Tracking Cruising Restart: News and Updates

[ford91exploder]

There is no way a cruise bill is going to pass on Earth Day. If you don't think that some of the opposition to cruising is about climate change, then you are naive.

Or vacations generally for the work units, Relax in your 400 sq ft apt and have some more soylent green.

 

[Intr3pid]

There was technical guidance that was released a few weeks ago for part 2a. Your thinking of the Framework for Conditional Sailing Order. But that is very high level and doesn't have the detailed requirements. The industry was waiting on technical guidance for details. The technical guidance for 2a is the part they were missing (and the technical guidance for the remaining parts that still hasn't been released). The technical guidance is pages of details for step 2a, versus 3 paragraphs in the first document.

It was all over the news and cruise blogs when it was released and the lines and ports claimed to be very disappointed that was all they got, because it didn't even have the information on the important next step of test cruising, or a date when test cruises could start.

Here are the facts as explained from Alaska's Motion to Intervene in the Florida case (emphasis mine):

On October 31, 2020, the CDC issued a “Conditional Sail Order” that promised a “phased resumption of cruise ship passenger operations.” 85 Fed. Reg. 70153. The initial phase consisted of testing and additional safeguards for crew members while the CDC ensures operators build the laboratory capacity needed to test future passengers. Id. Subsequent phases would
include simulated voyages, certification for ships that meet specific requirements, and a phased return to passenger voyages. Id.

On April 2, 2021, the CDC issued technical guidance for phase 2a of its phased approach. Among other requirements, this phase requires operators to create “planning materials for agreements that port authorities and local health authorities must approve to ensure cruise lines have the necessary infrastructure in place to manage an outbreak of COVID-19 on their ships to include healthcare capacity and housing to isolate infected people and quarantine those who are exposed.”3 This plan, in addition to a host of other requirements, requires operators to obtain “medical care agreements” that include contractual arrangements to provide for emergency medical transport of critically ill persons and contractual arrangements with shoreside medical facilities to ensure that travelers receive appropriate clinical evaluation. In these agreements, the cruise ship operator “must document that its contractual shoreside medical facilities or healthcare systems either singularly or collectively have enough medical capacity in the judgment of the local health authorities to care for travelers if an unanticipated outbreak of COVID-19 occurs on board its ships.”

Along with the medical care agreements and other related requirements, cruise ship operators must enter housing agreements with shoreside facilities to allow for isolation of and quarantine of persons with suspected or confirmed COVID-19. The housing agreement provision includes another host of requirements, including an obligation by the cruise ship operator to “document that it has made contractual arrangements . . . in sufficient quantities as determined by the local health authorities to meet the housing needs of travelers until they meet CDC criteria to discontinue isolation.” In addition to the housing requirements, the CDC also directs the parties to the agreement—which includes the cruise ship operator, the U.S. port authority, and all health departments exercising jurisdiction over the port—to jointly consider the potential needs of travelers under quarantine and isolation. These needs include the availability and frequency of testing; availability of mental health services; pharmacy delivery and other essential
services; available of security; a check-in process, including delivery of luggage; procedures to ensure daily monitoring of travelers in quarantine; procedures to minimize contact between travelers in quarantine and support staff; and post-isolation and post-quarantine procedures to allow travelers to safely return home.

The CDC has yet to issue technical guidance for Phase 2b—simulated voyages—or any of the other remaining phases. Based on the Conditional Sailing Order, it will be at least a 90-day process for a cruise ship operator to complete a simulated voyage and possibly obtain a conditional sailing certificate. Alaska’s cruise season is limited, extending from mid-May to early October each year. Unless the CDC’s overly burdensome and opaque requirements are altered or lifted soon, it will be impossible for large-scale cruising to resume in the United States in time for any part of Alaska’s season. And, given the CDC’s current pace for issuing its technical guidance and the lead times necessary to arrange and market cruises, the CDC’s action
may jeopardize the 2022 cruise season as well.

Most of those specific details weren't available until this month. You can Google the two documents to compare them.

As of today, the test sailing guidance (for part 2b) still hasn't been released. With a minimum of 90 days from starting test cruising to actually having normal cruises, the lines will miss a big part of the summer cruising season, even if test cruising resumes very soon (it won't). Frankly, I think the cruise lines, ports, and states have a legitimate reason to be frustrated with the CDC at this stage.

