Scooter issues again

[crashbb]

Poppinsme - I suggest you read the whole thread and then edit your post.

 

[seashoreCM]

The wheelchair or scooter user waiting alone in the designated area of a bus stop is (should be) the norm; someone else would accompany him to help push.

Can Peter Pan be stopped like Buzz Lightyear and Spaceship Earth to allow those needing more time to board and alight do so more safely?

Poppinsme - I suggest you read the whole thread and then edit your post.

Would you go through the thread and select out the relevant sentences and put them all together in one reply (or in a private message) for Poppinsme to read and then edit his post accordingly?

 

[crashbb]

Would you go through the thread and select out the relevant sentences and put them all together in one reply (or in a private message) for Poppinsme to read and then edit his post accordingly?

No.

 

[Poppinsme]

Poppinsme - I suggest you read the whole thread and then edit your post.

I did read the whole post.
And even after many years in health care I can say that I still have compassion. Not all of us are hard of heart. And I'm not saying that Scuba is.
And yes Scuba I am glad that you came back with a positive response.
I was just surprised about the whole thread over being inconvenienced by something you cant control. Do I make sense?
If Scuba is a type A personality like me then maybe when he gets to be my age he can learn not to sweat the small things.
And thats why I have remained in health care so long and happy. Because I have learned to not sweat the small things in life.
Life is fleeting so enjoy it!

 

[kaytieeldr]

Can Peter Pan be stopped like Buzz Lightyear and Spaceship Earth to allow those needing more time to board and alight do so more safely?

Absolutely NOT. Peter Pan can be stopped ONLY in an emergency.

 

[SueM in MN]

The wheelchair or scooter user waiting alone in the designated area of a bus stop is (should be) the norm; someone else would accompany him to help push.

Can Peter Pan be stopped like Buzz Lightyear and Spaceship Earth to allow those needing more time to board and alight do so more safely?

No, Peter Pan can NOT be stopped.

The main reason we have been told it can't be stopped is that there is a transition from being on the ground to flying and then back to the ground at the end. The other reason is that since the ride vehicles are suspended, it's a little different to keep guests in non-moving ride vehicles than stopping Buzz Lightyear, for example.

WDW's policy is that a wheelchair party includes up to 6 people (5 plus the person with a disability). There are many reasons that someone may not be able to split up and have only the wheelchair or ECV user alone.

Well, since you asked... this IS a reasonable suggestion - the problem comes primarily in our natural, "You first, right after me" (general) attitude.

Ready? Okay. The person in the wheelchair or ECV waits near the correct boarding point with one other member of their party.
The rest of the party gets in line.
When they're approaching their turn to board a bus (oh, I forgot - this works best where there ARE controls, i.e. Value resorts and theme parks; other resorts and water parks, not so much) - usually when they're in the front row of any roped/snaking waiting line - the ECV Guest and their companion indicate to the bus driver that they'll be boarding. She or he opens whatever loading system that bus uses; the two Guests board; the driver closes the back door; and the on-foot Guests board.

Heck, the ECV user - and many wheelchair users - can wait alone if necessary. I know I had to - on the patio outside Adventurers' Club the night before it closed, while my friends got to wait in line together and converse

So, you see, you're not wrong - it's just a matter of completely changing behavior

That may work in situations where there are a very few people getting on and already on the bus, but I can tell you from experience that it won't work like that most of the time.
When we have had more than just a couple in our party, we have had either DH or I wait with DD in her wheelchair near the front of the waiting area and the rest of our party was waiting in line. DD and DH were loaded onto the bus first, before any other guests were loaded. The rest of our party loaded as we got to the front door, like all the other guests and we got seats, along with at least 8-14 people behind us getting seats each time we boarded. (Along with quite a few guests who didn't get seats and stood).

