trip or volunteering for just one event. I know everyone's circumstances are different, but I've been witness to many people complaining as if they are the only busy people in the world and that drives me crazy. From what I've discovered, the baseball coach and the PTO president have no more time than you and I to help out and get involved. Somehow, they just do though.

 

[wdwfan16]

For the card the kid's name should not be left out.

For little league, I agree. If you sign up for a sport you know the rules. If you cannot follow them then it would be best to not sign up. I would probably let it slide on if was an exception and not the rule for this family.

 

[NotUrsula]

Did you miss the quotes around "deadbeat"?

I'm sure that no one is actually calling parents deadbeats, I was merely using that word as tongue-in-cheek shorthand for "parent who does not take the school involvement expectation seriously enough." The more common word (that the kids will normally use) is "slacker." BTW, this is a private school.

The thing about using dress-down days this way is that the kids don't look at it as a privilege; they look at it as a given that on a dress-down day you dress down, and they consider it punishment to be required to wear their uniforms when everyone else is wearing jeans. In the higher grades the kids who are not in uniform tease the ones who are; there are lots of cracks about having "slackers" for parents.

The really offensive part AFAIAC is that the teachers are always given lists of which families had parents in attendance so that they can police the dress-down days, and the teachers invariably develop a subtle attitude about it. For instance, it will almost always be casually mentioned when you attend your parent-teacher conference. The kids whose names are always on the list are regarded as being from "fine families" while those whose parents do not or cannot attend start to be treated as somehow pitiable.

 

[mjkacmom]

I think so. I'm a SAHM, but I have a lot of kids in a lot of different activties (this Saturday, we have 2 baseball games and 1 softball game at exactly the same time at 3 different fields). Ds11 is on 3 teams, ds7 and dd7 on 2 teams, and dd9 dances 9 hours a week. Are they there on time - yep! Is it a constant struggle - yep!

I work on my carpooling schedule on a daily basis, and it's rare that I have just my kids in my van. If I know there is a conflict, we don't sign up.

 

[jrmasm]

As long as everyone has the same rules, I really don't see a problem with it. Late is late. And life is not fair.

 

[mjkacmom]

i would be talking to the area organizers for the sport and asking why there's no schedual given out for parents to evaluate prior to signing kids up.

realisticly, with these types of sports the games have been schedualed months in advance so that the sports fields can be reserved and officiating staff can be schedualed, so there's not excuse for a group to not be able to provide that information and their expectations for the time of arrival of the participants beforehand.

with any kind of activity my kids have done in recent years there's been a kind of contract included with the registration paperwork, the parent signs aknowledging that they are obligated to ensure the child's arrival on time, and regular attendance-and what the penalties to the child are for failing to do so (and what financial penalties the parent might incur), for the child it's similar and it also says that they know that if they don't arrive on time/fail to attend what the penalties are.

we don't sign any of these kinds of contracts unless we know in advance what the schedual is-and i suspect that unless there's more kids that want to do a particular activity or sport than a group actualy needs, if the parents took a hard line about this and refused to let their kids sign up without advance notice, these groups would find dwindling enrollment and end up providing what they should be in the first place.

We're never given schedules when we sign up (and with our parks and rec, trust me, the games are not scheduled months in advance - softball starts in 2 days, and the schedules were finished yesterday ). Practice times are at the discretion of the coaches, and their work schedules. Fields are limited, so it's a scramble, and you get what you get. Softball practice was at 4, so the working parents just found parents to take their kids - no big deal.

 

[nmmom95]

As someone who is almost always late, I make sure that we are at activities on time. While it might not be fair that the kids are penalized, if that's the case, the parent needs to find a way to make it happen, whether that is a carpool, or in my case, just getting my act together.
My DS12 is freakishly punctual like my DH and my DS6 is more laid back, like me. Since I don't want to pass on my bad habits, I really make a effort for them to be on time. I usually succeed.

 

[barkley]

with the organized activites i understand that there are time constraints (when sports fields or gathering places are available, when staff that's mandatory to be there is available) but i have to say when it comes to some of the stuff with the schools, i'm on the same page with those that have expressed frustration over it.

at one of the schools my kids went to (private) the school was always complaining about the lousy turnout at pto type things. they tried all kinds of incentives to get people there. the reality was they never took the time to look at the demographics of their student body. the bulk were enrolled b/c the place offered afterschool care till 6 pm. the parents were largly commuters who picked up right at 6. always schedualing the pto meetings at 7, and telling parents they could not stay on property from 6-7. by the time a parent picked up, an hour was not enough time to get their child home, and fed to be back to the school. so the only option was picking your kid up and spending money to eat out (which inevitably had to be fast food b/c no restaurant could get you seated and out in time). parents who had other kids at home or in daycares were in a no-win situation. but the school never looked to that and never considered doing the meetings a bit later, or even polling the parents to see if better attendance could be achieved through maybe a less frequent but longer in duration weekend day meeting. their pto attendance was never good.