You can argue that the CDC would release the next steps if they would simply comply with 2a, but they have only had a few weeks since specifics were available, I am not sure any line can actually comply with it, I too would be hesitant to start an expensive process without fully knowing what I was getting into, and I don't see any indication at all that the CDC will suddenly release the next parts just because they have complied with 2a - the CDC hasn't even claimed that it will.

By the way, I just learned the the 12-hour separation requirement for terminals was dropped from the guidance recently, and only requires it to the extent practicable.

Thanks - I found the instructions.

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/cruise/instructions-local-agreements.html
I hadn't perused the document before, but, upon a closer look, it seems to be expanding on what has been brought up in the CSO. (I don't see much in the way pf an entirely new paradigm here.) If a port and a cruise line have been in discussions for arranging shoreside quarantine and healthcare capacity, the technical guidance provides an easy template to follow. The details seem to echo what MSC and others negotiated with the Italian government last year.

In fact, the key to getting up and running quickly is to educate the CDC about how the industry operates and what procedures to put in place. As it is, the industry is waiting for the CDC to first learn about and then come up with guidance for cruise ship operations. These are scientists who have a dozen other more pressing issues to deal with. Help them help you. For example, the cruise health panels have done well with guidance for procedures on board, and I doubt the CDC will have much to add to it. But a cruise operation is more than just managing the guests and the crew. That's where the cruise lines have dropped the ball.

So, if we want details on, say, how to run a simulated sailing, let's get the panel together and have it come up with a 75-or-so-point report on how to do it. The CDC doesn't have a cruise ship manual sitting on the desk for this purpose.

The good news is, some - such as RCL - seem to have realized the problem, and they are now working with the CDC. I think that's what's behind Fain's more recent optimism.

 

[mevelandry]

I won't be surprised if masks are still required in Canada a year from now.

I’d be perfectly fine with it.

 

[mevelandry]

Pandemic Forever.


We aren't going to get herd immunity with these vaccines. They don't last anywhere near long enough. You need to keep getting them every year. Even if you get great compliance the fuly vaccinated number up high by the end of the year, everyone will need to get another dose next year. Many won't. They will forget or let their guard down or won't care anymore, etc... And the virus will have a resurgence. And this will be a fight year after year, just like the flu.

So if they are going to wait for herd immunity before lifting mask mandates and lifting the cruise ban, they won't ever be lifted.

If we can control the situation to make it more like influenza (with yearly shots), that’s still a win in my book... And I could see us returning to normal life under these conditions. You might end up seeing medical masks more often than before the pandemic (in public transportation or when someone has a cold).

 

[Calantha]

I am not sure I know anyone without a passport. My kids had them since they were born. If someone can’t afford to buy a passport for $100, I seriously doubt they can afford a disney cruise.

So, I have a divorced friend with 2 kids. Her ex-husband won't let her get passports for the kids, even though she would pay for them. She can take them on a closed-loop cruise though with their birth certificates. Anyway, everyone has different circumstances and passports just aren't an option for some people.

 

[tvguy]

Cruising without a passport is foolish.

To be honest, even if you don't leave the country a Passport is almost a necessity in our society. It made getting my Real ID Driver's license a breeze. It made enrolling my kids in school, sports and getting THEIR Driver's Licenses so much easier. Okay, maybe not a necessity, but sure makes a lot of routine life situations where you need to prove your ID much easier

 

[tvguy]

Slightly OT: Will Travel Insurance companies cover you if:
1) You cruise against CDC guidelines?
2) You cruise in areas like the Bahamas where the State Department has issued a travel advisory due to covid concerns.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

Meanwhile, DeSantis is both arguing for cruises to restart, and also issuing an executive order banning Florida businesses from requiring proof of vaccination from people seeking to use their services. The order prohibits all cruise lines from requiring vaccine certificates for their Florida operations.

So that is also really... In conflict with sense? In Europe cruise lines are requiring vax.

 

[71 Truck]

I think the bill that was proposed and the law suits by Florida and I think now Alaska are needed to wake people up. Now people are starting to ask "why does the CDC have so much power with no one to answer to".
The cruise industry has been begging for guidance on what is needed to start cruising. The CDC has not been forthcoming with realistic answers or anything that may look like a time line since the no sail order was changed 6 months ago to what we have now.

