Send them to Kindergarden or Wait

[holly7347]

I would talk with his current preschool teacher and see what he/she thinks. My 5 year old DD (will be 6 in March) is in kindergarten this year and not doing so well. Her preschool teacher had marked her behind in some areas but I didn't really think that much about it because the school was very academic. I thought they were just advanced and thought she would be fine in a regular public school. She has struggled to recognize letters and her teacher has recommended me using flash cards with her at home. I have quizzed her and quizzed her and she is finally catching on with letters. Now I find out she is really behind on counting. I have begun helping her with that at home but she just doesn't seem to be getting it yet. Knowing what I know now I really wish I would have waited a year. I am an involved parent and I volunteer in both my DD's classes, read to them, and take them places like the children's museum, zoo etc. But she really needs more study help at home than I have time since DH and I work opposite shifts and it is hard to keep little sister occupied to find time to study with DD. Emotionally and socially she seems to be doing fine just not getting the academics.

But having said that I am not to concerned about starting little sister in kindergarten at age 5. She is doing well in preschool now and seems to catch on to things faster than her big sister. She has one more year of preschool before we need to make the decision and I will talk with her preschool teacher before we enroll her in kindergarten to see what she thinks but if they say they think she is on track she will start at the usual age.

 

[Leajess99]

I would talk with his current preschool teacher and see what he/she thinks. My 5 year old DD (will be 6 in March) is in kindergarten this year and not doing so well. Her preschool teacher had marked her behind in some areas but I didn't really think that much about it because the school was very academic. I thought they were just advanced and thought she would be fine in a regular public school. She has struggled to recognize letters and her teacher has recommended me using flash cards with her at home. I have quizzed her and quizzed her and she is finally catching on with letters. Now I find out she is really behind on counting. I have begun helping her with that at home but she just doesn't seem to be getting it yet. Knowing what I know now I really wish I would have waited a year. I am an involved parent and I volunteer in both my DD's classes, read to them, and take them places like the children's museum, zoo etc. But she really needs more study help at home than I have time since DH and I work opposite shifts and it is hard to keep little sister occupied to find time to study with DD. Emotionally and socially she seems to be doing fine just not getting the academics.

But having said that I am not to concerned about starting little sister in kindergarten at age 5. She is doing well in preschool now and seems to catch on to things faster than her big sister. She has one more year of preschool before we need to make the decision and I will talk with her preschool teacher before we enroll her in kindergarten to see what she thinks but if they say they think she is on track she will start at the usual age.

If she seems to be struggling and since she is enrolled are you looking at maybe holding her back?? Does your school offer Extended school services (tutoring) where they can help her one on one?? I would recommend checking into it as well. Also this is a really good program to help with counting and it seems that many kids enjoy it. http://www.primarygames.com/math/fishycount/start.htm They have other games but I have not checked them out.

One thing our school does with the kindergarteners is make up word and letter cards. Each week the kids get more words or letters added to them and they are to practice them every night at home. It is just index cards on a ring and they are very helpful. It may be something you could try. We have site words, the color words, numbers, letters, etc on them.

 

[luv2go2disney]

We started our DD at 5 and didn't turn six until after school was out in June. We thought she was definitely ready, academically and socially. What we were prepared for was the why are all my friends having bdays, why are my friends losing their teeth, why am I shorter than the other kids...This is all from K and 1st grade. I can only imagine what it is going to be like when all her friends start driving--a whole year ahead of DD!

On the other hand my DS that is 14 mos younger with a August bday we knew from day 1 we would keep him home. He is a boy, we wanted a year appart in school, and my husband likes to say because he will be a little older than the other kids in sports(men, is that all they ever think about?). He turned 6 on the 4th day of school and was proud to say he was the oldest one in class and proudly comes home to tell me when other kids are finally his age.

With that being said I would ultimately say do what you feel is best for your child, but also think about what being alot younger than the other kids might do to their self-esteem. I know it has affected my DD more than she lets on even though she is in the highest levels academically. Good luck with your choice!

 

[MTW]

OP here
They cancelled our kindergarten education night where the k teachers come in to preschool to meet with the parents due to weather .
I moved to VA from PA and they cancel schools at the mention of bad weather.
We did get a chance to speak with a first grade teacher that we know in town. Her first instinct was to hold him out. We have a September cutoff here. Her daughter is a July baby also and she said that she is the youngest that she knows of in her class - and she's a junior. I do believe that this is a relatively "new" phenomenon and I would be interested to see if the numbers from the NY Times article have been updated. If up to 20% of people were holding out their children 8-9 years ago, I wonder what the numbers are now. Chris (the teacher) did say that there are 4 days in the spring that we can take our son in to the elementary school and have him spend a day in a kindergarten class. The teachers would also evaluate his readiness at that time.

