Separating school discipline from home...

[mumom95]

I agree, but it doesn't always reflect on the parenting. I have a child who literally is perfect - to the extend that even her friends' parents are amazed. She's kind, gentle, a real people pleaser. She doesn't argue, she doesn't whine. I'm dreading her teen years, because I suspect she is going to be the worst.

I also have a ds who seems to constantly be in trouble (little things). He has a temper, impulse control issues, and get get riled up easily. He's had the same parenting as his sister (well, with a LOT more discipline and punishments, of course). They're just wired very differently.

I also have one that, after many years of getting calls from the school (a couple phone calls each year), that completely turned it around, and now is total rule follower, and goes out of her way not to get in trouble. I remember once when she was very exhausted (in a play), and I offered to call the school, and say she was sick. She was horrified!

I agree, I'd even argue it has a lot more to do with nature than the nuturing.

But when you have a child that naturally tends to buck authority or break the rules, then you have to work on fixing that. And sometimes the parent does everything they can to fix the issues and it still isn't enough. But that's not the problem with the OP. The OP doesn't want to be bothered with trying to fix her son's issues. She thinks it's the school's job. That's what I disagree with. Little things happen all the time with all kids and most teachers do a fine job with handling it in class. But when you have a kid who is breaking the rules multiple times a day, multiple days a week, it's the parent's responsibility to handle it.

 

[NHdisneylover]

Truthfully, the school shouldn't have to discipline your child. Your child should not be doing anything that requires discipline. Your son misbehaving is not the subs fault. Teach your kid to behave and listen to whoever the authority figure is in the classroom. There are lots of 5 year olds that can do this, there is no reason your son can't be one of them. You can make every excuse in the book, the sub has no control, etc, but it all comes down to the simple fact that your son should not be misbehaving.

It's a paren't job to teach their child how to act in public. If they are not acting correctly in public, it's the parent's responsibility to correct the behavior and teach them proper behavior. Maybe if parents would take more time and do this, teachers could spend more time on what they are supposed to be doing, teaching our kids academics.

I agree with this 100%

OP--I keep seeing posts from you where you say a 5 year old cannot connect their actions with a punishment later in the day or a 5 year old does not have the self control to behave in class (half day Kindergarten?), etc. 5 year olds ABSOLUTELY can behave in class, remember a misbehavior and understand that a later punishment is for it, etc. I truly believe a good chunk of your son's issues (based on these posts) is your low expectations for him--you hold him to a level more appropriate of a 2 or 3 year old than to a school age child.

 

[postage stamp]

My daughter is 5.

Her second week of Kindergarten she came home and was upset that her class didn't get to have a puppet show that day like they were supposed to. When I asked her why she said it was because most of the kids wouldn't calm down, be quiet, and listen.

She thought I'd feel bad for her. HA! Boy are you wrong there sister! I'm on your teacher's team. She's one woman against 24 5 year olds. She needs all the help she can get!

 

[NHdisneylover]

My daughter is 5.

Her second week of Kindergarten she came home and was upset that her class didn't get to have a puppet show that day like they were supposed to. When I asked her why she said it was because most of the kids wouldn't calm down, be quiet, and listen.

She thought I'd feel bad for her. HA! Boy are you wrong there sister! I'm on your teacher's team. She's one woman against 24 5 year olds. She needs all the help she can get!

SO, I am truly curious here as I do not know if OPs perceptions are the norm now or not, do YOU as the parent of a 5 year old yourself believe that a 5 year old can be expected to behave at school even if other kids are not? And do you believe that a 5 year old can remember why she got in trouble earlier in the day and connect an at home consequence to the behaviour?

 

[postage stamp]

SO, I am truly curious here as I do not know if OPs perceptions are the norm now or not, do YOU as the parent of a 5 year old yourself believe that a 5 year old can be expected to behave at school even if other kids are not? And do you believe that a 5 year old can remember why she got in trouble earlier in the day and connect an at home consequence to the behaviour?

WITHOUT QUESTION.

If my five year old can recall things that happened days, weeks, months, or years ago she can certainly recall something that happened hours ago. She's a child, not a dog.

Does no one give the 'Well if so-and-so jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge does that mean you should too" talk anymore?

I don't give a flying fart in space WHAT other kids are doing in the class, my child knows the difference between right and wrong. Do I expect her to ALWAYS be able to adhere to that? In all honesty, no. She's not perfect. She'll get sucked into doing things by other kids or by other temptations. She may get a wild hair up her butt that she has to do something she shouldn't. She may be having a bad day. Who knows or cares why. She'll misbehave, she'll break rules.

