School situation - declining Basic Skills program

[Cindy B]

Then my son would NOT be taking Oboe lessons at school!!!!

That is not a valid reason... Just an excuse.
Simply NO WAY would he miss math.

What are peoples priorities here????

Well, that is why it is drilled into them that academics are to be stressed first. If there is a test or such, the test is priority over the lesson.

This enables my son to learn problem solving, organization and time management.

A teacher that can teach a double reed instrument is hard to find, so compromise and concession needs to be made for all students.

It gets worse in middle/high school. Schedules are disrupted more.

 

[Cindy B]

Here is my personal example....

I am signing the necessary paperwork to get my son into Occupational Therapy for a bona-fide viseo-spatial-motor problem.

Well, the thing is, until they have the paperwork, and get it all worked out, nobody can tell me just when my son will be 'pulled' out of his classroom to go to OT.

You can bet your bottom dollar, that if the only time that they can pull him is during Reading or Math... I will put a VERY quick stop to my son recieving OT at school. And, this OT is a very important bona-fide necessity for him. But, NO WAY would I let this force him into Special Ed for Math or Reading. I can get OT for my son outside of school.

Very interesting situation... A child ends up labeled and placed in a Special Education Math program IN school, or needs Math tutoring outside of school, over flute lessons during math time AT school? I just can't wrap my brain around this one.

This all has to do with district size as well. My kids are in a very large district (almost 12K students). Some teachers (music, arts, resource, kindergarten as well as specialists: speech, OT, etc) have to go to many other schools in the district to service all the students. They have very set hours set by the students schedules and union requirements. If you have a set time with these traveling teachers, you have to abide by the schedule.

Classroom teachers are aware of this predicament. I've been in classrooms where this happens, and we just do our best with the situation. Sometimes if the student is behind, I will page the teacher and talk to them regarding it without giving out particulars..stuff like "We are doing a quiz and we would really like student X here, can he come when he is fininshed?". Most teachers don't mind. If they can't reschedule, (this happens with the speech teacher often), they will come back with "I appreciate that, but this student needs these services as required by his IEP."

I personally can't violate IEP requirements, so I send them.

Its a compromise/concession. There are also strict academic requirements in our district regarding band, chorus, drama and such like that. If at any time the grades are low, they are removed for a time or indefinetely suspended. If a student has a questionable grade average or just wants to get out of class, this student goes up for review and has a trial run with the activity. If it proves too much missing of academics, the activity is suspended for a marking period.

 

[swilphil]

They cannot make you do anything. You pay taxes, they work for you, you are her mother, you outrank them.

They are probably worried about covering their butts due to the No Child Left Behind legislation.

I'm also betting that this is somehow tied into NCLB. Someone may want your daughter in the group because they know she will be able to improve and bring the school's scores up. I'd contact the teacher or principal and talk about it. If anything, have her retake the test.

 

[luvflorida]

She is so upset about this, and on the nervous side to begin with, that I don't want her to dread going to school because she has to work with this basic skills teacher.

I've said it before on other threads and I'll say it again. Nobody knows your child better than you do. I'm speaking as a parent AND a teacher.

I would never just accept what the teacher is telling you. I would set up a meeting to speak with the teacher and talk about the situation. If I were your child's teacher, I'd be extremely grateful that you were so willing to help your daughter at home.

When my youngest daughter was in third grade, she was pulled out twice a week to work with the gifted/talented teacher. In the earlier grades the kids weren't pulled out of the classroom. Well, my daughter has always been very sensitive and anxious, and on the days she got pulled out of class, she would end up in tears at home. I met with the GT teacher and I felt she was very abrasive, not at all pleasant, and I didn't feel as though she really listened to what I had to say. Actually, she was quite intimidating and she scared ME, so I knew exactly how she came across to my daughter.

I contacted her classroom teacher and explained the reasons why I did not want my daughter to work with the GT teacher, and that I could provide all the extra enrichment she needed at home. Her teacher just couldn't understand why I did not want my daughter to remain in the GT program at school, BUT she did as I asked and my daughter remained in the regular classroom for third grade. Fourth grade was a different building with a different GT teacher, (one who actually had a pleasant personality), and my daughter loved being part of the GT program after that.

Do what you feel is right for your child, and always, always ask questions if you don't feel something is right.

 

[Disney Ella]

Thanks again for your insight everyone! My DD was just taken out of math for the flute lesson one time. The flute lesson is at a different time and day every week so that the children are not missing the same subject all the time.

One of the things that really bothers me is the way this woman spoke to me. I have had a good relationship with every single teacher my kids have ever had, found them to be caring and to really like kids. They have been reasonable people and easy to deal with. This woman made me feel like she considered me the enemy.

 

[Bella the Ball 360]

They cannot make you do anything. You pay taxes, they work for you, you are her mother, you outrank them.