I think my main areas of concern arise when he interacts with his two closest girl friends. One has a November birthday and is already 5. The other has a March birthday and will turn 4 in March. So if he goes in Sept he will be in the same 'class' as the older friend but if we hold him out, he would enter school with the younger friend. I would say he doesn't really fit into either of their peer groups.

Also, I think that some of the arguments of children being 3 years apart and in the same grade are exaggerated. For instance, if I held my son out of kindergarten when he turned 5, with a July birthday he would still graduate high school at 18 and college (hopefully) at 22. He would be 16 as a sophomore in high school. And in all honesty I would be glad that he would have his driver's license before all of his friends instead of being the last one. Apply that to most everything. My younger sister started kindergarten at 4 - my parents put her in a private school so that she could start early. She always did well in school and was very mature for her age. She is 10 yrs younger than me and was always around older people. She was by far the youngest in her class and I remember her struggling with my parents because all of her friends were allowed to do things that she was not.

Where's the answer fairy when you neeed one?

 

[Mouse House Mama]

We started our DD at 5 and didn't turn six until after school was out in June. We thought she was definitely ready, academically and socially. What we were prepared for was the why are all my friends having bdays, why are my friends losing their teeth, why am I shorter than the other kids...This is all from K and 1st grade. I can only imagine what it is going to be like when all her friends start driving--a whole year ahead of DD!

On the other hand my DS that is 14 mos younger with a August bday we knew from day 1 we would keep him home. He is a boy, we wanted a year appart in school, and my husband likes to say because he will be a little older than the other kids in sports(men, is that all they ever think about?). He turned 6 on the 4th day of school and was proud to say he was the oldest one in class and proudly comes home to tell me when other kids are finally his age.

With that being said I would ultimately say do what you feel is best for your child, but also think about what being alot younger than the other kids might do to their self-esteem. I know it has affected my DD more than she lets on even though she is in the highest levels academically. Good luck with your choice!

This is my point. You weren't thinking about what was best for the child when you decided when he was born that you wouldn't send him! You had no idea at that time if he would be ready but already decided to hold him back. Being bigger on the sports teams as a reason? I am sorry but I completely disagree with you.
As for your dd being younger, why not just explain that different things happen to different people at different times? (losing teeth, birthdays etc.) What if your dd's body matures before the other girls? Should they get held back so they don't feel bad? As for the whole driver's license thing that everybody keeps mentioning I don't really see the big deal. Not everybody gets their license on the same day.

I am not trying to flame you but your post proved my point.

 

[Mouse House Mama]

OP here
They cancelled our kindergarten education night where the k teachers come in to preschool to meet with the parents due to weather .
I moved to VA from PA and they cancel schools at the mention of bad weather.
We did get a chance to speak with a first grade teacher that we know in town. Her first instinct was to hold him out. We have a September cutoff here. Her daughter is a July baby also and she said that she is the youngest that she knows of in her class - and she's a junior. I do believe that this is a relatively "new" phenomenon and I would be interested to see if the numbers from the NY Times article have been updated. If up to 20% of people were holding out their children 8-9 years ago, I wonder what the numbers are now. Chris (the teacher) did say that there are 4 days in the spring that we can take our son in to the elementary school and have him spend a day in a kindergarten class. The teachers would also evaluate his readiness at that time.

I think my main areas of concern arise when he interacts with his two closest girl friends. One has a November birthday and is already 5. The other has a March birthday and will turn 4 in March. So if he goes in Sept he will be in the same 'class' as the older friend but if we hold him out, he would enter school with the younger friend. I would say he doesn't really fit into either of their peer groups.

Also, I think that some of the arguments of children being 3 years apart and in the same grade are exaggerated. For instance, if I held my son out of kindergarten when he turned 5, with a July birthday he would still graduate high school at 18 and college (hopefully) at 22. He would be 16 as a sophomore in high school. And in all honesty I would be glad that he would have his driver's license before all of his friends instead of being the last one. Apply that to most everything. My younger sister started kindergarten at 4 - my parents put her in a private school so that she could start early. She always did well in school and was very mature for her age. She is 10 yrs younger than me and was always around older people. She was by far the youngest in her class and I remember her struggling with my parents because all of her friends were allowed to do things that she was not.
Where's the answer fairy when you neeed one?

See now age has nothing to do with that. Just wait to see how many times when they are growing up that you'll hear "Suzy's parents let her why can't I? You are so mean!"