But just because I KNOW that someday she'll do that does NOT make it acceptable. And It's my job as a parent to teach her that it's not acceptable. To teach her how to resist it. To teach her that there are consequences for each and every one of her actions. Some good, some bad.

 

[Ceila]

SO, I am truly curious here as I do not know if OPs perceptions are the norm now or not, do YOU as the parent of a 5 year old yourself believe that a 5 year old can be expected to behave at school even if other kids are not? And do you believe that a 5 year old can remember why she got in trouble earlier in the day and connect an at home consequence to the behaviour?

I'm not the poster you are asking, but I'd like to respond as a parent of kids who weren't in K too long ago and as an educator. My kids are in 3rd and 6th grades, and I did a long-term sub assignment in an elementary school not long ago. Plus I volunteered at my kids' school for years as a library helper.

Typical 5-year-olds can absolutely be counted on to behave most of the time. Every child can "have a moment," of course. But generally they can behave, and many of them will behave even if others in the class are clowning around.

As a parent, I can tell you that kids, including 5-year-olds, are also perfectly capable of recalling an incident that happened during school.

 

[LuluLovesDisney]

WITHOUT QUESTION.

If my five year old can recall things that happened days, weeks, months, or years ago she can certainly recall something that happened hours ago. She's a child, not a dog.

Does no one give the 'Well if so-and-so jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge does that mean you should too" talk anymore?

I don't give a flying fart in space WHAT other kids are doing in the class, my child knows the difference between right and wrong. Do I expect her to ALWAYS be able to adhere to that? In all honesty, no. She's not perfect. She'll get sucked into doing things by other kids or by other temptations. She may get a wild hair up her butt that she has to do something she shouldn't. She may be having a bad day. Who knows or cares why. She'll misbehave, she'll break rules.

But just because I KNOW that someday she'll do that does NOT make it acceptable. And It's my job as a parent to teach her that it's not acceptable. To teach her how to resist it. To teach her that there are consequences for each and every one of her actions. Some good, some bad.

I love this.

 

[NHdisneylover]

WITHOUT QUESTION.

If my five year old can recall things that happened days, weeks, months, or years ago she can certainly recall something that happened hours ago. She's a child, not a dog.

Does no one give the 'Well if so-and-so jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge does that mean you should too" talk anymore?

I don't give a flying fart in space WHAT other kids are doing in the class, my child knows the difference between right and wrong. Do I expect her to ALWAYS be able to adhere to that? In all honesty, no. She's not perfect. She'll get sucked into doing things by other kids or by other temptations. She may get a wild hair up her butt that she has to do something she shouldn't. She may be having a bad day. Who knows or cares why. She'll misbehave, she'll break rules.

But just because I KNOW that someday she'll do that does NOT make it acceptable. And It's my job as a parent to teach her that it's not acceptable. To teach her how to resist it. To teach her that there are consequences for each and every one of her actions. Some good, some bad.

Then you and I think much alike I also know my kids will mess up once in a while--I would be crazy not to believe that; however I would be even crazier to not come down on them when they do misbehave--because then they would learn that misbehaving is okay which is not what my job as a parent is all about.
Anyway, thanks for the answer--sometimes I really do wonder if prevailing opinions have changed so dramatically in just a few years or if we just see a few very vocal people for the far side of parenting norms on the DIS.

I'm not the poster you are asking, but I'd like to respond as a parent of kids who weren't in K too long ago and as an educator. My kids are in 3rd and 6th grades, and I did a long-term sub assignment in an elementary school not long ago. Plus I volunteered at my kids' school for years as a library helper.

Typical 5-year-olds can absolutely be counted on to behave most of the time. Every child can "have a moment," of course. But generally they can behave, and many of them will behave even if others in the class are clowning around.

As a parent, I can tell you that kids, including 5-year-olds, are also perfectly capable of recalling an incident that happened during school.

Oh, I taught too and have two kids of my own. Like you, I KNOW kids htis age can behave themselves and can connect a consequence at home with behaviour at school. I am just trying to figure out if there has been a large scale shift in perceptions among parents about what is reasonable to expect from children that age or if just a few posters lately have not been representative of the norm.

 

[postage stamp]

I love this.