They are probably worried about covering their butts due to the No Child Left Behind legislation.

Wow and then people wonder why I tell my kids not to follow my path and become a teacher. That is some attitude.

If the child was referred for special help it could be that even though she tested proficient on a standardized test her in class performance might not line up with her scores.

OH, and as to the "they" cannot make you do anything perhaps you should check the new special needs regulations under the new IDEA. I think you will be surprised as to what "they" can make you do now.

 

[swilphil]

Sorry....just having fun with the kids.

 

[Bojo]

When did this change from getting help with basic math skills to a learning defifiency in Math????? The OP mentioned extra help with math skills not any type of referral for Special Education - BIG difference, IMHO.

Since you asked, I would send DD for the extra help until she can meet the goal(s) established by you & her classroom teacher. You may want to see if there is an after school option for math help. Good Luck ...

 

[Boston Tea Party]

From what I understand from the OP, this is NOT special education. The student does not have a learning disability.

This IS tied to NCLB.

She did not perform up to the standard set forth by the school on the assessment. They are concerned about her failing the state yearly assessment. They are trying to get her extra help so that she will succeed.


You CAN refuse this help.

And yes, teachers ARE qualified to make this kind of decision. We make instructional decisions on a daily basis. We decide what type of instruction would best benefit our students. Sometimes that means small group remedial help outside of the normal classroom environment that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with special education.

Of course, like I stated above, parents can refuse this help. I wouldn't refuse it, but I would ask about the criteria for exiting students. The goal should be to get her out of the class when she makes the gains set forth in the program.

It's too bad that the teacher was so abrasive and is off to a bad start.

I hope that you can find a resolution to this situation that is in the best interest of all involved. Good luck.

 

[tw1nsmom]

OH, and as to the "they" cannot make you do anything perhaps you should check the new special needs regulations under the new IDEA. I think you will be surprised as to what "they" can make you do now.

This is misleading. While a school district can appeal and receive an impartial hearing if you refuse an evaluation (rare...very costly...they can now be made to pay your attorney fees if case found frivolous), they cannot appeal if you decline some or any of the services being offered. This is reinforced in IDEA 2005. IDEA 2005 also addresses forced medication. Schools can no longer require a student to be medicated in order to attend. So the new laws greatly curtail the schools from forcing services on children.

To the poster who talked about her son's occupational therapy. If they can't arrange an acceptable time to pull your son for services, then request a new cse meeting in writing. Make them specify in his IEP when he can and cannot be pulled from class. It then becomes legally binding and they must comply. It will be up to them to rearange the therapists schedules, or add therapists as needed (they are never allowed to bring up financial considerations as an excuse for not providing the needed services) Emphasize that both IDEA 2005 and NCLB put the emphasis on preparing a child for further education and proficiency along with their peers in all subject matter. Kind of hard to do if a child isn't there to learn pertinent material.

 

[dg39]

I have twins. Granted they are in their 20's now and attending college. But, when they were in the 5th grade, one was pulled out of class to attend the basic skills class for math. No one labeled them as "the smart one, etc". That class helped her greatly and by the beginning of January, they asked her to leave as she caught on to the math and was able to do it without any help. I always was grateful for that class as it did help her and she never felt stupid or ashamed because she was going to basic skills. It also helped me, because trying to help her do the math homework was like sticking toothpicks in my eyes. It was horrible for both of us. I didn't have the patience to help her. It also saved me from spending additional money on hiring a tutor for her. She and I never had a problem with her going into basic skills and no one ever made fun of her because of it.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Hey, tw1nsmom,

I am familiar with my States IEP etc...

But, I am not familiar with IDEA???? Can you please give further info on this.


And, a note here.
Where I live, NO the school can NOT force anything on the child. ALL of this is done thru the IEP program. ONE bad test can NOT, and WILL NOT qualify a child for any services or help. PARENTS HAVE TO REQUEST and SIGN their approval.

And, yes, I do stand by my statement that a teacher has no right to make this kind of call without OBJECTIVE and QUALIFIED testing/evaluation. This is required here, by Law. I make these comments with good reason, and with personal experience to back it up. My son has a learning disability... his teacher... in her almighty 'professional' opinion, said he had NO learning disability, and when I presented them with the documentation after taking my son, on my own, outside of the school system, to be evaluated.... She admitted that she had never even HEARD of his disability.

You can call the comments here 'teacher bashing' if you want... But, I call it protecting our children from individual teachers who should NOT have the power to either force help and labeling, or to deny much needed help. PERIOD.

 

[Disney Ella]

It also helped me, because trying to help her do the math homework was like sticking toothpicks in my eyes.

Lol, dg39! I'm imagining you with toothpicks in your eyes! My DD sometimes develops an attitude when we work together but most of the time she does the work without a problem.


