Say Good Bye to Maelstrom....A 'Frozen' Ride is Definite

[lockedoutlogic]

I spoke with my friends who work in the area (I sadly no longer do but am still close with the WSC) they basically said Disney went from all but confirming it to CMs to now saying something is happening but we can't talk about what yet. Same thing for DHS something is happening but no confirmation as to what.

Cast members are not given information..:

Public service reminder

 

[Andrew015]

Nice to see a thread where people are arguing both sides of a point without getting personal! Good job!

I, too, am impressed with how the dialogue has developed in this thread. There have been a few points in which things could have turned south quickly, but everyone has managed to keep things above-board.

I agree with the point about Epcot was never about realism. It's a fantasy version of these countries. Is there anyone that thinks Norway is really full of log flumes and trolls?

I don't think any of us "Pro-Maelstrom" folks are demanding that the World Showcase pavilions be 100%, historically-accurate representations of their parent countries. In fact, I find Maelstrom in its current form offers just the right amount of "fantasy" (i.e. trolls based in Norse mythology) mixed with realism. What many of us fear with the potential injection of Frozen into Maelstrom is the high probability of losing that fine balance, and going way overboard on the make-believe fantasy stuff. Again, the Disney-derived "fantasy" attractions belong in Fantasyland. Unfortunately, I think Disney's current M.O. is to remove demand from MK and spread it more evenly amongst the other parks, and the byproduct of that is the decision to force a round peg (Frozen) into a square hole (Maelstrom).

I feel like I am on repeat, but I must reiterate: Maelstrom is NOT the problem within EPCOT! World Showcase, in my opinion, is the biggest draw for this park. Sure, the biggest single, stand-alone attractions within EPCOT are Soarin and TT. But in reality, I think parents / adults / singles come to EPCOT primarily to shop, drink and dine within W.S. and to escape the "Disney-derived" fantasy that is crammed down our throats at every other turn of WDW. Soarin' and TT aside, Future World is a total flop. Injecting Frozen into WS is akin to placing a band-aid over a bullet wound. While it might generate a short-term "buzz", it is NOT the long-term solution that EPCOT so desperately needs.

From Disney's point of view, for them to change something, I'm sure they've surveyed the heck out of it, and found that overall, people don't think very highly of Maelstrom.

I seriously doubt that they are going to take the ride and just turn it into "The Story of Frozen". They are also not going to tear the ride to the ground, only make some cosmetic changes to bring these characters into the story that's already there. I picture something along the lines of using Anna, Elsa and Olaf to tell the history of Norway.

Again, I don't believe this to be the case. In my opinion, I believe Disney's "survey" has been watching Frozen's success in the box office ($$$$), followed by upper management's push to capitalize on the financial tidal wave that is Frozen. This wave has sent their development team into a frenzy trying to figure out where they can "plug it in" in order to strike while the iron is hot without having to 1.) Imagineer something totally new and innovative or 2.) spend a significant amount of capital. Again, in my opinion, converting Maelstrom is a cheap and easy out. I'm sick of watching Disney take the cheap and easy path, and I'm ready to see them develop something truly new and innovative without destroying a good, classic attraction (i.e. Imagination). My only hope is that if Frozen is introduced into Maelstrom, that it is done more along the lines of what happened with injecting Johnny Depp into POTC, as that was tastefully done without ruining the ride as many of us previously knew it. I just can't see how this can be tastefully done within Maelstrom, but again, I'm willing to reserve judgment until I see the finished product.

 

[wilkeliza]

Cast members are not given information..:

Public service reminder

Yes they are never given any official information but when you an entire department gets moved then you know something is up. There are also minor things like backstage construction, parking changes, late night activity etc that only CMs would know about that give some stuff away.

 

[skier_pete]

My only hope is that if Frozen is introduced into Maelstrom, that it is done more along the lines of what happened with injecting Johnny Depp into POTC, as that was tastefully done without ruining the ride as many of us previously knew it. I just can't see how this can be tastefully done within Maelstrom, but again, I'm willing to reserve judgment until I see the finished product.

