Seems size does count!

Interesting article, but it doesn't mention the Concordia's biggest problem was its arrogant captain.
 
Interesting article, but it doesn't mention the Concordia's biggest problem was its arrogant captain.

The Captain was indeed the biggest part of that disaster, but crew training, operational/safety polices (no Boat drills before leaving port, etc) and the Costa office big wigs are also part of that problem.

So far, 5 have been convicted of crimes, 4 crew member/Officers and 1 Costa office executive. The Captain is on trial now.

The article does bring up safety issue of size/number of passengers and the questionable ability of the industry self regulation layers that up to now, don't seem to be doing the job.

Hopefully things are getting better and safety is being improved.

AKK
 
An interesting read, we may be hitting the limits as to how big cruise ships can be. Bigger ships equals fewer ports it can easily visit. Do the cruise lines really want to build a ship so big that it's can't dock in a home port? Imagine having to be tendered out just to embark on a ship. Physics and engineering will play a role in this too.
 

I thought it was a pretty silly article aimed solely at getting somebody to establish some type of regulation that would be enforced by somebody on some ships. A newspaper story does not establish a need for regulation, nor does it give any basis for its conclusions. :sail:
 
I thought it was a pretty silly article aimed solely at getting somebody to establish some type of regulation that would be enforced by somebody on some ships. A newspaper story does not establish a need for regulation, nor does it give any basis for its conclusions. :sail:



Well in fairness it was a short article, The point I though was important is that this issue of size and safety is now going beyond the self regulatory layers.

No it did no have answers or conclusions, the purpose of the article was in raising the questions of size, number of people onboard and safety.

Not silly at all to my thinking, but to each there own opinions.

AKK
 
If safety appears to match the capacity for the CMs presently who are 'serving' everybody on these big'uns...


:eek:

(by "where oh where" I do not mean photographers who are clearly half the staff. :rotfl:)
 
/
Seems size is starting to count or at least being looked at!


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/28/b...-face-scrutiny.html?partner=yahoofinance&_r=0


Are the ships just getting to big!......Can they be safe?


AKK

I question how big is too big. With around 8000 people on the largest ships this is truly a small town and I find it surprising we don't hear more about issues on board. Take just one item like security. Most towns this size have a full time police force with a chief, lieutenants, investigators and patrol officers. The US average is 1 officer for every 400 civilians.

I realize the policing aspect is made easier because of the controlled environment but with a US average of 15 simple assaults/1000 and 104 thefts/1000 I find it hard to believe that when you put 8000 strangers together that some of this crime doesn't come on board too.

The lack of fire training the report refers to is gross negligence. This and trying to stuff 300 people on one life boat while the fire crew is fumbling around figuring out what to do will eventually kill somebody.

One observation. I really enjoy being on the water seeing and smelling the ocean.To me, the larger ships seem to be designed to focus you inward towards the extra revenue makers on board rather than exploiting the fact you are on the open sea.
 
Well in fairness it was a short article, The point I though was important is that this issue of size and safety is now going beyond the self regulatory layers.

No it did no have answers or conclusions, the purpose of the article was in raising the questions of size, number of people onboard and safety.

Not silly at all to my thinking, but to each there own opinions.

AKK

Agree entirely that we are all here with our own opinions. I've read your other posts and you obviously have a lot of good experience on the sea. I respect and appreciate that.

I'm just not of the opinion that simply because ships are bigger makes them any less safe, which seems to be what the NYT story is saying.
 
I question how big is too big. With around 8000 people on the largest ships this is truly a small town and I find it surprising we don't hear more about issues on board. Take just one item like security. Most towns this size have a full time police force with a chief, lieutenants, investigators and patrol officers. The US average is 1 officer for every 400 civilians.

I realize the policing aspect is made easier because of the controlled environment but with a US average of 15 simple assaults/1000 and 104 thefts/1000 I find it hard to believe that when you put 8000 strangers together that some of this crime doesn't come on board too.

The lack of fire training the report refers to is gross negligence. This and trying to stuff 300 people on one life boat while the fire crew is fumbling around figuring out what to do will eventually kill somebody.

One observation. I really enjoy being on the water seeing and smelling the ocean.To me, the larger ships seem to be designed to focus you inward towards the extra revenue makers on board rather than exploiting the fact you are on the open sea.

Excellent points Wadekind!

I don't claim to have all the answers, but one thing that has always bothered me was the muster stations far inside the vessels.

I realize the less space used for boat and stations, makes for more room for other guest amenities. However would it be better to have the passengers mustered closer to the boats, with more open deck space available? Would not the boats be able to be loaded faster?

This is just one of my pet peeves.