 

[tinkandpan]

I think it is all dependent on your child. We held my older ds back. His birthday is sept 5 and the cutoff here is sept 30. When he was in prek 4, there were 6 boys in the class who were repeating the class and it was such a year of struggling. He had trouble making friends that year becasue he really was behind where they were (ie into pokemon, star wars etc ). He was emotionally ready to go , but i could see there were certainly differences. However, when it came to academics, i couldn't see him sitting there to do what was needed of him. He repeated prek4 in a transk setting and it was such a fantastic year. He entered K on his 6th birthday. He was one of the older ones in the class but not the oldest and in fact by January, all but 3 kids out of 14 were 6. School has become so fast paced and academic now that I couldn't imagine him doing the reading and writing required of him this year in first grade at his age last year.

That being said, my dd is a july bday and it has never occurred to us to hold her back. She is socially and academically ahead of where ds ever was. So i say make the best decision for your child.

 

[luv2go2disney]

This is my point. You weren't thinking about what was best for the child when you decided when he was born that you wouldn't send him! You had no idea at that time if he would be ready but already decided to hold him back. Being bigger on the sports teams as a reason? I am sorry but I completely disagree with you.
As for your dd being younger, why not just explain that different things happen to different people at different times? (losing teeth, birthdays etc.) What if your dd's body matures before the other girls? Should they get held back so they don't feel bad? As for the whole driver's license thing that everybody keeps mentioning I don't really see the big deal. Not everybody gets their license on the same day.

I am not trying to flame you but your post proved my point.

Just so you know
1. my DS missed the birthday cutoff anyway
2. SPORTS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT! that was my baseball obsessed DH's point of view.
3. He ended up having severe speech issues and we hoped they would be better the longer he waited to go to school.

So I guess my maternal instincts were correct when we decided early on that he wouldnt start K until he was 6, especially since he missed the cutoff anyway.

 

[Mouse House Mama]

Just so you know
1. my DS missed the birthday cutoff anyway
2. SPORTS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT! that was my baseball obsessed DH's point of view.
3. He ended up having severe speech issues and we hoped they would be better the longer he waited to go to school.

So I guess my maternal instincts were correct when we decided early on that he wouldnt start K until he was 6, especially since he missed the cutoff anyway.

No need to get nasty. In your original post you stated that you had decided from day 1 that you were not sending him and that your dh wanted him to have an edge in sports. My point was that on day one you could never have known if he would have been ready 5 years from them. You have to admit that in your first post about it that is exactly how you came across. I'm not trying to pick on you. I was basing my response on what you had posted.

 

[ilandrazdsw]

This is my point. You weren't thinking about what was best for the child when you decided when he was born that you wouldn't send him! You had no idea at that time if he would be ready but already decided to hold him back. Being bigger on the sports teams as a reason? I am sorry but I completely disagree with you.
As for your dd being younger, why not just explain that different things happen to different people at different times? (losing teeth, birthdays etc.) What if your dd's body matures before the other girls? Should they get held back so they don't feel bad? As for the whole driver's license thing that everybody keeps mentioning I don't really see the big deal. Not everybody gets their license on the same day.

I am not trying to flame you but your post proved my point.

I know this was not posted for me, but I'll comment anyway.

Due to DH's work schedule we did have to plan when I would get pregnant as to know he would be home for the birth. From the day we sat down with a calendar and realized that it would best if the baby was born in late June-July I WORRIED!!! DH is a July baby and was the youngest in his class. Although he looked like he could have been the oldest and did do well academically there were other issues that HE and HIS PARENT had to deal with. We were blessed to have 2 children both born in July. We decided not to "red shirt" DS because we thought he could handle the work...come to find out he can excell in some areas, but is behind/struggling in others to the point it is interfearing with learnig and liking shool.

 

[Mouse House Mama]

I know this was not posted for me, but I'll comment anyway.

Due to DH's work schedule we did have to plan when I would get pregnant as to know he would be home for the birth. From the day we sat down with a calendar and realized that it would best if the baby was born in late June-July I WORRIED!!! DH is a July baby and was the youngest in his class. Although he looked like he could have been the oldest and did do well academically there were other issues that HE and HIS PARENT had to deal with. We were blessed to have 2 children both born in July. We decided not to "red shirt" DS because we thought he could handle the work...come to find out he can excell in some areas, but is behind/struggling in others to the point it is interfearing with learnig and liking shool.

I can understand trying to plan so it works for your family and also being worried because of past experience in your family but you didn't decide from the moment your child was born that there was no way he was going on time even if he was ready.