Thank you. because honestly sometimes I feel like I'm insane for expecting my children to behave themselves.

 

[Hannathy]

Thank you. because honestly sometimes I feel like I'm insane for expecting my children to behave themselves.

You aren't! I said the exact same thing many pages back in this thread,near the start, said the kid was 5 not 2 and that is when she came on to defend her child and several posters chimed in saying how he couldn't be expected to behave the poor thing was upset. LOL

My kids knew from toddlerhood on that public behavior was expected and nothing less would be tolerated. they could have trouble in school, need help with subjects BUT they could not misbehave!! ever.

I also don't believe that the kids are that upset that the teacher is gone, they only had her for a month not like years or even all year. more excuses for a child who is not behaving. At my kids school for being as bad as he is he would be sitting in the Principals office and Mom would be making a trip in to speak to them.

 

[NHdisneylover]

Thank you. because honestly sometimes I feel like I'm insane for expecting my children to behave themselves.

You aren't! I said the exact same thing many pages back in this thread,near the start, said the kid was 5 not 2 and that is when she came on to defend her child and several posters chimed in saying how he couldn't be expected to behave the poor thing was upset. LOL

My kids knew from toddlerhood on that public behavior was expected and nothing less would be tolerated. they could have trouble in school, need help with subjects BUT they could not misbehave!! ever.

I also don't believe that the kids are that upset that the teacher is gone, they only had her for a month not like years or even all year. more excuses for a child who is not behaving. At my kids school for being as bad as he is he would be sitting in the Principals office and Mom would be making a trip in to speak to them.

I am so happy to see you two posting. I find myself reading here and wondering if attitudes have really changed that much or if the opinions here are skewed and I am taking great comfort in seeing other parents who expect their kids to behave or else meet with consequences (from their parents even).

 

[mybabesuz]

I agree, I'd even argue it has a lot more to do with nature than the nuturing.

But when you have a child that naturally tends to buck authority or break the rules, then you have to work on fixing that. And sometimes the parent does everything they can to fix the issues and it still isn't enough. But that's not the problem with the OP. The OP doesn't want to be bothered with trying to fix her son's issues. She thinks it's the school's job. That's what I disagree with. Little things happen all the time with all kids and most teachers do a fine job with handling it in class. But when you have a kid who is breaking the rules multiple times a day, multiple days a week, it's the parent's responsibility to handle it.

I agree with this 100%

OP--I keep seeing posts from you where you say a 5 year old cannot connect their actions with a punishment later in the day or a 5 year old does not have the self control to behave in class (half day Kindergarten?), etc. 5 year olds ABSOLUTELY can behave in class, remember a misbehavior and understand that a later punishment is for it, etc. I truly believe a good chunk of your son's issues (based on these posts) is your low expectations for him--you hold him to a level more appropriate of a 2 or 3 year old than to a school age child.

SO, I am truly curious here as I do not know if OPs perceptions are the norm now or not, do YOU as the parent of a 5 year old yourself believe that a 5 year old can be expected to behave at school even if other kids are not? And do you believe that a 5 year old can remember why she got in trouble earlier in the day and connect an at home consequence to the behaviour?

You aren't! I said the exact same thing many pages back in this thread,near the start, said the kid was 5 not 2 and that is when she came on to defend her child and several posters chimed in saying how he couldn't be expected to behave the poor thing was upset. LOL

My kids knew from toddlerhood on that public behavior was expected and nothing less would be tolerated. they could have trouble in school, need help with subjects BUT they could not misbehave!! ever.

I also don't believe that the kids are that upset that the teacher is gone, they only had her for a month not like years or even all year. more excuses for a child who is not behaving. At my kids school for being as bad as he is he would be sitting in the Principals office and Mom would be making a trip in to speak to them.

Okay now...
I have NEVER said that I expect the school to do all the disciplining of my child.
I said I wished they would do more than just make a phone call home to me.
The teacher's reason's for calling me were that he kept stepping out of line in the hallway and was "fooling around" at center time.
He didn't talk back, he didn't hit anyone.
He is in FULL Day Kindergarten. He has only been to preschool at our church a few days a week.
He has been home with me always.
I HAVE NO PROBLEM DISCIPLINING MY CHILDREN!
I have FIVE of them!
One has graduated from UCONN and is off to LAW School!
One is graduating from UCONN in December and will be a CPA soon and already has a job with a top five Company in the country.
Another just graduated from Highschool with PERFECT Attendence for ALL 4 years of Highschool. (we don't take our kids out of school for Disney).
So please don't make me out to be a dead beat parent!
I will not apoligize for having a smart sensitive funny child.
We are always working to keep his behavior in check!
He knows how his is supposed to behave in church and public.