See, this is sort of how I picture it. Perhaps a new voice-over for the ride with Anna describing the history of Norway, and a few animatronics popping up throughout the ride.

Here's the thing - they are not going to go for a full-blown gutting of the ride that takes a year and a half. I think Disney executives are also worried about how long the "Frozen frenzy" will last, and would hesitate to do anything that would take too long. Therefore, I'm betting the ride will be down about 4-6 months, probably back in time for spring break crowds. Disney Imagineers also tend to have a lot of respect for what has come before (Figment not withstanding).

People tend to pick on the Imagination Pavillion, but forget refrubs like PotC, Haunted Mansion, Space Mountain, even Spaceship Earth. I appreciate though that you are willing to see before you judge.

I too would like to see Disney get back into the leadership position with ride innovation. However, I have a feeling that Pandora will be that.

 

[sabrecmc]

I would love it and here's why: I love EPCOT. DD(8) does not. For her, other than Nemo and Soarin', it is pretty boring. I'd love something there to attract her. So, I'm just going to be selfish like that. Bring on Frozen.

And I do think that movie-tie-ins can inspire people to be more interested in a particular country. Look at all the ABD stuff. We are doing a DCL Norway cruise next year, in part b/c DD loves Frozen so much.

I don't go to EPCOT for realism on pretty much anything...the whole idea of a prototype city of tomorrow is long gone, if it ever existed. EPCOT hasn't been on the cutting edge of anything since it opened. And I say this as a die-hard EPCOT fangirl. I still miss Horizons. But, that ship has sailed. Frozen would draw people in like nothing else Disney currently has in its stable of quick-fixes for EPCOT. Just makes sense. Plus, I don't think any ride should be meant to be the same forever...as much as I miss old favorites (Mr. Toad!), that is just not realistic.

 

[skier_pete]

EPCOT hasn't been on the cutting edge of anything since it opened.

EPCOT was never on the cutting edge of ANYTHING, not even when it opened. People remember it fondly, but the original EPCOT was just a bunch of Omnimover rides that were all more or less the same. I remember my first visit as a kid (around 12 years old) and the "best" ride was the Universe of Energy, because the whole theater moved, the rest was pretty blah. I mean, it was somewhat educational, as in "here's a bunch of forms of transportation - buy GM!", "Here's how energy is made - BUY EXXON MOBIL!". I think most everything they've put into EPCOT since it opened - with the exception of the awfulness inflicted on the Imagination Pavilion - has been an improvement over what was originally there. I'm not saying those rides had their merits, but if you ask me would I rather go to Epcot in 1984 or 2014, I would pick 2014.

 

[OZMom]

Mixed feelings about this, Maelstrom is one of the few rides I remember from when I was a kid. When we go in November, I'm sure my kids will enjoy it, if it's still open. However, it probably needs an update and we all love Frozen in this house...Mixed feelings

 

[Andrew015]

Frozen would draw people in like nothing else Disney currently has in its stable of quick-fixes for EPCOT. Just makes sense.

Again, why must we settle for a "quick-fix"? This very notion has disaster written all over it. If there are enough concerns over Frozen's "staying power" as to cause the project to be implemented ASAP in order to capitalize while the movie is still popular, one must ask if it truly is the right path to take? EPCOT doesn't need any more "quick fixes". It needs a long-term strategy that involves true Imagineering. It's good to see this finally taking place at AK. We all hope that a similar project in terms of scope/commitment will be announced for HS involving Star Wars. But NOTHING serious appears to be on the horizon (no pun intended) for EPCOT.

Assuming the Frozen project is a "go", I suspect that Skier Pete is right in that the project will last roughly 4-6 months. How much do you really anticipate them being able to change in that time? Undoubtedly, it will be the same, short boat ride with Frozen characters strewn about. I just don't understand how this will really get kids clamoring to come back? Sure with a little magical Disney advertising, it will stir some interest. But again, it all seems so short-sighted to me.