I did e-mail the principal and tell him that DD could participate in Basic Skills. (School is out for a few days and I wanted to get this out of my head so I'm not thinking about it the entire time we're at WDW.) I also asked if it would be possible for DD to have the other Basic Skills teacher. She used to be the Gifted and Talented teacher and is a very nice woman.

Thanks again everyone for all of your comments. You have helped me calm down about this whole thing.

 

[tw1nsmom]

Hey, tw1nsmom,

I am familiar with my States IEP etc...

But, I am not familiar with IDEA???? Can you please give further info on this.

I'm sorry, sometimes I get caught up in the acronym world. IDEA is Individuals with Disabilities Education Act. It is the federal law that all state laws are based on. States can offer more, but not less than the federal law mandates, but ultimately this is the set of laws that governs the special education/IEP process. There have been changes in the act, most recent being July 1, 2005. That doesn't mean that every school district or even state follows the law like they're supposed to. One of the reasons for the litigious nature of the relationship between parents and school administrators. Once they (not all "they" just some "they") hear that you know your legal rights, they often concede if they know they're breaking the law in the first place.

 

[Boston Tea Party]

Hey, tw1nsmom,

I am familiar with my States IEP etc...

But, I am not familiar with IDEA???? Can you please give further info on this.


And, a note here.
Where I live, NO the school can NOT force anything on the child. ALL of this is done thru the IEP program. ONE bad test can NOT, and WILL NOT qualify a child for any services or help. PARENTS HAVE TO REQUEST and SIGN their approval.

And, yes, I do stand by my statement that a teacher has no right to make this kind of call without OBJECTIVE and QUALIFIED testing/evaluation. This is required here, by Law. I make these comments with good reason, and with personal experience to back it up. My son has a learning disability... his teacher... in her almighty 'professional' opinion, said he had NO learning disability, and when I presented them with the documentation after taking my son, on my own, outside of the school system, to be evaluated.... She admitted that she had never even HEARD of his disability.

You can call the comments here 'teacher bashing' if you want... But, I call it protecting our children from individual teachers who should NOT have the power to either force help and labeling, or to deny much needed help. PERIOD.

This child does not have a disability. She is regular ed. This is not the same as your personal experience. There are no "labels" here. She needs remediation. This was determined by an OBJECTIVE test that does NOT need to be given by a diagnostician or psychologist. It is a content area test given by the classroom teacher, as it should be. It is meant to measure learning, NOT diagnose learning disabilities.

Perhaps the conditions were not optimal, but that is another matter.

For the record, my son has a disability, also. I am familiar with IDEA, IEPs, and the ARD process as both a teacher and parent.

AGAIN, this child is NOT special education. The laws you mention do NOT apply here.

It sounds like you have had some bad experiences with teachers. I am sorry that you cannot view us as partners in your child's education.

I think this is a misunderstanding in this situation and I don't think that anything I say is going to make a diffference in your opinion.

I will take my leave now and wish you well.

 

[klj27]

Wow and then people wonder why I tell my kids not to follow my path and become a teacher. That is some attitude.

ITA! Why does everyone think they know better than the teacher who was a degree and license. There is a reason they are the teacher and we don't all home school.

 

[simpilotswife]

Hey, tw1nsmom,

I am familiar with my States IEP etc...

But, I am not familiar with IDEA???? Can you please give further info on this.


And, a note here.
Where I live, NO the school can NOT force anything on the child. ALL of this is done thru the IEP program. ONE bad test can NOT, and WILL NOT qualify a child for any services or help. PARENTS HAVE TO REQUEST and SIGN their approval.

And, yes, I do stand by my statement that a teacher has no right to make this kind of call without OBJECTIVE and QUALIFIED testing/evaluation. This is required here, by Law. I make these comments with good reason, and with personal experience to back it up. My son has a learning disability... his teacher... in her almighty 'professional' opinion, said he had NO learning disability, and when I presented them with the documentation after taking my son, on my own, outside of the school system, to be evaluated.... She admitted that she had never even HEARD of his disability.

You can call the comments here 'teacher bashing' if you want... But, I call it protecting our children from individual teachers who should NOT have the power to either force help and labeling, or to deny much needed help. PERIOD.

IDEA stands for the "Individuals with Disabilities Education Act" and is the federal law that dictates the procedures that a district must follow before offering/declining Special Education services.

I realize that you are bitter about what happened with the teacher but really that is partly due to your own lack of information. According to IDEA individual teachers do not have the power to grant or refuse special ed services to a child. That recommendation is up to the IEP committee to decide. If you had had the information contained in IDEA, you would have known that a request for Special Ed services should not be made through the teacher but instead should go through your district's Special Ed department.