 

[ilandrazdsw]

If she seems to be struggling and since she is enrolled are you looking at maybe holding her back?? Does your school offer Extended school services (tutoring) where they can help her one on one?? I would recommend checking into it as well. Also this is a really good program to help with counting and it seems that many kids enjoy it. http://www.primarygames.com/math/fishycount/start.htm They have other games but I have not checked them out.

One thing our school does with the kindergarteners is make up word and letter cards. Each week the kids get more words or letters added to them and they are to practice them every night at home. It is just index cards on a ring and they are very helpful. It may be something you could try. We have site words, the color words, numbers, letters, etc on them.

I am not flaming!!! And completely appreciate that you offer suggestions.

You mentioned tutoring. Does any and every school offer this WITHOUT labeling the children? As a special ed teacher I have seen one too many students struggle in pre-K, k, 1-3 and end up with a lable. Yes , I know to get sp ed services you have to be tested and meet qualifications. The thing is, parents have said that their child(ren) struggled to learn the material in the first place because they were not ready for school and it snowballed into special education when just a little extra time could/would have made a postitve impact. Once you get a label it is very difficult to shake...wether is is ADD, LD, or slow and stupid. Students realize the differences between each other and do make judgements...and so do teachers! Eventhough a teacher should treat ever student positively and encourage them to do thier best the bar is not always raised to its fullest extent for every student. I would much rather DS be known as the oldest or most mature one in the class than the slow one...not that any child should have that label!

 

[ilandrazdsw]

I can understand trying to plan so it works for your family and also being worried because of past experience in your family but you didn't decide from the moment your child was born that there was no way he was going on time even if he was ready.

Then I guess the question should be asked was he ready? If the child was expected to enter school at the age determined by the parents was he then readied for that age? Sorry if I am not being clear. Kind of like a goldfish in a fish bowl...a small bowl the fish remains small, larger bowl.... So if the parents knew they were keeping him back (in the smaller bowl for then) then he would be ready to enter at the same/similar level as other children "younger."

Posing the question why they would want to keep the child in the "small fish bowl" would then get a personal answer (as is their right as long as the child is enrolled by the state mandated age) wether it be maturity, fine/gross motor skills, extra Kid time without the stresses of school, or yes, even sports. Honestly it didn't not sound like THAT is the reason why the child did not go when he COULD have.

Our DS was "ready" for school because despite the concerns we decided (yes, before birth) that he would be going to school when he was able and we prepared him as such...if we had decided for him to not got to school the until teh next year we would not have "pushed" him. And I do admit I pushed reading.

 

[QueueCT]

This is a tough question when it gets down to an individual child and the parents' motivation for holding back. The reference to the NYT article was simply pointing to the impact that occurs when the practice becomes commonplace and applied to situations where, arguably, it wasn't necessary for the child. I don't think anyone can win an argument with parents when they say it's appropriate for their child to delay starting so I tend to look at the broader impact. Ultimately, my personal opinion is that if it's for a "leg up" then I'm not for it; if it's because the child is clearly unready, I'm for it.

The question about affluent vs. non-affluent communities is interesting. Most educators believe that the discrepancy exists because the non-affluent can't afford to put their children into pre-K programs so get them into school as quickly as possible. I don't know if there are other cultural aspects as a PP had mentioned. These educators believe it's a good thing that the kids go to school when they are eligible as otherwise they would get further and further behind in their education since the parents can't afford alternative education if they delayed.

Another interesting topic is that it's not necessarily the age that a child starts school but the age range of the class. The broader the range, the more difficult it is to develop an age appropriate curriculum so someone is going to suffer . . . the older or the younger. And, of course, there's the discussion regarding chronological age vs. emotional vs. intellectual age. What, really, is the valid measure? It's not surprising that the teachers prefer to gear their efforts to the more capable individuals in the class rather than the least capable. Having a smaller age range in the class is one way (among many) to narrow the range of capabilities.

Ultimately, I don't believe there's an incentive for the schools to create a curriculum appropriate for late 4 year olds to late 5 year olds if there are a large number of 6 year olds in the class. The schools will point to the 6 year olds an say "see, they can do the work." It's a thorny issue and, I believe, a direct result of the high stakes testing that takes place in the early elementary school years. If students need to be proficient in X by 3rd grade then they need to master W in 2nd grade, V in 1st grade and so on. I believe that, in a large way, this drives the curriculum for kindergarten rather than how age appropriate the work is.

