Same-sex marriage

[Bluestars]

I think churches that discriminate shouldn't be sued, they have a right to believe whatever they want. I do think, however, that churches that discriminate will just die out on their own. Hate is a disease and it will destroy a church just as it destroys a person.

I completely agree with this. Why can't people just live and let live? Maybe someday.

 

[audrabolster]

If they think it's not brought up in elementary schools, they'd be wrong. Whether you allow them to marry or not, there are gay partners in committed relationships, some of whom raise children. The fact that they are not allowing them to make the commitment doesn't mean that the issue of gay couples won't be brought up in school.

In terms of the whole churches being forced to go against their beliefs, being sued for discrimination etc. - you choose to join a church, and you choose to sign up to its doctrine. No one's going to sue a church for something they believe because they don't have to join that church, or get married in it.

And speaking from a country where gay marriage is allowed (although it is called a civil union, but that's just the same as a heterosexual union), there are churches who are happy to marry homosexual couples and churches that aren't - but no one has been successfully sued for denying them the right to marry in a church which doesn't support heterosexual marriage (in the same way that some churches can refuse to marry unbaptised couples, or couples who do not live or were not born in that church's parish).

Sorry to say folks, but gay marriage is already a topic in some schools! What about the children of gay parents, they don't go to a special school for the children of gay parents! They are right there in the same elementary school. And like kids, they will talk about their parents!

And it has been discussed many, many times that churches will not have to perform gay marriages. They will not lose their tax status for choosing not to perform a gay marriage!

 

[Cindy F]

I think churches that discriminate shouldn't be sued, they have a right to believe whatever they want. I do think, however, that churches that discriminate will just die out on their own. Hate is a disease and it will destroy a church just as it destroys a person.

I totally agree.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

I guess the fact that they will be able to try is probably what makes the people in the church hesitant. I think they are afraid of things being forced on them, whether it is justified or not I do not know.

I know that is the same reasoning people in Florida voted for Amendment 2. Many were concerned about how the lifestyle will be taught in schools and what affect it will have on the churches. There was an incident in Canada I believe where a minister was arrested for preaching against the gay lifestyle and charged with a hate crime. Given the passion that many have regarding this issue I could see problems unless there were protections written into the laws for churches. We don't have children and our nieces and nephews are all in Catholic and Christian schools, so that issue isn't as much of a problem for us. However, we don't want to see our minister in an orange jumpsuit because he preached on the letters of Paul.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

I think churches that discriminate shouldn't be sued, they have a right to believe whatever they want. I do think, however, that churches that discriminate will just die out on their own. Hate is a disease and it will destroy a church just as it destroys a person.

Just because you disagree with the way a person chooses to live their life doesn't mean you hate them. I don't understand why any disagreement has to be considered "hate". I don't agree with people who choose not to go to church or believe in God, but I certainly don't hate them! If churches "hated" everyone who committed sin, they'd "hate" all their members!!

 

[SteveInBrooklyn]

Just because you disagree with the way a person chooses to live their life doesn't mean you hate them. I don't understand why any disagreement has to be considered "hate". I don't agree with people who choose not to go to church or believe in God, but I certainly don't hate them! If churches "hated" everyone who committed sin, they'd "hate" all their members!!

It's not just about sin. Sinners are allowed to marry in most churches, but not gay sinners. It is discrimination when the church treats one group of people differently, and that discrimination is based on hate.

 

[Uncle Remus]

I know that is the same reasoning people in Florida voted for Amendment 2. Many were concerned about how the lifestyle will be taught in schools and what affect it will have on the churches. There was an incident in Canada I believe where a minister was arrested for preaching against the gay lifestyle and charged with a hate crime. Given the passion that many have regarding this issue I could see problems unless there were protections written into the laws for churches. We don't have children and our nieces and nephews are all in Catholic and Christian schools, so that issue isn't as much of a problem for us. However, we don't want to see our minister in an orange jumpsuit because he preached on the letters of Paul.

Many people, Christian and non Christian believe Fred Pehelps to be a hateful preacher, he's not in an orange jumpsuit.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

It's not just about sin. Sinners are allowed to marry in most churches, but not gay sinners. It is discrimination when the church treats one group of people differently, and that discrimination is based on hate.

I'm well aware that you are not going to be swayed from this position because you seem to want to believe that everyone who does not jump for joy over gay marriage hates gay people but that doesn't make it true.

My sister had to take a year of marriage classes to get married, but we didn't. Should we cry discrimination?

 

[Laura]

I guess the fact that they will be able to try is probably what makes the people in the church hesitant. I think they are afraid of things being forced on them, whether it is justified or not I do not know.

I guess I just see those suits being thrown out/laughed out of court and not going anywhere. There's no legal basis for suing a church because they wouldn't let you get married.

 

[SteveInBrooklyn]

I'm well aware that you are not going to be swayed from this position because you seem to want to believe that everyone who does not jump for joy over gay marriage hates gay people but that doesn't make it true.

My sister had to take a year of marriage classes to get married, but we didn't. Should we cry discrimination?

Nobody's expecting you to jump for joy. But people shouldn't fight against gay marriage either. Those who do, whether they are religious institutions or not, have to be called out on it because hate is wrong...ALWAYS. Other than hate, what else could motivate people who actively fight against marriage rights for gays? Sorry, I just don't understand the reasoning. It's like saying "I think girls should not be allowed to get an education, but I am not a misogynist."

 

[Goofyluver]

I'm well aware that you are not going to be swayed from this position because you seem to want to believe that everyone who does not jump for joy over gay marriage hates gay people but that doesn't make it true.

My sister had to take a year of marriage classes to get married, but we didn't. Should we cry discrimination?