As far as not caring about his teacher... You are just wrong!
She like is "Maria" from the Sound of Music, complete with guitar!
Today on the way to church my son was singing a song called "every line needs a leader".
It is a cute song about walking in line at school. He sang it about three times.
Then he said that Mrs. ** (his real teacher) would always sing it to them.
And he wished she could come back and sing it.
So just maybe he was thinking about that when stepping out of line.
Like other posters have stated, the first few months of Kindergarten are about learning the rules and getting comfortable.
He certainly is NOT learning anything else.
They are teaching shapes and colors!
I am not telling the school I will not discipline my child.
I am disciplining him.
You are all crying about how I need to help the school.
I feel they need to do their share.
I'm glad you all have such perfect children.

And as far as the Teacher's privacy, I do respect that.
But I also think that the world was a better place when people shared their problems
and neighbors actually helped and supported each other.

 

[Hannathy]

After your last post I would be willing to bet $100 that your older kids would never have been allowed to do in kinder, what this one is doing. As an older Mom I see it all the time. He is your baby and a late baby. you even said it he is the family clown. You all think he is cute. the older kids thought of him as an entertainment not so much as a sibling. you are tired and so much of what is considered important in elem school as the parent of grown kids you know isn't that important in the large scheme of things. No you aren't a bad parent you are a tired parent. I find myself doing it to, the poster in 4th grade that you would have made 3 trips to Walmart to get stuff with the first one gets done with pasta from the cupboard with the last one.

But the fact is he isn't the subs baby they don't find him cute and he should be behaving in school He is 6 weeks into school. he should know the routine by now, he should be able to stand quietly in line without singing a song-quite frankly that is rather pre-schooly. maybe they would be moving on to reading if the kids were behaving?

You aren't doing him any favors being easy on him because he is the baby. let him get away with all you want at home but make him toe the line the same as you would have with your first. The school is trying to be nice and calling you. Would you rather they suspend him? Are you ready for them to suggest he stay back if he isn't mature enough to handle school?

 

[ajk912]

After your last post I would be willing to bet $100 that your older kids would never have been allowed to do in kinder, what this one is doing. As an older Mom I see it all the time. He is your baby and a late baby. you even said it he is the family clown. You all think he is cute. the older kids thought of him as an entertainment not so much as a sibling. you are tired and so much of what is considered important in elem school as the parent of grown kids you know isn't that important in the large scheme of things. No you aren't a bad parent you are a tired parent. I find myself doing it to, the poster in 4th grade that you would have made 3 trips to Walmart to get stuff with the first one gets done with pasta from the cupboard with the last one.

But the fact is he isn't the subs baby they don't find him cute and he should be behaving in school He is 6 weeks into school. he should know the routine by now, he should be able to stand quietly in line without singing a song-quite frankly that is rather pre-schooly. maybe they would be moving on to reading if the kids were behaving?

You aren't doing him any favors being easy on him because he is the baby. let him get away with all you want at home but make him toe the line the same as you would have with your first. The school is trying to be nice and calling you. Would you rather they suspend him? Are you ready for them to suggest he stay back if he isn't mature enough to handle school?

You hit the nail on the head. I do the same thing with my own kids, I have three. Sometimes BTDT in parenthood is good, sometimes it means we are bit too relaxed.

 

[torinsmom]

Okay, I do have to laugh when the last poster said at least they weren't suspending him If we suspended kids for getting out of line or playing around on circle, we would have a very small class every day.

That being said, OP, I would have a conference with the sub. Figure out what behavior your child needs to work on and then talk about what would be good consequences at school AND at home. Might be as simple as her giving him a little sticker at the end of the day if he had a good day. Let him know what the consequence will be if he doesn't have his sticker(no favorite tv show, no dessert, etc). Sounds like the teacher may be out for awhile, so just treat this sub like his permanent teacher. Let your child know you and the teacher are on the same team and he can be a member of that team as well.