at the school ds attends (again private) the parents made themselves heard after last school year. the issue was'nt pto meetings, but "concerts". the school traditionaly did one around christmas. the issue was that the kid's would'nt get home till around 4 or 4:30 in december, and b/c the weathers bad here in december they always wanted to do concerts as early as possible so we had been dealing with requirements to get the kids back for a 6:30 concert by 5:30 (and some parents, even in good weather live 45 minutes from the school). it was a no-win. the working parents were always late in getting the kids there, the sahm parents were often late due to trying to get some kind of food in the kids, getting them dressed and arriving-everyone hated these events and attendance by family was minimal at best.

after bringing these issues to the school, the school opted out of the december concert this year. instead they did a spring concert AFTER the time change. the concert was set for 7 p.m., and the school said only the kids in the band had to be there by 6:30, with the younger ones arriving by 6:40. NOONE WAS LATE working parents were easily able to get their kids there on time, sahp's appreciated having the extra time to arrive. it was tremendously well attended by family who did'nt have all kinds of other committments.


based on it's success i suspect it will become the norm in coming years (and oh yes, one other change that was made-the parents complained that if a child is required to be in one of these concerts, or if a pto meeting is schedualed and they want as many parents as possible to attend-LIMIT OR ELIMINATE homework for that night. all the parents were unanamous in their opinion that it was insane with only an hour or so between a child arriving home and either they/parent to be back at the school, with arriving back home at 9 at the earliest, for anykind of homework to be successfuly accomplished).

 

[Erin1700]

I am just dealing with this same issue!

My dd swims and is required to attend 3 out of 5 scheduled practices a week. I take her to 4 practices. But on 1 of those days, I can only get her there right on time because I watch kids at my house and the last child is not picked up until 5:20. The coach wants them there at 5:25 and practice is at 5:30. So we are all ready to go as soon as the child is picked up. It is usually 5:30 when we are walking in the door.
A lot of kids are late to practice everyday and when they do show up, they dilly dally getting in the water.
So the coach has been yelling that there is no reason for any of the kids to be late, she doesnt want to hear there was traffic, etc. As of now there is no punishment for the kids who are late. I really dont know what to do, because on at least one day a week, it is physically impossible for me to get her there before 5:30.
(my dh commutes to work so it is rare that he can be home to take her, and sometimes I can get my dad to help, but he can not always do it).

 

[mamacatnv]

I am just dealing with this same issue!

My dd swims and is required to attend 3 out of 5 scheduled practices a week. I take her to 4 practices. But on 1 of those days, I can only get her there right on time because I watch kids at my house and the last child is not picked up until 5:20. The coach wants them there at 5:25 and practice is at 5:30. So we are all ready to go as soon as the child is picked up. It is usually 5:30 when we are walking in the door.
A lot of kids are late to practice everyday and when they do show up, they dilly dally getting in the water.
So the coach has been yelling that there is no reason for any of the kids to be late, she doesnt want to hear there was traffic, etc. As of now there is no punishment for the kids who are late. I really dont know what to do, because on at least one day a week, it is physically impossible for me to get her there before 5:30.
(my dh commutes to work so it is rare that he can be home to take her, and sometimes I can get my dad to help, but he can not always do it).

When my daycare provider had to get her kids to soccer practice before my scheduled arrival time, I would meet her at the field to retrieve my DD.

 

[taximomfor4]

I have seen several pp's blame the coach for the early time, and say they schedule it around their own job. I just want to offer some info, my dh coaches Little League. He volunteered for the position 2 months ago. At the draft, he was given a list of times the field is available for his practices. He was told he could choose one weekday time slot, and one weekend one. NONE of the times are very late, because of when dusk hits. They had to fit 2 time slots onto each weekday, to accomadate all the teams (5-6:30 and 6:30-8). By the time it was dh's turn to pick a weekend slot, the BEST still available was 9am on Sunday. Dh was really worried about families fitting that in with church and all.

The games: this age division gets ZERO weekend games. All weekdays. They have to fit 2 games onto each field in the weekday evening. So Yep, SOMEONE is gonna have a game earlier than some working parents would like.