Lets face it, as far as the CDC is concerned they could careless about the cruise industry.
They do not care about the jobs/income that are lost by the workers and business that gain from the cruise industry. How many people have lost everything or are close to loosing everything because of the shut down.
Notice they, the CDC still get their pay check tho.

It has been hinted on some internet forums and YouTube channels that "if cruise ships never sailed out of a US port again they would be fine with that." I do not believe this to be true however the CDC has been dragging their feet with the cruise industry but not with others they may have some control over.

This is taking into consideration the way they have acted/given advice to every other industry the may have a say in.
You can go to a theme park, you can go to many tourist destinations that have decided to open, you can fly in a plane, schools are open, you can leave the country go on a cruise and fly home no problem you just can't go on a cruise from the US.
Other country's are allowing cruising under their safe guideline and so far their have been no major problems.
Hundreds of thousands of people have cruised around the world just not from the US.

I have been saying to my wife since last fall the cruise lines need to re port their ships outside the US and start sailing again using the heath and safety protocols they developed. They are doing in other places around the world just not here.

Maybe the threat of a new law or law suite forcing the CDC to act is what is needed to get thing moving in a realistic direction.

 

[71 Truck]

Meanwhile, DeSantis is both arguing for cruises to restart, and also issuing an executive order banning Florida businesses from requiring proof of vaccination from people seeking to use their services. The order prohibits all cruise lines from requiring vaccine certificates for their Florida operations.

So that is also really... In conflict with sense? In Europe cruise lines are requiring vax.

I think what you might see are two different possibility's.
One may be the country's the ships visit may require a person to vaccinate to be able to visit. That way it is not the cruise lines that are requiring it.
This would be something out of the control of the state or federal government in the US.
I think this something you are going to see as a mandatory requirement to visit most cruise ship stops.

The next thing would be a compromise, you will have to take a COVID test prior to boarding the ship unless you have been vaccinated. That way the cruise would not be asking or requiring a vaccine. You would have a choice.

This is just my opinion as to how thing will be in the beginning.

 

[brentm77]

Thanks - I found the instructions.

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/cruise/instructions-local-agreements.html
I hadn't perused the document before, but, upon a closer look, it seems to be expanding on what has been brought up in the CSO. (I don't see much in the way pf an entirely new paradigm here.) If a port and a cruise line have been in discussions for arranging shoreside quarantine and healthcare capacity, the technical guidance provides an easy template to follow. The details seem to echo what MSC and others negotiated with the Italian government last year.

In fact, the key to getting up and running quickly is to educate the CDC about how the industry operates and what procedures to put in place. As it is, the industry is waiting for the CDC to first learn about and then come up with guidance for cruise ship operations. These are scientists who have a dozen other more pressing issues to deal with. Help them help you. For example, the cruise health panels have done well with guidance for procedures on board, and I doubt the CDC will have much to add to it. But a cruise operation is more than just managing the guests and the crew. That's where the cruise lines have dropped the ball.

So, if we want details on, say, how to run a simulated sailing, let's get the panel together and have it come up with a 75-or-so-point report on how to do it. The CDC doesn't have a cruise ship manual sitting on the desk for this purpose.

The good news is, some - such as RCL - seem to have realized the problem, and they are now working with the CDC. I think that's what's behind Fain's more recent optimism.

I agree that the lines should have been more proactive early and resorted to recent steps only if that didn't work. At least publicly, they don't appear to have been proactive in finding solutions.

I am a little less lenient on the CDC, only because I think if the government is going to use its police power to shut down an entire industry for over a year, then it also has a very high burden to do whatever it takes to get the industry started again. You don't get to shut down companies, putting thousands out of work, and say you are just too busy to handle it. If Italy, of all places, was able to get a similar framework in place, after what they have dealt with, then the CDC, with all its resources, should have found a way to do it too.

Furthermore, while I am very aware of the dangers and complications of a covid infection raging through a ship, I think between the vaccines and months of cruising safely in other countries, we can be more reasonable and balanced about protective measures. The technical guidance reads like it was written by government scientists who have never worked in a business. They seem to ask for more than is required and more than may be possible to achieve, at least at a profit.

I am still looking forward to seeing the CDC's yet-to-be-filed answer in the litigation, because I haven't heard its side of the story, and it could change my viewpoint.

 

[tvguy]

I think the bill that was proposed and the law suits by Florida and I think now Alaska are needed to wake people up. Now people are starting to ask "why does the CDC have so much power with no one to answer to".