I don't know. Are ya' both heterosexual and married?

 

[Teresa Pitman]

I know that is the same reasoning people in Florida voted for Amendment 2. Many were concerned about how the lifestyle will be taught in schools and what affect it will have on the churches. There was an incident in Canada I believe where a minister was arrested for preaching against the gay lifestyle and charged with a hate crime. Given the passion that many have regarding this issue I could see problems unless there were protections written into the laws for churches. We don't have children and our nieces and nephews are all in Catholic and Christian schools, so that issue isn't as much of a problem for us. However, we don't want to see our minister in an orange jumpsuit because he preached on the letters of Paul.

I'm Canadian, and hadn't heard of a minister being arrested. Do you know when this happened? Even if it did, Canada's hate crime laws are quite separate from our marriage laws and were in place BEFORE the same-sex marriage ruling was made. I'm not overly enthusiastic about the hate crime laws, but in general there has to be a criminal element, not just talk. In other words, the minister would have to be saying something like "kill all the gays" (inciting violence) or something for it to be a hate crime, as I understand it.

One reason I think gay marriage is important is because it makes it easier for teachers and others to discuss these issues in school. Gay and lesbian families are a fact of life and ignoring them doesn't make them go away - it just makes life harder for their children.

Teresa

 

[mkingdomlvr]

Many people, Christian and non Christian believe Fred Pehelps to be a hateful preacher, he's not in an orange jumpsuit.

I agree about Mr Phelps-that's hate. I have never in all my years sitting in church heard the kind of things he says from any minister.

For us, it's about what happens next. If we do this today-what does it lead to tomorrow without something written in the law to make church people confident that their right to determine what their faith believes is sinful even if those things aren't considered sins by the world.

 

[Uncle Remus]

I agree about Mr Phelps-that's hate. I have never in all my years sitting in church heard the kind of things he says from any minister.

For us, it's about what happens next. If we do this today-what does it lead to tomorrow without something written in the law to make church people confident that their right to determine what their faith believes is sinful even if those things aren't considered sins by the world.

I'm sure you've heard of freedom of speech, that's one of our American values that protects even Fred Phelps.

 

[Master Mason]

It's not just about sin. Sinners are allowed to marry in most churches, but not gay sinners. It is discrimination when the church treats one group of people differently, and that discrimination is based on hate.

Belive it or not, discrimation does not require a basis in hate. You can lable it that if you want, but your lable doesn't make it true.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

Nobody's expecting you to jump for joy. But people shouldn't fight against gay marriage either. Those who do, whether they are religious institutions or not, have to be called out on it because hate is wrong...ALWAYS. Other than hate, what else could motivate people who actively fight against marriage rights for gays? Sorry, I just don't understand the reasoning. It's like saying "I think girls should not be allowed to get an education, but I am not a misogynist."

How do you define "actively fighting"? We believe that gambling is sinful. We don't hate people that choose to gamble, but we're not going to encourage it either. If my county puts a vote to having casinos in the area, I will vote against that, because I believe that gambling is sinful and leads people to problems. Does my "no" vote mean I'm actively fighting against the "right" to gamble? After all, many people believe that is part of their pursuit of happiness.

 

[SteveInBrooklyn]

I agree about Mr Phelps-that's hate. I have never in all my years sitting in church heard the kind of things he says from any minister.

For us, it's about what happens next. If we do this today-what does it lead to tomorrow without something written in the law to make church people confident that their right to determine what their faith believes is sinful even if those things aren't considered sins by the world.

Phelps is reading the same Bible that we all read. Yet, we all know he's wrong, eventhough he is a very smart man and an expert on scripture. His interpretation CAN'T be right. There simply is no room for such hatred in Christianity. We are all children of God, equal in His eyes. Black, white, gay, straight or otherwise. Taking one group of people and treating them differently and denying them their equal rights, it's WRONG. I don't care if Fred Phelps does it, or the Pope, or the Mufti of Jerusalem. It is HATE, period. Gay people are PEOPLE, and they are entitled to ALL the rights that all other people enjoy.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

I'm sure you've heard of freedom of speech, that's one of our American values that protects even Fred Phelps.

So far-but I'm sure it would be very easy to get people to vote for a law that would shut him up and put him in jail. Shoot, you'd get a lot of church going Christians that would jump at the chance to put that nut behind bars-especially those of us who have been witness to his garbage at military funerals.

I know people really dislike the whole "domino effect" thing, but it really can apply to a lot of situations.

Once gay marriage is legalized, what will stop laws being passed to remove the tax exempt status from churches who do not embrace gay marriage or who speak out against the gay lifestyle? Sure, everyone says "that'll never happen" but there's no guarantee.

 

[SteveInBrooklyn]

I'm not saying anybody on these boards is motivated by hate, but certain institutions are. Schools, places or work, courts, country clubs and yes, even churches. When it comes to discrimination, I believe nobody gets a pass.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

I'm Canadian, and hadn't heard of a minister being arrested. Do you know when this happened? Even if it did, Canada's hate crime laws are quite separate from our marriage laws and were in place BEFORE the same-sex marriage ruling was made. I'm not overly enthusiastic about the hate crime laws, but in general there has to be a criminal element, not just talk. In other words, the minister would have to be saying something like "kill all the gays" (inciting violence) or something for it to be a hate crime, as I understand it.

One reason I think gay marriage is important is because it makes it easier for teachers and others to discuss these issues in school. Gay and lesbian families are a fact of life and ignoring them doesn't make them go away - it just makes life harder for their children.

Teresa

My apologies to the Canadians! It was in Sweden. Sweden has a hate crimes law that prohibits criticizing homosexuality.