Plus, I don't think any ride should be meant to be the same forever...as much as I miss old favorites (Mr. Toad!), that is just not realistic.

I have never said that I'm against rides changing. Quite the contrary, actually. However, I'm against rides changing for the wrong reasons. Maelstrom is popular in its current configuration, and as many on both sides of this argument have pointed out within this very thread, it usually has a long wait time. This begs quite the obvious question - "Why change what isn't broken?". On the flip side, the entire Imagination pavilion is always a "walk-on". The Wonders of Life pavilion is on life support. The only thing "innovative" about either of the Innovations pavilions is the light-up fiber-optic concrete walkways found before you even enter the building. EPCOT is losing gallons of blood per hour from each of these atrocities, yet management is keen on "fixing" a popular attraction that isn't "broken". Maybe I need a lesson in "common core" math, as I just don't see how this adds up...

 

[Figmentforever24]

EPCOT was never on the cutting edge of ANYTHING, not even when it opened. People remember it fondly, but the original EPCOT was just a bunch of Omnimover rides that were all more or less the same. I remember my first visit as a kid (around 12 years old) and the "best" ride was the Universe of Energy, because the whole theater moved, the rest was pretty blah. I mean, it was somewhat educational, as in "here's a bunch of forms of transportation - buy GM!", "Here's how energy is made - BUY EXXON MOBIL!". I think most everything they've put into EPCOT since it opened - with the exception of the awfulness inflicted on the Imagination Pavilion - has been an improvement over what was originally there. I'm not saying those rides had their merits, but if you ask me would I rather go to Epcot in 1984 or 2014, I would pick 2014.

When Epcot Center opened it redefined what a theme park experience was. There were things in this park that people have never seen outside before. Computers, touch screen devices, voice control all things the average person didn't have access to in 82. Each pavilion was designed with things never seen before in theme parks. Epcot Center truly was the vision of tomorrow and then Eisner dumbed it down due to it being to expensive to keep updated.

 

[Macdaddy1717]

It is just RIDICULOUS that you all believe this post, Its the WORLD SHOWCASE. Not hey lets randomly throw frozen into it. The showcase is not for that. And idc how many people say they have a "source" i wont believe it till you show me proof from a disney website or some resource saying so. ill be waiting.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Yes they are never given any official information but when you an entire department gets moved then you know something is up. There are also minor things like backstage construction, parking changes, late night activity etc that only CMs would know about that give some stuff away.

You'd be surprised how often the "cast" is the last to know...

Not kidding

 

[lockedoutlogic]

It is just RIDICULOUS that you all believe this post, Its the WORLD SHOWCASE. Not hey lets randomly throw frozen into it. The showcase is not for that. And idc how many people say they have a "source" i wont believe it till you show me proof from a disney website or some resource saying so. ill be waiting.

Usually I am on the soap box next to you warning everyone to realistically debunk almost all rumors:..

But this...seems to be too inline with current "management philosophy"
I think there's fire here - no pun intended

 

[Andrew015]

It is just RIDICULOUS that you all believe this post, Its the WORLD SHOWCASE. Not hey lets randomly throw frozen into it. The showcase is not for that. And idc how many people say they have a "source" i wont believe it till you show me proof from a disney website or some resource saying so. ill be waiting.

I'm holding out hope that you are right, but I don't believe it is such a ridiculously hard rumor to believe. FP+ availability is gone from MDE in a few short weeks, countless CM reports and rumors from rather credible sources all point to it as being more than just a possibility. Certainly, we know from past experience not to "bet the farm" on anything until we see it with our own two eyes, but I think there's a greater chance of Maelstrom getting a Frozen makeover than not, sad to say...