Well, in Alaska's case, the CDC isn't the issue. They could lift the restricitions today and the Canadian ban on cruise ships with over 100 passengers means no ships will be cruising Alaska until AT LEAST March 2022.
While many think the U.S. has been too restrictive due to covid I think it may be time for people to wake up and realize that much of the world is taking covid a whole lot more seriously.

 

[mcd2745]

Bottom line is, the CDC has acted in bad faith. There is clearly a much greater political influence, than scientific influence, to their decisions.

 

[DCLMP]

I think what you might see are two different possibility's.
One may be the country's the ships visit may require a person to vaccinate to be able to visit. That way it is not the cruise lines that are requiring it.
This would be something out of the control of the state or federal government in the US.
I think this something you are going to see as a mandatory requirement to visit most cruise ship stops.

The next thing would be a compromise, you will have to take a COVID test prior to boarding the ship unless you have been vaccinated. That way the cruise would not be asking or requiring a vaccine. You would have a choice.

This is just my opinion as to how thing will be in the beginning.

I think it will be a negative covid test, vaccine, or a positive antibody test. I also think they may still test everyone regardless if they have had a vaccine or not.

 

[DCLMP]

I abandoned ship (pun intended) on my November cruise. I didn't want to get left scrambling at the end trying to find park reservations so I've already converted all of the days to a WDW only trip. It's just not worth trying to plan on something that has so much uncertainty.

My strategy is to book a cruise and a WDW package for the same week. The cruise I'm looking at has a 60-day PIF and the package of course is 30. I can make my park reservations and be ready to go if the cruise cancels.

 

[71 Truck]

Well, in Alaska's case, the CDC isn't the issue. They could lift the restricitions today and the Canadian ban on cruise ships with over 100 passengers means no ships will be cruising Alaska until AT LEAST March 2022.
While many think the U.S. has been too restrictive due to covid I think it may be time for people to wake up and realize that much of the world is taking covid a whole lot more seriously.

You are correct about the restrictions with Alaska.

As far as sailing on a cruise ship, even tho some people may think the US might not take COVID as serious as the rest of the world, some of those other country's are allowing cruise ships to sail under the proper safety and health protocols.

I think a new law or possibly a law suit by states most affected by the shutdown is the best way to get peoples attention. I think to a point it may have. Only time will tell.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

Frankly, as I understand regulatory authority, DeSantis doesn't have the right to regulate if cruise lines require vaccines.

This gets into how the Coast Guard and CDC can restrict cruising, and that DeSantis cannot just allow it because of Florida ports. He doesn't have that authority.

The CDC does report in to the executive and legislative branches. They are not without oversight. But it is absolutely true that their mission fails to include a willingness to decide how many deaths are okay in the name of economics.

 

[brentm77]

Well, in Alaska's case, the CDC isn't the issue. They could lift the restricitions today and the Canadian ban on cruise ships with over 100 passengers means no ships will be cruising Alaska until AT LEAST March 2022.
While many think the U.S. has been too restrictive due to covid I think it may be time for people to wake up and realize that much of the world is taking covid a whole lot more seriously.

The state must think they will get temporary relief in Congress to bypass Canada - but I understand that isn't a great option from a sailing standpoint.

Much of the world has taken the virus more seriously (at least early on), but they are also still sailing in Europe and Asia. Something like 400,000 passengers have sailed in the last six months.

 

[BadPinkTink]

Slightly OT: Will Travel Insurance companies cover you if:
1) You cruise against CDC guidelines?
2) You cruise in areas like the Bahamas where the State Department has issued a travel advisory due to covid concerns.

the short answer is no.

If a country's official recommendation / advisory is not to travel to a specific country, and a person does, then that travel voids travel and medical insurance.

I am in the same position, my country has advised against all non essential international travel so any Irish person who travels internationally for a holiday will not have travel or medical insurance. Many people do not realize this.

 

[ford91exploder]

To be honest, even if you don't leave the country a Passport is almost a necessity in our society. It made getting my Real ID Driver's license a breeze. It made enrolling my kids in school, sports and getting THEIR Driver's Licenses so much easier. Okay, maybe not a necessity, but sure makes a lot of routine life situations where you need to prove your ID much easier

The great advantage of a passport is it proves identity and citizenship in one tamper resistant document.