AKK
 
Agree entirely that we are all here with our own opinions. I've read your other posts and you obviously have a lot of good experience on the sea. I respect and appreciate that.

I'm just not of the opinion that simply because ships are bigger makes them any less safe, which seems to be what the NYT story is saying.

Hi again OKW Lover (we are members too and love our home resort OKW).:thumbsup2

I am not saying the monster or even the mid size class vessels are not safe. I think the article just brought up the questions.

They do however present different problems and issues than the smaller ships.

My old tankers only had +/-35 men onboard and lots of space and 4 lifeboats!. Muster stations and drills were not a problem! We also had 1 every week.

I have to say one thing, when I saw the recent pictures of the Love Boat sadly going to the scrap yard, I was amazed how small she was!

I agree with the sea air, I loved standing out on the bridge wing on watch and just enjoying a gentle breeze, the roll of the ship and the sea air.

AKK
 
In addition to the safety aspects, one thing that bothers me about the mega ships is that all those passengers overwhelm the tiny port towns -- wall to wall tourists when the ship is docked.
 
In addition to the safety aspects, one thing that bothers me about the mega ships is that all those passengers overwhelm the tiny port towns -- wall to wall tourists when the ship is docked.


It's no different than when there are 3, 4 or 5 ships docked/anchored in port.

And the islanders make their living off of those people, so while it may not be a peaceful experience for cruisers, it's great for the locals.
If someone wants a "peaceful", uncrowded vacation, taking a cruise is the LAST thing they should do, regardless of whether it's a mega-ship or not.
 
In addition to the safety aspects, one thing that bothers me about the mega ships is that all those passengers overwhelm the tiny port towns -- wall to wall tourists when the ship is docked.

To take this further, if the ship is too big to dock then it has to tender. Lots of people lots of tender ships OR long waits to tender.

I'm of the opinion you can make the ship too big. Won't be able to see/explore all of it on your week cruise. Gonna have to be a long cruise.

But on the safety side of it, some of them do look like a good wind they might tip over ;)
 
I read the article then went back and reread the article. Theres a few things that strike me about the article.
First, it almost seems like a pot stirring article on a real slow news day.
Second, the writer might want to go back and check a few facts. For 1, the last time I looked, a Nimitz class carrier, is no where near 225000 tons. The heaviest is still under 200000 tons the last time I looked. My cousin was stationed on 1 until recently. The heaviest is about 1100000 tons. Lengthwise maybe close to the same, but not displacement.

From a different standpoint, theres a few things that the writer seemed to miss. He talked with a few people who are concerned, but never really talked with builders and designers. Or fire suppression manufacturers whos equipment is on ships. Or the heads of security for cruiselines.

In someways, I do think that safety as a whole hasnt caught up with the size of ships today, in someways. However, theres a lot of things that are built into ships, that the average guest will never notice.

Security for 1. While security of a ship is still one of the most important considerations on a ship, in a lot of ways, ships are like mainland casinos. Youre being watched almost wherever you go. Theres probably hundreds if not thousands of cameras, both hidden and in plain view. I remember a bridge tour on the Magic where the security office was open, and there was a bank of cameras that was constantly monitored. What happens when an issue is observed, is a matter of debate. I do know that when my wife fell on the deck of the Wonder in 09, while we were walking the deck going towards the buffet, a ships security officer was next to us within a minute or so. Followed by the CD.

Fire safety. Most if not all cruiselines have their crews trained in multiple disciplines. A waiter for example might double as a lifeboat evacuation attendant. I talked briefly last week with a bartender, on the Fantasy, who was a fire team leader. I didnt get a chance to go back and talk to him though I definitely would love to. Another thing to look at is the current trend in SOLAS, is to build a ship with fire resistive and fireproof materials. Making fires harder to start and continue to burn is a really good thing. Another trend is the spinklerization of ships. There sprinklers everywhere. They are designed to put out a given amount of water over a given amount of area, after activation. (btw, hanging your laundry on a sprinkler is bad. If you knock the link or disc out, water will flow) When functioning properly, they will hold a fire in check if not put it out. Smoke detectors, while a pita for fire crews, are becoming more reliable. I know of at least 1 person who took a really hot shower, and got a call from the ships security office asking if everything was alright in the room. Apparently, she set off a heat detector. There is an unknown, and I wish that that article was printed 2 weeks ago before I went on the Fantasy, because I would have asked on board to find an answer.Otherwise, there are standpipes and FDCs all over the ship. I have a habit of looking for them.

Ill leave the Concordia alone. That horse has been beat to an unrecognizable pulp.