DH has coached baseball for years and years, at different levels. He will definitely have some sort of consequence for tardiness. Or more accurately, he will certainly reward punctuality and presence at more practice time. And so that he doesn't have problems during batting order, kids who aren't there when warmups start are put at the bottom of the order as they arrive, I think I remember.

 

[castleview]

I have seen several pp's blame the coach for the early time, and say they schedule it around their own job.

Unless the coach is crazy and shouldn't be working with kids, I won't complain about him or the way he does things. He's giving his time and I'm not.

 

[Mkrop]

I have seen several pp's blame the coach for the early time, and say they schedule it around their own job. I just want to offer some info, my dh coaches Little League. He volunteered for the position 2 months ago. At the draft, he was given a list of times the field is available for his practices. He was told he could choose one weekday time slot, and one weekend one. NONE of the times are very late, because of when dusk hits. They had to fit 2 time slots onto each weekday, to accomadate all the teams (5-6:30 and 6:30-8). By the time it was dh's turn to pick a weekend slot, the BEST still available was 9am on Sunday. Dh was really worried about families fitting that in with church and all.

The games: this age division gets ZERO weekend games. All weekdays. They have to fit 2 games onto each field in the weekday evening. So Yep, SOMEONE is gonna have a game earlier than some working parents would like.

DH has coached baseball for years and years, at different levels. He will definitely have some sort of consequence for tardiness. Or more accurately, he will certainly reward punctuality and presence at more practice time. And so that he doesn't have problems during batting order, kids who aren't there when warmups start are put at the bottom of the order as they arrive, I think I remember.

DH coached up until this year although he still helps, but he had no control over the schedule, sometime it was a struggle for him to get there in time himself, thank goodness his assitant got done work at 3 so he was always there to get things started.

DH understood his own issues of getting there timely and he did not make the kids suffer, they all played equal amounts, he would make the lineup as to when they arrived. After a couple of practices he kind of knew which kids were arriving late and they would play the later innings, but they all got equal playing time.

 

[padams]

DS played a club soccer game a few years ago in which the opposing team started the game with 5 players (kids were playing 8 v 8). The team had 5 more players on the sidelines. The referee called out the coach and said he had to play more than 5. The coach responded that he was tired of players being late to practice, and he wanted his team to understand the repercussions. He had told the players that if they were not on time for practice, then they wouldn't start in the game. The ref relented, and the game began. After 5 minutes, and with his team down 2 goals already, the coach fielded a full team. We could hear him at half time telling his team, "See what a difference 5 minutes makes." The game ended up being close. The other team could have won, particularly if they had started with a full team.

DS still mentions this game several years later whenever the topic of being on time comes up.

 

[jrmasm]

DH coached up until this year although he still helps, but he had no control over the schedule, sometime it was a struggle for him to get there in time himself, thank goodness his assitant got done work at 3 so he was always there to get things started.

DH understood his own issues of getting there timely and he did not make the kids suffer, they all played equal amounts, he would make the lineup as to when they arrived. After a couple of practices he kind of knew which kids were arriving late and they would play the later innings, but they all got equal playing time.

No matter how difficult it may be, I get my kids to their practices and games on time. Nothing ticks me off more than a late coach.

Everyone made a commitment to the team. Everyone needs to do everything they can to honor it.

 

[Bren's Mom]

I feel that it's MY responsibility to know what the 'rules' are before signing ds up for anything. If the rule is arriving at 5pm, then I would state upfront to the organizers that I work until 4:30pm and that the earliest I can get him there, with no traffic problems, is 5:30pm. If they are ok with that before I enroll him, then NO, they cannot penalize him. If they say no, then I don't enroll him. I can't be in two places at once. Or I enroll him if I can make alternate arrangements.

If this were a school team, I'd surely take up the time with the school/board of ed because this would be a problem for many working parents I'd assume...and kids with working parents shouldn't be penalized by the school in this way either.

As for class gifts...everyone's name should go on it. Period.

 

[Mkrop]

No matter how difficult it may be, I get my kids to their practices and games on time. Nothing ticks me off more than a late coach.

Everyone made a commitment to the team. Everyone needs to do everything they can to honor it.

I understand your frustration. He would always hustle to get their on time but his job had to come before LL,a client does not want to hear that I have to leave to coach baseball. And yes we were very fortunate like I mentioned that his asst was usually able to get things started, if he was running late or could not be there at all. He made it very clear to the League that his job was not a local 9-5 gig. He works in sales and can be anywhere at any given day. He was upfront when they asked him to manage the team. Since they were short managers they were ok with it.

My DH always said the key to coaching is to have a great asst. This guy did not want to manage, so DH (and me but that is another thread LOL) handled it.

He did not penalize the kids ever for being late.