In all the times we have done it that way, if DD and DH had not boarded the bus first until the rest of our party and I got to the front, they would not have been able to board with the wheelchair because it would have been too crowded. And, we are talking about a small size manual wheelchair which is very manouverable, not a large wheelchair or ECV.

So, even though it sounds like a good solution, it would not work out and would mean leaving guests with wheelchairs/ECVs and boarding people who could walk onto the bus who arrived later.

So, unless they get buses with ramps or lifts at the front door, with spots at the front that are left open for guests with wheelchairs/ECV, there won't be a safe way to have people with wheelchairs and ECVs wait in the line.

 

[Inkmahm]

OMG!!!! I love this board, I love my 'peeps', I love what has transpired here. I am so incredibly proud of you all.
Thanks Eric for that wonderful post. I had hoped you would do something like that after the PM you sent me.....it's so good for everyone to see that sometimes we can affect how others think. But...we need to be sensitive and try to listen to each other, with open minds. And that's what you all did. You are truly the greatest. Thanks to all of you. You make me proud!!!

Thanks for keeping this thread open, giving the OP the chance to have a change of heart.

I've been following this thread as I have a mom in a wheelchair and know first hand how tough it is to get her around WDW in it. We don't really have a relaxing vacation when we take my mom (and other relatives) along but we love having others with us so we do it anyway.

In December, we will have my in-laws with us. I discovered this weekend that my MIL will definitely need a scooter in the parks. I knew she had knee surgery and that her arthritis was getting much worse so that both knees hurt her now, but I didn't realize how bad she'd gotten in the last few months since I'd seen her last. Walking with a cane, she can walk slowly for maybe a couple blocks. But that's it. I've spent this weekend trying to avoid making her walk as much as possible, dropping her off at entrances and then going to park the car, etc. But that isn't going to work at WDW. Here's my problem- she is going to be impossible to talk into using a scooter. She tries to walk without her cane due to admitted vanity. When I mention a scooter as a possibility for December, she gives me a blank stare. Any suggestions for how to get her to submit to a scooter in the parks?

 

[kaytieeldr]

Get one for yourself and ask her to do you a favor and alternate with you because your doctor told you to alternate walking and using the scooter. "Miraculously" find you're not straining yourself at ALL by walking, and since you've already paid for it for the week, would she PLEASE do you another favor and not let your money go to waste?

 

[NHdisneylover]

Hi scuba--good to see you again It appears, like the last thread you and I went rounds on, that you have shown yourself capable of gaining other perspectives and chaning your mind:bravo Much of what I have to say does not really apply to you anymore because you have changed your mind--but I think it adds a new perspective to teh discussion (and perhaps others are following along).

Full disclosure: I fully admit that one of the things I enjoy about Disneyland Paris is that there is such a dramatically smaller number of EVCs and wheelchairs in the parks. It makes the parks much easier to navigate and means these types of arguments tend not to come up. I have no issue with EVCs at all, but I admit I enjoy a park which is not crammed with wheeled devices; just as I am sure those in such devices would enjoy not needing to use them.
Additional disclosure: I am a mother of two. I managed dozens of bus rides back to the resorts with a sleeping toddler or preschooler in my arms. It never occurred to me to expect someone to give up their seat to me--I always knew I had the option to wait for yet another bus if I did not want to stand and I certainly always knew the folding seats could need to be used at any time for an EVC. I have not ever been confiend to a wheelchair or EVC so I have no knowledge of what it is really like other than heresay and trying to put myself in other's shoes in my own mind.