 

[Macdaddy1717]

Mostly me just not wanting to believe it aswell

 

[wallrock]

Again, why must we settle for a "quick-fix"? This very notion has disaster written all over it. If there are enough concerns over Frozen's "staying power" as to cause the project to be implemented ASAP in order to capitalize while the movie is still popular, one must ask if it truly is the right path to take? EPCOT doesn't need any more "quick fixes". It needs a long-term strategy that involves true Imagineering. It's good to see this finally taking place at AK. We all hope that a similar project in terms of scope/commitment will be announced for HS involving Star Wars. But NOTHING serious appears to be on the horizon (no pun intended) for EPCOT.

Assuming the Frozen project is a "go", I suspect that Skier Pete is right in that the project will last roughly 4-6 months. How much do you really anticipate them being able to change in that time? Undoubtedly, it will be the same, short boat ride with Frozen characters strewn about. I just don't understand how this will really get kids clamoring to come back? Sure with a little magical Disney advertising, it will stir some interest. But again, it all seems so short-sighted to me.

This is one of those few examples where Disney having full control over construction timeframes actually proves to be a disadvantage. We've all seen that they can choose to let construction projects languish for months, if not years, if they so desire. On the other hand, if the suits are smelling dollars - like they are with Frozen - then I'm betting that if this rumored conversion of Maelstrom occurs they will have it up and running in a third of the time that we're thinking about, and it won't be pretty. The 'quick-fix' will have successfully followed the new mantra of producing big profit off of minimal investment.

To your point about the quick fixes, I think we pretty much know that this is the standard moving forward. Those of us that desire a return to splendor can continue to hope that someday the worm will turn.

 

[skier_pete]

It is just RIDICULOUS that you all believe this post, Its the WORLD SHOWCASE.

I don't believe the original poster blindly. In fact I was one of the ones that warned against the "definite" of the post..

BUT...

...the evidence is in the favor of the poster. They stopped handing out FP+ for a long time after September27th, which happened to coincide with the start of the fiscal year. Now just recently they opened it up...for ONE additional week. This is not what you would expect them to do if the ride was staying open. Why close FP+? And especially why add one more week?

As an engineer I can tell you why you typically would add the one week. The planning process is underway, and as you start to approach the beginning of construction, you realize you are not quite ready to start. So you ask your boss if you can keep the unit operating another week while all the parts come in or the design specs are approved, or whatever. In this case that means they can keep the ride operating an extra week. So less than four weeks ahead of the date, they open up another week of FP+.

I'm not saying it's certain, but it's also not ridiculous to think that it is.

 

[Planogirl]

EPCOT was never on the cutting edge of ANYTHING, not even when it opened. People remember it fondly, but the original EPCOT was just a bunch of Omnimover rides that were all more or less the same. I remember my first visit as a kid (around 12 years old) and the "best" ride was the Universe of Energy, because the whole theater moved, the rest was pretty blah. I mean, it was somewhat educational, as in "here's a bunch of forms of transportation - buy GM!", "Here's how energy is made - BUY EXXON MOBIL!". I think most everything they've put into EPCOT since it opened - with the exception of the awfulness inflicted on the Imagination Pavilion - has been an improvement over what was originally there. I'm not saying those rides had their merits, but if you ask me would I rather go to Epcot in 1984 or 2014, I would pick 2014.

And I would rather go in 1984. Now we rule each other out which means nothing.

There is no reason whatsoever that Epcot couldn't have a mix of both. It doesn't have to be an either/or but could include something to please everyone. Disney was able to accomplish that at one time.

I do like your comment about GM. I feel like the current ride basically still says the same thing but without a sense of humor. And don't get me started on the carnival spinner that is Mission Space which just happened to replace my favorite ride in Epcot and one of my favorite concepts anywhere. But to each their own.

 

[skier_pete]

And I would rather go in 1984. Now we rule each other out which means nothing.

There is no reason whatsoever that Epcot couldn't have a mix of both. It doesn't have to be an either/or but could include something to please everyone. Disney was able to accomplish that at one time.