 

[QueueCT]

As far as parents expecting schools to prepare their students for college in K, 1, 2...they need a reality check. Preparing, yes. But there are 12 or 13 years to get all that done. If they are not Ivy League ready there are other very qualified and respected institutes of education to prepare them for career or even to prepare them for other Colleges/Universities. There are also Prep schools. Some children, no matter the amount or challenge of the work, will never be admitted to the Ivy League or any college...and that's just fine! Holding students back for maturity, delays, or even for more kid time that's one thing, but so their kids can play ball as a freshman in college? But as the law mandates (referred to in this article) it is the parents' legal decision up to age 7.

The culture here is interesting. The towns referenced in the article are very affluent communities with a high proportion of executives and graduates of very prestigious schools. There is a significant focus on the value (monetary) that results from attending a top 10 school. The view is simply that if I hold by child for a year then they will be more likely to be the best in the class all the way through high school giving them better odds of being accepted at a top university. It's like putting a major league baseball player on a minor league team. The major leaguer's stats are likely to be among the best.

 

[ilandrazdsw]

Ultimately, I don't believe there's an incentive for the schools to create a curriculum appropriate for late 4 year olds to late 5 year olds if there are a large number of 6 year olds in the class. The schools will point to the 6 year olds an say "see, they can do the work." It's a thorny issue and, I believe, a direct result of the high stakes testing that takes place in the early elementary school years. If students need to be proficient in X by 3rd grade then they need to master W in 2nd grade, V in 1st grade and so on. I believe that, in a large way, this drives the curriculum for kindergarten rather than how age appropriate the work is.

Show them an inch, they expect a mile.

 

[ekatiel]

It's a thorny issue and, I believe, a direct result of the high stakes testing that takes place in the early elementary school years. If students need to be proficient in X by 3rd grade then they need to master W in 2nd grade, V in 1st grade and so on. I believe that, in a large way, this drives the curriculum for kindergarten rather than how age appropriate the work is.

ITA with this statement. The problem currently is that kindergarten is the new first grade. The school district we are looking at sending DS to actually states on their website that: "Students who are not already reading by the time they enter kindergarten will be reading by the end of the first nine weeks." IMO that statement is NOT developmentally appropriate for most children (espeically boys) who have just turned 5.

Also, the research shows that children who are white, male, have summer birthdays, and live in affluent communities are the most likely to be held back. Since my child is all of these, if we do not hold him back, we will be one of the few who don't. That means, he will start kindergarten with a bunch of boys who are a year older than him. So, unfortunately, one of our reasons for holding DS back is that "everyone else is doing it".

DS will be 5 in July, and his fine motor skills are behind-- he still doesn't write his name yet (he gets it about half done and tells me, "I have a LONG name, Mama!"). If we sent him to kinder next year, he would struggle, but he would probably pass. If we wait a year, he will not struggle as much, which to me indicates that he will probably have more of a love for learning and enjoy school more.

I am a former teacher, so I've researched this subject a lot in trying to decide what to do for DS. I'm not 100% comfortable with the decision I've made, but I really do think it's what's best for DS personally given the circumstances. We have chosen to enroll DS in an "Advanced Pre-K" class next year so that he will be challenged a bit more than this year.

Here is a link to another NY Times article about red-shirting if anyone's interested: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/03/magazine/03kindergarten-t.html?_r=1&ex=1181620800&en=f43dab2278512be8&ei=5070&emc=eta1 --Katie

 

[Mouse House Mama]

I am not picking on anyone here but if I hear one more time, "well boys don't do as well" I am going to scream! I think kids in general respond to the limitations we as parents put on them. I absolutely cannot stand the argument that little boys aren't capable. Having boys and girls I do not agree at all. Sorry for my rant. It just drives me nuts.

 

[ilandrazdsw]

I am not picking on anyone here but if I hear one more time, "well boys don't do as well" I am going to scream! I think kids in general respond to the limitations we as parents put on them. I absolutely cannot stand the argument that little boys aren't capable. Having boys and girls I do not agree at all. Sorry for my rant. It just drives me nuts.

In my son's class every singel one of the girls from the Spanish Wells culture act more mature than the boys of Spanish Wells culture. The teacher expects the same of each with regards to the rules. She says for the class to sit and take out books...the girls get to their desk and go for their books...the boys need another announcement. I have witnessed this since the begining of school on a weekly basis. She has tried rewarding the girls for the boys to take notice NOPE! Some of the older boys in the class are starting to focus and not need repeated prompts.

Even in my own teaching the girls have a tendency to be more mature and focused than the boys.

And yes, IMO maturity does play a role in a student being ready or capable to handle the work/pressures of school.

Great that YOUR kids met your expectations!

OK, SCREAM

 

[ilandrazdsw]

OT: Just out of cuiosity what are 1st graders expected to do/learn?