I would assume (becuase in numerous posts he has never said otherwise) OP's daughter are typical, healthy kids. If so, at the age of nearly 4 the older one (and possibly even the younger one) is surely hopping out of her stroller when arriving at an attraction--much like OP describes the EVC users doing. One could ask WHY is the child in the stroller when she clearly does not need it? After all, we can probably all attest to having been rammed by careless (or downright malicious in some instances) parents pushing such strollers, and the strollers take up a lot of room on the busses (we are a weird family who enjoys figuring things out and happened to "calculate" about how many spaces per bus were being taken up by strollers that could have had a person standing there if the stroller were not along--we estiamtes an averge a 8-10 more people could have ridden each bus had there been no strollers on them). Also, balancing all those stollers while also balancing a plethora of bags and a sleeping child on a bus leads to a dangerous situation for all of us around the "sherpa parent" Yes, I have had a stroller land on DS's head when the parent lost their grip on it while maintaining their grip on their child. Often I have held a stroller for a parent so that the parent can better hold his/her child (safer for that child and those of us in range of the falling stroller).
The answer is pretty obvious isn't it? Your DD does not need to be in a stroller to handle walking shorter distances at all. But, at her age, the sheer amount of walking at WDW combined with the heat is just too much for her to handle. So, you bring along a stroller. For many with EVC or wheelchairs something similar may be happening.

I certainly think EVC/wheelchair abuse does happen. We once stayed next door to a family in which the three teens argued loudly every morning over who got to ride in the EVC that day We also had two instances last trip where people in chairs/EVCs (one of each) came behind us in accessible fastpass lines and tried to push on pass to the front of the line (I have no idea how many people let them through before they got to us. In both cases we politely explained that as far as we understood they were supposed to wait with the rest of the line and we would certainly clarify with the next CM and apologize of we were wrong. One was sort of nice about it and seemed genuinely confused. The other had her husband keep ramming her chair into my ankles until we got to the fastpass check point while loudly telling me to move. At the point I politely asked the CM if we were supposed to allow chairs and EVC to pass through and she said no and stopped the people behind us to clarify. The poor CM was being yelled at by this person at the time that we rounded the corner The amount of abuse that I have seen considering the number of chairs and EVCs in the parks and the number of trips I have taken is pretty small though. In such cases I feel angry with the abusers because it increases the amount of animosity legitmate users have to face from people like the OP (orgianlly when he wrote it), rather than feeling anger towards EVCD users in general.
I think "parent abuse" is much more rampant. On every trip I have seen a large number of school age kids riding in strollers--often kids whose parents admit they are not faced with any challenges, but just get tired easily from all that walking. As previously stated, strollers take up a lot of room on busses (and the stroller parking lots are really not adding to the beauty of the parks) so maybe that is not right? I have also enountered, multiple times on every single trip parents who think the fact that they have little kids trumps everyone else (really funny at WDW where half of us do) meaning they use that as the reason why they should get to sit on the bus, why they should get to get out of line and reenter where they were (potty break), why they should get to move to the front of the parade viewing even though they did not get a spot ahead of time, and on and on and on.

My point is NOt to go on a rampage and say I think parents should not be given any consideration at WDW or that most stroller users are abusing the privelagge, etc.. My point is, that often the perspective is dramatically different from "inside" than as an outsider and often what seems reasonable to you seems annoying and demanding to others and there are those who abuse the consideration given to ANY group. Somehow, we all tend to notice those abusing their stauts in other groups (and then blame the entire group) more than we notice from within our own ranks (wether we are in EVCs, are parents, are Americans, are photographers, etc. This can pretty much apply to any group you can lump together). Disney does its best to accomidate everyone fairly. They even give some special perks to parents (child swap!) that no one else gets. Try to relax and work with the system and you will be much happier (and in your case right now I agree that renting a car is likely what you need to do).

 

[goofy4tink]

Well, since you asked... this IS a reasonable suggestion - the problem comes primarily in our natural, "You first, right after me" (general) attitude.

Ready? Okay. The person in the wheelchair or ECV waits near the correct boarding point with one other member of their party.
The rest of the party gets in line.
When they're approaching their turn to board a bus (oh, I forgot - this works best where there ARE controls, i.e. Value resorts and theme parks; other resorts and water parks, not so much) - usually when they're in the front row of any roped/snaking waiting line - the ECV Guest and their companion indicate to the bus driver that they'll be boarding. She or he opens whatever loading system that bus uses; the two Guests board; the driver closes the back door; and the on-foot Guests board.