I do like your comment about GM. I feel like the current ride basically still says the same thing but without a sense of humor. And don't get me started on the carnival spinner that is Mission Space which just happened to replace my favorite ride in Epcot and one of my favorite concepts anywhere. But to each their own.

Correct to each his own. I've really only been to the "original" Epcot one time, in 1982 or 1983 (the Seas wasn't yet opened), when I was 13, the strongest impression I have as a young teenager of being astounded by technology on that trip was the (off-site) hotel we stayed at had key cards, and still remember being amazed by sticking this card into a lock an opening it up. I don't remember anything from Epcot that impressed the 13-year old me, as I said except the Energy ride (pre-Ellen). The rest I found OK, but outside of spaceship earth I've retained no memory of them. To stay slightly on topic, Norway didn't exist then either, it was added in 1988.

After that, the next visit was 1997 when I was 27, and already many of those original rides were gone. I think Horizons was still there, because we rode it, and I have ZERO memory of it. (I know this is a favorite of many, but having ridden it twice I retained nothing. World of Motion was closed to build Test Track. The original Imagination ride was there and again I remember not thinking very highly of it - though admittedly better than the current version. My memory of The Seas (which was not yet opened in 1983) was it was dark and nothing worked. Best memory in 1997 was Wonders of Life, which is probably the only thing I really MISS in Epcot (Body Wars - Elizabeth Shue in a skin-tight body suit, hubba hubba!) This was the first time I've ridden Maelstrom. In 10 trips, I've ridden it maybe three times. (My daughter at 10 is still terrified of the trolls and won't go on it, which is why we skip it.).

Now, I really like Test Track, Soarin', The Seas with Nemo, Ellen's Energy Adventure, Mission:Space, Spaceship Earth, even Living with the Land, which has barely changed in 30 years except they've taken out the boat narrators, which I think is too bad, but didn't really ruin it. I don't devote much thought/time to Innoventions, but never did. Again, the only really big missing piece I see in FW is Imagination, which in my mind should be the BEST pavillion in Epcot, not the worst. I don't get why Disney doesn't partner with Apple (who I can't stand but will admit was a leading innovator for many years before Steve Jobs passed) to do something really amazing there. But the rest, I'm pretty fine with Epcot. I really want to see Disney put some money into my favorite park DAK (which they are doing) to make it a little fuller experience and into DHS (my least favorite park) to give it some cohesion and a few more ride experiences. Epcot needs some TLC, but I don't think it is the worst offender of Disney. There's a ton to do there - so much so that of all the parks - we struggle to feel we've seen everything we want there.

Maybe I should be more sympathetic to those that want Maelstrom to stay as is. Disney took away two of my very favorite things (Tiki Room and Adventurer's Club) and I was very upset about both, so I get if this is a favorite of yours why you would be upset. But I personally don't see it. It was the same with Rio Del Tempo when they added the Three Caballeros. (OK, Maelstrom is way better than either iteration of that ride.) I just think the majority of refurbs Disney has done have made the rides better, so I'm perfectly happy to wait and see on this one.

 

[Planogirl]

skier_pete, I wish that Apple would somehow get involved! I'm not a big fan either but they are so innovative and interesting.

I'll just add that I'm honestly glad that you enjoy the current version of Epcot. Epcot was my favorite park and what really got me into WDW at one time. I find it rather lame now but luckily still enjoy the other three parks.

 

[skier_pete]

skier_pete, I wish that Apple would somehow get involved! I'm not a big fan either but they are so innovative and interesting.

I'll just add that I'm honestly glad that you enjoy the current version of Epcot. Epcot was my favorite park and what really got me into WDW at one time. I find it rather lame now but luckily still enjoy the other three parks.

And I do feel bad that your favorite park has lost what made it special to you. I unfortunately think that there is no going back on that one.

Do you find the same issue with World Showcase? To me they have not changed much there - in fact I would argue they haven't changed enough. A new (3-D) film in France for one. I really wish there were a few more ride/attraction experiences as well.