San Diego Cruises

[Ravenclaw78]

Correct, and there are those that do Victoria from 9-midnight. The key is that passengers must be able to leave the ship.

Doesn't matter if anything is open, if there are excursions or if it isn't ridiculous, if passengers cannot disembark it is not considered a valid technical stop.

The guidelines also vary a bit on closed loop versus point to point trips. The thing about the EBPC is it is between two US ports so it must have a distant foreign port, with legitimate stop opportunity.

I left a word out.- no passenger debarkation *allowed*. The cruise director was very explicit on that point. I do know why the distant port is required on the EBPC (it's because the provisions of the PVSA differ for open-loop itineraries) as well. I can't find anything in the CBP rulings (Passenger Vessel Services Act (cbp.gov)) indicating that passengers must be allowed to disembark during the stop at the foreign port, but I'm not exactly an expert on maritime law. On the other hand, apparently I *am* definitely wrong about cruises to nowhere, as this document indicates they are an exception:

"Voyages to Nowhere: Transportation of passengers by a non-coastwise-qualified vessel from a U.S. point to the high seas (i.e. beyond the three-mile territorial sea) or foreign waters and back to the same point from which the passengers embarked, assuming the passengers do not go ashore, even temporarily, at another U.S. point."

 

[ScrapHappy]

For the EBPC, I definitely don't think it'll be sailing the itinerary as it was originally scheduled (although that sailing is still 3 months away, so things could change, but to Aurora's point, Grand Cayman is already off the table). If they can't stop in Cartagena and George Town, that gives them a couple of extra days' wiggle room to find a port that they can stop at to satisfy the Distant Foreign Port checkbox. I'm confident that, unless things get much worse, they can find another place to stop. I'm not too concerned about DCL being able to figure out a way to make the itinerary work legally. Many stops, in many ports is definitely more of a barrier, depending on how safe they feel about it.

I have to admit, I do find these potential barriers to be way more likely to be a problem to the extent that they decide not to send the Wonder over than just lack of crew or the cost of coming through the PC empty. I do appreciate your pointing them out.

Factoring in those things I hadn't considered before (which are all valid points), I'd say maybe my confidence has lowered a tad, so I'm now about 85% sure they're going to send the Wonder over.

On at least one of the PC cruises the Wonder stopped in Guanacaste, Costa Rica, so might that be a port they could use to satisfy the "distant foreign port" requirement?

 

[Sykes]

On the other hand, apparently I *am* definitely wrong about cruises to nowhere, as this document indicates they are an exception:

Cruises to nowhere on foreign-flagged vessels are illegal, but not because of the PVSA. It's actually because of a relatively obscure immigration issue. In 2016 the Customs and Border Protection ruled that cruises that don't dock in a foreign port technically never leave the United States (even if they enter international waters). As such, the workers on such a cruise ship would require authorization to work in the United States, which they don't have. (The D-1 visas issued to crewmembers only allow them to work in the US if they only enter the US temporarily while performing their duties.)

 

[HiStitch626]

They don't have to go through the Panama Canal if they're just repositioning the ship. A few cruise ships have just gone the long way. They're motoring the ships around the Caribbean already ... it wouldn't be that much more costly to slowly motor the Wonder around South America.

I just can't see DCL sending the Wonder around Cape Horn in the winter. It would add more than 4000 nm and about 2 weeks of sailing time through waters than can be rough in the summer and along a route where Disney has no port relationships.

 

[Sykes]

I just can't see DCL sending the Wonder around Cape Horn in the winter. It would add more than 4000 nm and about 3 weeks of sailing time through waters than can be rough in the summer and along a route where Disney has no port relationships.

The entire trip can be done in 3 weeks (the Celebrity Millennium did it in 21 days), so I'm not sure how it adds additional 3 weeks. The 4,000 miles and 3 weeks are pretty inconsequential--the ship already spends most of its time moving, and on August 24th they're bringing on hundreds of crew members that have to quarantine for 14 days anyway. Disney ships are already routinely porting places where they don't usually port (like Port Everglades). I'm not saying it's likely that they'll do it, but I don't buy expense as a reason why they wouldn't do it--it's not significantly higher than just sitting in the Caribbean. It's hard to see them bringing crew members back now if they don't plan to sail until the first Galveston itineraries in November.

What would almost certainly kill the West Coast season if they can't do the EBPC sailing. Getting it over to San Diego now would be inconsequential in terms of expense. Taking the Wonder out of service for 2-3 weeks with a full complement of crew in-between the West and East coast seasons would be an entirely different ball of wax.