Heck, the ECV user - and many wheelchair users - can wait alone if necessary. I know I had to - on the patio outside Adventurers' Club the night before it closed, while my friends got to wait in line together and converse

So, you see, you're not wrong - it's just a matter of completely changing behavior

Okay then....but is sure is nice to be able to meet said 'disabled person' inside at their special entrance and then get preferential seating!!! That was pretty cool.

I did read the whole post.
And even after many years in health care I can say that I still have compassion. Not all of us are hard of heart. And I'm not saying that Scuba is.
And yes Scuba I am glad that you came back with a positive response.
I was just surprised about the whole thread over being inconvenienced by something you cant control. Do I make sense?
If Scuba is a type A personality like me then maybe when he gets to be my age he can learn not to sweat the small things.
And thats why I have remained in health care so long and happy. Because I have learned to not sweat the small things in life.
Life is fleeting so enjoy it!

Ah, but the OP has come back and told us of his 'change of view'. Did you perhaps miss those posts??? Eric has listened to those of us here, who posted without a ton of sarcasm and nastiness, and found that perhaps we might have a legitimate point. He seems to have reversed his original opinion.

The problem is this....many, myself included, have seen pretty obvious ECV/wheelchair abuses at WDW. As I said in a previous post, I actually overheard someone complaining about the cost of renting a scooter when, come to find out, it wasn't going to get them to the front of the line!!! And that was not a solitary occurance. I have seen elders saying that no, they didn't need to ride in the wheelchair, that they would get into it when they got to the attraction..go ahead, let little Janey sit in it and ride.
So yes, there is abuse. It doesn't show any lack of compassion to notice, and comment on it. And by the way...some of the least compassionate people I've met??? Working in hospitals, as nurses. I have had to wonder why they chose that particular profession. Pretty much the same as teachers, who complain about kids, being kids.

But....I digress.....the OP (Eric) has made pretty much a comlete 360 here. Let's not dwell on his original post or the subsequent posts. But instead, lets focus on the fact that our 'arguments' managed to change someone's opinion and viewpoint...rather than belabor the original point.

 

[Virtucomp]

Disney obviously cannot hold guests to showing proof of a handicap before renting a ECV just as they cannot verify the athletic stamina of a child when using or renting a stroller.

Maybe it would be helpful if Disney provided an explaination with the ECV rentals explaining how to use them and how to enter attractions. I'm sure some people must have gotten to the enterance to Splash mountain with an ECV and said " How do I climb the stairs?". They could also explain their policy on getting to the front of the line. If they cannot use the standby line then go to the fast pass line but wait with the other guests until the CM can accommodate your needs.

Maybe a little reminder that caution should be used when operating the ECV in crowds to avoid inadvertant injury to others.

I think we could aggree that there is a definate need for the ECVs. There is no reason people who are not capable of walking for hours should be prevented from enjoying the park or the transportation. They just need to understand that Disney will help them enjoy the park but they have to share the enjoyment with all of the guests.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Maybe a little reminder that caution should be used when operating the ECV in crowds to avoid inadvertant injury to others.

Respectfully, we can be as cautious as all get-out and STILL run into people who either don't see the ECV, or think they can cut in front of it or across its path safely.

As has been explained here several times, simply releasing the throttle or power stick does NOT instantly stop the ECV or power chair. Kinetic energy keeps it moving a bit before it's able to stop fully.