 

[Wishing on a star]

mybabesuz,

I am so, so, sorry that you came here for some advice and support and ended up being drawn in by the 'holier than thou.... parent bashing, "all children should be 'perfect' like mine".
(or 'like mine WILL be when/if I have any'. )

Again, I encourage you to address your sons anxiety and issues that seem to be stemming from this situation in his classroom. It is obvious that the anxiety and behavior issues did not exist prior to this situation, and the new teacher. So, I would be looking at these as a trigger or root cause.

Be honest and frank with him and let him know that his former teacher is probably fine, but that you do NOT know that she will be back.
Tell him that you know that he loved her, and that he misses her, and that is okay to feel sad and upset that she is gone.
Feelings are always valid.

Forget the parent-bashers here on some chat-board.
Focus on your child and support him in this situation.
Forget the accusations and negativity here, and try to find a more positive place...

If you remember some of the advice I had given about how to talk with your son about these issues... Perhaps you could give them a try.

Keep supporting your son.
Address his anxiety.
Reinforce the fact that you understand how he might be feeling, but that he must ALWAYS be on his best behavior in the classroom.

As far as how to handle the phone calls, I would ask them what they see as an 'answer'... Ask them what they are expecting from you... Let them know that if they feel it is necessary, you will be happy to come in for a parent teacher conference.

But, again, to answer your original question...
I would not be 'punishing' my child for stress and anxiety caused this situation in the classroom.
I would not be 'punishing' my child because this teacher simply cannot seem to maintain adequate structure and positive discipline in her classroom.
I would not be 'punishing' my child for not meeting this teacher's expectations if they are skewed and unreasonable.

There are more positive ways to handle this.
The above poster mentioned some good thoughts.

I am sending you

 

[Belle0101]

... Another just graduated from Highschool with PERFECT Attendence for ALL 4 years of Highschool. (we don't take our kids out of school for Disney).


And as far as the Teacher's privacy, I do respect that.
But I also think that the world was a better place when people shared their problems
and neighbors actually helped and supported each other.

I've lurked on this thread since the beginning and haven't felt compelled to comment earlier. But as a parent who has taken 2 of their out of school for Disney and have few qualms about doing it again, I find myself wondering about the first quoted comment above. I'm not sure what you mean by this.

I don't feel I am any less a parent or my children any less a good student for having been to Disney during the school year. As a matter fact, I am glad we made the choice. Circumstances came to be that it was the one and only time we all (DH, myself and our 4 children) were able to go. Circumstances are such that I don't imagine a time when it will ever be possible again. I treasure that trip so much more than any amount learning they would have had sitting 8 hours in a classroom.

I imagine the world was a better place when pople helped and supported each other. It does still happen in some communities. However, there are also folks who thrive on gossip and will repeat it. That's by no means implying that you would. In no way would I want strangers or the parents of my pre-school students knowing all of my business. They aren't my personal friends and I don't know what they'll do with that information.

Case in point, our previous neighbor has a son that came to be incarcerated. His mother shared with me some of the things that had happened to her son in prison, awful things. She asked me to share them with no one. I didn't.

However, she shared these same things with our other neighbor. They came over one evening and said that they knew some things about the son and weren't supposed to share them but they felt they needed to. They proceeded to tell me what I already knew. But they were laughing about it.

Again, not saying that you would share personal information but really, the teacher most likely doesn't want her business spread all over town. I don't blame her one bit.

And my neighbor with the son? It got around what was happening to her son. They ended up leaving the area. The embarassment was too much for them.

Best of luck to you. I hope that you can find a solution that is a win for all involved.

 

[phorsenuf]

Okay now...

Another just graduated from Highschool with PERFECT Attendence for ALL 4 years of Highschool. (we don't take our kids out of school for Disney).

But you send them to school sick. There's no way that any child could go for 4 years and never miss a day of school without being sick.

Not something to be proud of if you ask me.

 

[Wishing on a star]

OP,

Just read the two above posts...

DISENGAGE!!!!!!

Log off...
Step away from the keyboard...
And handle this situation in the most positive way that you can.

 

[Hannathy]

I would not be 'punishing' my child for not meeting this teacher's expectations if they are skewed and unreasonable.

I am not going to get into the rest of your post BUT I have to highlight this.

Do you honestly think expecting a kindergartner 6 weeks into the school year to stand in line quietly keeping his hands still, to sit at story time and not roll on the floor, to not throw things around the room, to not talk out of turn. you honestly think these are unreasonable expectations!!!!!!!!! Wow!!!

I can't believe this, I expected this basic listening out of preschoolers. I really hate to see your schools if these basic behaviors are skewed and unreasonable.