The Splendor. What a lot of people dont know, and was not made common knowledge, is that there was a lot of balls dropped, long before that fire ever started. Anyone of them, could have lessened if not stopped the fire long before the power was cut to the entire ship.

GOS. From what I have seen, the fire crew onboard did an outstanding job stopping that fire at sea with no help from shoreside crews. I would love to see the after action report on that fire.
When a fire starts in a steel ship, heat builds up, and will continue to build up until long after the fire is out and lots of water is poured on the affected areas. Heat will travel and start fires in other unaffected areas of a ship. Like the crew areas above the deck where the fire apparently started. Or it could have dropped a deck also. Venting and extracting smoke and heat is even more problematic. Where shoreside, literally hundreds of firefighters can be called, and continue to arrive, in a short period of time, thats not true for a ship at sea. You might be lucky for another ship to arrive and offer support.

The only real issues that I can see as far as safety at sea, whether the ship is the Big Red Boat, or Allure of the Seas, is complacency. (the same is true on land also) Because true major emergencies, such as the Grandeurs fire, are extremely rare, most crews can spend their careers on ships and never see a fire, or experience the high heat and blinding smoke that comes with it. Yes, they go through "fire school" before they board a ship, and go back periodically, and the buildings they use may be hot, there is no substitute for actually dragging hoses down passageways, while trying to keep out of the worst heat, while still trying to put out a fire, or even get near it. We have a mantra where I work. Wet Stuff goes on the red stuff and we go home.

Another issue is the seeming party atmosphere, during the evacuation drill that even DCL is condoning. I was on another cruiseline, which shall remain nameless. As they called out the rooms, you were supposed to answer Hot, Hot, Hot. Guess what. In a real emergency, Im not yelling hot hot hot. I want to know that the kid standing in front of me, actually understands that this isnt a game. They are playing with peoples lives by doing that. By doing away with the lifejackets during the drill also, all its going to take is for 1 person to get hurt or worse, because they didnt understand it or how to put it on, then watch the instant experts come running.

Common sense. Apparently there is a lack of it. I was talking with someone who was on the Fantasy hurricane cruise. They said the same things I did. If the Capt is coming over the ships loud speakers saying stay in your rooms, thats not the time to go get something to eat or complain to guest services. They are telling you this for a reason.

When is a ship too big? I honestly dont know the answer. If a ship is too big for a port, the line probably isnt going to send it there, if it cant be serviced. Port Canaveral last year comes to mind. Up until then, they did not have a pier big enough for the Oasis class ships. They do now and are planning on building another, and dredging the channel.

Just because a ship gets bigger, doesnt necessarily mean that safety is taking a back seat. Safety features on the ship are evolving, just as fast as the ships themselves.
 
The only real issues that I can see as far as safety at sea, whether the ship is the Big Red Boat, or Allure of the Seas, is complacency.

This. The article even though it is weak, quoted the USCG report on the Splendor fire that found numerous faults that could be attributed to complacency.

https://homeport.uscg.mil

type splendor in the search box and it will take you to a page with a PDF of the whole report. Intersting stuff with pictures including one of the 700# piston that was ejected from the engine block.
 
But on the safety side of it, some of them do look like a good wind they might tip over ;)

Whenever I say something like that to DH (his dad was a Navy, Merchant Marine, and beyond (those big grey civilian-military-support ships, and his, sadly, DID have a fire on it when he was flying to meet it) lifelong sailor, and DH worked on oil tankers in Valdez for awhile) he reminds me that half the ship is BELOW the water. Now, he's specifically talking about the cargo ships in the port outside our window but says it works for cruise ships, too.

We talk about it a lot because I read a Clive Cussler book some years back about bad guys building a ginormous ship with the plan to flood the earth or something like that (the bad guys would choose the people who got to go on the ship) ...and then suddenly the Freedom class then Oasis class RCCL ships started being built. I was nervous. ;) And I don't think you'll ever get me on Quantum...
 
We talk about it a lot because I read a Clive Cussler book some years back about bad guys building a ginormous ship with the plan to flood the earth or something like that (the bad guys would choose the people who got to go on the ship) ...and then suddenly the Freedom class then Oasis class RCCL ships started being built. I was nervous. ;) And I don't think you'll ever get me on Quantum...

If size is the issue, Quantum will be smaller than the Oasis class ships.
 

GET UP TO A $1000 SHIPBOARD CREDIT AND AN EXCLUSIVE GIFT!

If you make your Disney Cruise Line reservation with Dreams Unlimited Travel you’ll receive these incredible shipboard credits to spend on your cruise!





New Posts





















DIS Facebook DIS youtube DIS Instagram DIS Pinterest

Back
Top