 

[tallulah77]

Hello, I've read most of this I tend to agree with the original post, for the most part. My main complaint is that when you have been waiting for a bus, say after park closing, for up to half an hour sometimes, it just starts to wear a bit thin when someone appears from nowhere in their scooter and gets straight on the next bus. Never have I seen someone say 'No, these people have been waiting, I'll wait my turn'. I appreciate they may have to board first for safety reasons or whatever but most people I have seen seem to act asthough it's their right to jump the queue.
At busy times, why can't they have a CM at the bus stops who can fill the first bus with the people who have been waiting longest and can just say to a person in a scooter 'we'll get you on the next one', or something like that.
I'm not discriminating against anyone with a disibility, and I'm glad I have all my functions, I just think that people should wait their turn. I don't have kids but I can imagine that having tired, miserable kids, pushchairs (strollers for you Americans!!!!) bags etc. can't be much fun either.

 

[maxiesmom]

Hello, I've read most of this I tend to agree with the original post, for the most part. My main complaint is that when you have been waiting for a bus, say after park closing, for up to half an hour sometimes, it just starts to wear a bit thin when someone appears from nowhere in their scooter and gets straight on the next bus. Never have I seen someone say 'No, these people have been waiting, I'll wait my turn'. I appreciate they may have to board first for safety reasons or whatever but most people I have seen seem to act asthough it's their right to jump the queue.
At busy times, why can't they have a CM at the bus stops who can fill the first bus with the people who have been waiting longest and can just say to a person in a scooter 'we'll get you on the next one', or something like that.
I'm not discriminating against anyone with a disibility, and I'm glad I have all my functions, I just think that people should wait their turn. I don't have kids but I can imagine that having tired, miserable kids, pushchairs (strollers for you Americans!!!!) bags etc. can't be much fun either.

The problem is that there are very few spaces on a bus for ECVs. Only 2 or 3, depending on the type of ECV. So the odds are high that if someone on an ECV waited for the next bus, that they would not be able to get on, the spots would alredy be taken. Or the lift wouldn't work. It is only fair to them to board them when there is an open spot. Get it while the getting is good. There is no way to know that the next bus would be able to take them.

There is no way to load the busses that would be 100% fair to everyone. I think Disney handles it the best way possible.

 

[Bete]

So called regular folk have so many more options for vacation. Please, give the scooter/wheelchair group a break at Disney.

Although, it's not policy to load a scooter/wheelchair after the bus has people already on it there can be reasons unknown to you why the driver did it. You'll never know the truth about it. I was on a Disney bus one time that completely went off the beaten path. I didn't get any notice about it or I would have declined getting on the Disney bus. Anyway, it took about an hour longer then it should have going one way. This wasn't exactly an emergency, either. Things happen and the drivers need to make a decision sometimes that may not follow along the lines of policy.

I've been looking into escorted motorcoach vacation tours for wheelchairs and it's basically non-existent. I'm in the process of planning a trip by car now instead because of it. A scooter would present similar problems. I wish there was a way to do other vacations more easily.

Until you face the same issue, it's very difficult to understand the feelings of others not the same as you. I've given my seat up to a mother with infant many times on the buses even after spending an entire day pushing a wheelchair at the parks without someone to help. Also, I can't even count the number of times that I've been banged up by a stroller on the bus. You can go back and forth on this all day long.

We have a tendency to use a car more at Disney, but for MK it's a real hassle and the bus is just better.

There's no winning the battle here for either group.

 

[drinkme]

I kinda see your frustration. You wait for what seems like forever (and when you're carrying a sleeping child, it makes it tougher), and then you have to give up your spot for someone in a scooter.

Well, it is what it is. I think it's great that people who need the scooters can enjoy themselves at WDW. There are many places these same people can't travel to because of their physical limitations. So, when I'm using a Disney bus, I just deal with it. I don't let it bother me. Also, I try to stay at a monorail resort. I stayed at POP once, and I just hated the buses. It seems like there are more scooters at the POP bus stops! I don't like renting a car while at WDW, so I my only other option is staying at a monorail resort.

So, my advice to the OP: either deal with it, rent a car, or stay at the CR.

 

[goofy4tink]

Can we please keep in mind that the OP has posted that he has changed his stand here??? He listened to what people had to say and has changed how he views the situation.