 

[otten]

Alas, you are kinda wrong. A technical stop under the PVSA must include a bona fide opportunity for passengers to disembark. In fact, if a ship has a scheduled stop it cannot make due to weather, and that was the stop that satisfied the PVSA (think: A San Diego cruise to Cabo and back, and they miss Cabo entirely) they get fined, although they can appeal for act of God.

Does Grand Cayman count as a distant foreign point? If not I wonder if they made an act of God appeal for the missed Cartagena stop on the last Panama Canal sailing.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

Does Grand Cayman count as a distant foreign point? If not I wonder if they made an act of God appeal for the missed Cartagena stop on the last Panama Canal sailing.

GC does not. I suspect they did go Act of God on that cruise, and probably got it. March 2020 was pretty easily viewable at Act of God time.

Basically the Caribbean islands like GC are not DFP, but Aruba, Bonaire, and Curaçao are.

 

[HiStitch626]

The entire trip can be done in 3 weeks (the Celebrity Millennium did it in 21 days), so I'm not sure how it adds additional 3 weeks. The 4,000 miles and 3 weeks are pretty inconsequential--the ship already spends most of its time moving, and on August 24th they're bringing on hundreds of crew members that have to quarantine for 14 days anyway. Disney ships are already routinely porting places where they don't usually port (like Port Everglades). I'm not saying it's likely that they'll do it, but I don't buy expense as a reason why they wouldn't do it--it's not significantly higher than just sitting in the Caribbean. It's hard to see them bringing crew members back now if they don't plan to sail until the first Galveston itineraries in November.

What would almost certainly kill the West Coast season if they can't do the EBPC sailing. Getting it over to San Diego now would be inconsequential in terms of expense. Taking the Wonder out of service for 2-3 weeks with a full complement of crew in-between the West and East coast seasons would be an entirely different ball of wax.

That was a typo on my part, it should have said about 2 weeks.

I would have to disagree that the Wonder has spent most of her time moving, especially not at the speeds needed for that transit. She has been doing quite a bit of slow movement and anchoring over the last year. I know there have been some posts where people have mentioned that Wonder crew are being called back. However, the posts I have read seem to indicate the crew is coming to San Diego, so a trip around SA would not help the quarantine timeline.

She may go, but I think it would be through the Canal. If I were a DCL captain, there is no way I would want to be anywhere near Cape Horn in the winter.

 

[RedHead0186]

I just wanted to say to all of you providing this info about the PVSA/rules for closed loop and open loops sailings, I'm fascinated! I'm learning so much, thanks for providing such detailed and easy to understand info. I'm enjoying following this thread.

 

[dad of 3 addicted to DCL]

In order to embark in a U.S. port and disembark in a second U.S. port, the vessel must visit a distant foreign port outside of North America (Central America, Bermuda, the Bahamas, and all of the Caribbean except Aruba, Bonaire, and Curaçao, count as part of North America) per CFR 4.80a

 

[Ralph&Pam]

On at least one of the PC cruises the Wonder stopped in Guanacaste, Costa Rica, so might that be a port they could use to satisfy the "distant foreign port" requirement?

No. Costa Rica does not qualify. South America or the ABC islands are okay. Central America does not qualify.

 

[iannovich]

No. Costa Rica does not qualify. South America or the ABC islands are okay. Central America does not qualify.

No. Costa Rica does not qualify. South America or the ABC islands are okay. Central America does not qualify.

Yes, that's exactly right.

I was thinking Curaçao or some crazy random port in Venezuela... or maybe Trinidad & Tobago. I looked at the current restrictions for those locations and and Curaçao might be a contender (it looks like it would require a PCR test mid voyage and filling out some special forms), but between now and November who knows what might happen, so I wouldn't count on anywhere in particular.

I do think that every/any cruise out of San Diego that get's canceled lowers the chances... except /maybe/ the 2 day, which is the first scheduled cruise back, and really never seems to be that popular. It's a lotta coin for just 2 days... why not spend a couple bucks more (ha!) and take the 3... or the 4... or a 5! Next thing you know you're booking the 7 day. The 2 day seems to be a "I've just got one more to make Platinum!" cruise.

 

[JWelch62]

I do think that every/any cruise out of San Diego that get's canceled lowers the chances... except /maybe/ the 2 day, which is the first scheduled cruise back, and really never seems to be that popular. It's a lotta coin for just 2 days... why not spend a couple bucks more (ha!) and take the 3... or the 4... or a 5! Next thing you know you're booking the 7 day. The 2 day seems to be a "I've just got one more to make Platinum!" cruise.

The only times we've done the 2N is as part of a 2N/3N B2B. And we may have done that as a way to boost our Castaway status.

I've noticed that DCL no longer puts 2N and 3N cruises out of SD back to back.