The OP's comments have nothing to do with Special Ed and everything to do with NCLB which is another piece of legislation that you should familiarize yourself with.

And finally to the OP.....there may now be state regulations in effect that prevent parents from declining the services being offered. Meet with the principal and the teacher and speak to them about the test. This can probably be resolved just by meeting with the principal.

 

[tw1nsmom]

I think this thread got a little sidetracked and some of us were responding to later posts and not the OP.

As to the comment that we should defer to teachers because they're the experts with degrees (paraphrased), that attitude is alienating and offensive. As parents we should certainly consider what teachers(who are conversing in their trained subject areas) are saying about our children, but to defer to them is wrong. Some, not close to all, teachers expect to be put on a pedestal and purport to know more about our children than we do. We, as parents, are true partners with the school, and no title or degree puts anyone over me as an expert in my child. Besides, many people/teachers would be wise to asume that the parents of their children may indeed have more training than they have. I for one have a Bachelors in Psychology, a masters in Elementary Education, a self-taught/informal expertise in many developmental delays (particularly non-verbal learning disability...much reading, have attended many conferences), as well as training towards being a Special Education child/family Advocate. I know of at least six other mothers of kindergarteners alone that have education degrees.

As to individual states having the power to force a non-special education academic assistance on a child, I have no doubt that some states have that on their books. The wording of NCLB (I admittedly get this second hand from my educational advocate instructors) says that remediation will be OFFERED, not forced. Based on that, as well as existing case law (both regarding to special education and regular ed.), the states/schools will be hard pressed in court to force parents to put children in programs that they don't agree with.

In my experience, many states, but more so school DISTRICTS, know what the laws are, but selectively follow them...relying on the fact that most parents don't know their rights. As one of my graduate professors who was also a superintendant of schools said, "We'd go broke following all the laws. We do what we think is right and what we can afford, and only change when a lawsuit is filed." Nice, huh?

Many of the parents of special needs children (me included) go through a traumatic time when their children are first diagnosed. It only takes one or two people that treat our children badly, or mislead us about our rights to turn us into, what appears from the outside to be, militant parent advocates.

BTW, I think the OP made the right decision, particularly since it appears she could choose another teacher. I just don't think she should be forced into a decision, nor should we scare other parents into thinking that school districts have dominion over them.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

I would have a SERIOUS problem with a school that allowed a child to miss MATH for a flute lesson!!!!

Perhaps you can give a little more insight on that situation?????

Ditto...that is NOT a good situation.

 

[Wishing on a star]

I realize that you are bitter about what happened with the teacher but really that is partly due to your own lack of information. According to IDEA individual teachers do not have the power to grant or refuse special ed services to a child. That recommendation is up to the IEP committee to decide. If you had had the information contained in IDEA, you would have known that a request for Special Ed services should not be made through the teacher but instead should go through your district's Special Ed department.

Ummmm HELLO, but I am NOT misinformed, or uninformed...
As a matter of fact, you just completely REPEATED everything that I have been stating in my post!

These laws, which I AM familiar with, (our state must use commonly use their own ACRONYM????) ARE IN PLACE to PREVENT a teacher from having this sole power!!!! That is WHY they were written. To protect parents from this kind of situation... Imagine here.... A kid blows a test, or acts out, or has a personality conflict with the teacher, and BAM, the teacher can just DEMAND that this child be placed in special services!!!

As a matter of fact, the School Psychologist, who is in charge of this in our district, very explicitly explained this to me. She reiterated that we had to go thru these hoops, and that I had to sign the paperwork, in order to AVOID this very situation.

The reason that I went forward with having my son evaluated on my own, was because, even after jumping thru all their hoops... (request to the Special Ed. department, IEP meeting, etc...) the Psychologist went right along with the teacher, and outright told me that she would NOT want to evaluate my son. Was I frustrated... YES Was I angry.. YES Was I disappointed... YES Was I HURT, seeing my poor DS suffer... YES.

But MOST importantly, I no longer trusted these 'Professionals' any further than I could throw an elephant!!!

And, you can throw around words like 'bitter'.... But, you know what. I am not 'bitter'. Am I passionate about the fact that too many kids are suffering because of our educational system is out of control. Yes, I am... very! Because, you see, this one individual teacher, whom I really liked on a personality level, is NOT the problem. I have personally experienced problems like this time after time after time.

The word 'bitter' is a negative and backwards looking emotion. You can bet that this does NOT describe me at all. I took matters in my own hands, I had my son diagnosed, and I personally, with my own time and money (the OT for example) have taken responsibility here. I am gladly doing whatever it takes to help my son and to move forward in a positive way.

So, while I hate to sidetrack this thread any further, I had to take issue with your post, as everything about it was just simply wrong.

To the OP,
I hope it all works out well with your DD in math!!!